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      09-02-2010, 12:59 PM   #89
MONSTER11
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Originally Posted by quagmire View Post
This is perfect example of why I am sick of this shit.

I don't care what they originally called themselves. While I don't like the Tea Party, I am not going to go mudslinging. They call themselves the Tea Party now and that is what I will call them.

And monster, you show no respect for another persons views of the matter. You think that your view is the correct one and any other persons view makes them insane or stupid or something. In my view, the government buying GM Corporations good assets have been a good thing. GM is now profitable and doing relatively well. And as shown a couple weeks ago, the steps to GM becoming public again has been taken with the filing of the IPO and the government will be selling its equity in GM. I also believe that there needs to be some kind of protectionism in our country. Now nothing like Japan's or South Korea's policy, but you can't just let our industry go the way of the dodo and be dependent on foreign companies for our products. No one could tell us how letting GM and Chrysler go under would have effect the industry. Would it pull Ford under as well? How about the suppliers? The economy is in a state where it could not absorb the huge loss. You can't let the free market go unchecked. We learned this lesson right now with our current recession. There needs to be regulation. There can't be too much regulation, but there needs to be some. There needs to be a balance between protectionism and the free market. We need to find it. We can't go to either extreme.

Now that is my opinion and you might disagree which is fine. But, I wish I would not be called insane, stupid, etc because of our differing opinions and view points
I don't recall calling anyone stupid... Didn't someone once say that the definition of insanity is trying the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result???
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      09-02-2010, 01:01 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by MJC///M3 View Post
Denver's response to everything is "keep marching with the teabaggers"...i was told this in an above post as well.

there is no sense in arguing bud.....looks like the kool aid is flowing via intravenous needle in the rocky mountains.
Yeah, I had much more to say but figured it was going to waste more energy then it is worth... I really just don't understand how anyone could think the way most liberals do.
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      09-02-2010, 01:05 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by radix View Post
One tired euphemism begets another.

Each side is just trying to associate their respective opponents' position with cargo-cult thinking. That's all the debate has come to. Sad.
The most I have seen of this lately is the liberal media labeling every conservative a racist.
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      09-02-2010, 01:22 PM   #92
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I don't recall calling anyone stupid... Didn't someone once say that the definition of insanity is trying the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result???
No you did not, but I see it in the way you post. You stated in the post I quoted that how can any sane person support such a thing. That shows intolerance to others views. People are different. They have different opinions, different view points, different ideals, etc. So while you may be against government takeover of GM and others, doesn't mean your opinion is correct and others who supported such action are wrong and insane. I see you as no better then Denver. Both of you are mudslinging. There is no civil debate here. There is no tolerance of others opinions. You calling Obama names shows that as well. Obama is far from a socialist, jackass, d-bag, etc. Hell, our Democrats are not that far left compared to the rest of the world. Enough of the McCarthy scare technics. You may disagree with his policies, but that doesn't make him a jackass, d-bag, and a socialist, etc.

This brings to me another point, I fucking hate how politicians use fear to sell their agenda. My god. Stop with the rhetoric of Obama being a muslim, etc. Why do you care if Obama is a muslim? Islam is not the enemy. People who are muslim are not the enemy. Religion is not the enemy. The people who twist the meaning of Islam to their radical beliefs are the enemy. Bin Laden, Al Qaeda, etc. Anyone who uses religion as a justification to commit heinous acts are our enemy( christianity is not excluded). Just stop using fear and scare technics. Both sides are guilty of this.
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      09-02-2010, 01:37 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by quagmire View Post
No you did not, but I see it in the way you post. You stated in the post I quoted that how can any sane person support such a thing. That shows intolerance to others views. People are different. They have different opinions, different view points, different ideals, etc. So while you may be against government takeover of GM and others, doesn't mean your opinion is correct and others who supported such action are wrong and insane. I see you as no better then Denver. Both of you are mudslinging. There is no civil debate here. There is no tolerance of others opinions. You calling Obama names shows that as well. Obama is far from a socialist, jackass, d-bag, etc. Hell, our Democrats are not that far left compared to the rest of the world. Enough of the McCarthy scare technics. You may disagree with his policies, but that doesn't make him a jackass, d-bag, and a socialist, etc.

This brings to me another point, I fucking hate how politicians use fear to sell their agenda. My god. Stop with the rhetoric of Obama being a muslim, etc. Why do you care if Obama is a muslim? Islam is not the enemy. People who are muslim are not the enemy. Religion is not the enemy. The people who twist the meaning of Islam to their radical beliefs are the enemy. Bin Laden, Al Qaeda, etc. Anyone who uses religion as a justification to commit heinous acts are our enemy( christianity is not excluded). Just stop using fear and scare technics. Both sides are guilty of this.
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      09-02-2010, 01:45 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by MJC///M3 View Post
Might wanna go back and read facts...before you post this
You might want to not make stupid retorts with no value added to the discussion. I listed actual tangible things that the administration has done, none of this is fluff.
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      09-02-2010, 02:19 PM   #95
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You might want to not make stupid retorts with no value added to the discussion. I listed actual tangible things that the administration has done, none of this is fluff.
seriously...you are my hero.
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      09-02-2010, 05:58 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by radix View Post
One tired euphemism begets another.

Each side is just trying to associate their respective opponents' position with cargo-cult thinking. That's all the debate has come to. Sad.
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      09-02-2010, 07:35 PM   #97
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But I'll gladly have him in the office over the last administration.
Don't get too comfortable. He's a failed experiment and will be gone soon enough. One term and out, America wakes up.

p.s. Bush is not the President anymore. Nobama owns it ALL!
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      09-02-2010, 10:55 PM   #98
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Bush admitted his "strategy" of free market economy may have been wrong and short sighted. Yes, the market should be free. But it still needs governance and oversight. Without it, you get what made the financial industry nearly collapse.

One thing Obama's done worth while? Are you serious? How about stem cells for one? It's too bad that idiot judge put a temporary road block on it last week. We have the technology to cure spinal injuries and genetic defects that is being setback because of the idealism of a few ultra powerful conservatives and the legacies they've left behind.

Here's another important decision Obama's made. How about appointing a moderate to the Supreme Court instead of a super liberal? Even many right wingers agree she was a good choice. Unfortunately, W's legacy of appointing ultra conservatives to the supreme court will set this country back for the next 30 years.
While mildly interesting to read this thread, i must comment on the bolded statement above. People like you who think that the government needs to set rules, policy, and govern business rather than teach the american public how to govern their own finances are more responsible for the near collapse than anything else. People living outside of their means are the cause of our current economy and the so called need for government intervention. It all starts for the american public being accountable for their actions.

I still say that only the Americans who pay taxes should be able to vote. that would solve many problems. No representation without taxation. If you don't contribute to keeping the boat floating, you get no say as to where it's going.
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      09-03-2010, 05:01 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by OldArmy View Post
Don't get too comfortable. He's a failed experiment and will be gone soon enough. One term and out, America wakes up.

p.s. Bush is not the President anymore. Nobama owns it ALL!
You're making a bold assumption that he will not get re-elected. He still has two years to go. A lot can happen in two years, as you're well aware of. Popularity rises and falls according to many, many variables. Many things will happen in two years. Will they be good or bad? Time will tell. With the randomness of today, it is getting harder to extrapolate what the future outcome will be.

Remember how the majority of people did not want Bush in the office again for a second term, but he got it anyway? That possibility is still true here. It's also possible that his popularity will increase, while there is a possibility that it will take a huge turn for the worse and he will not get re-elected based upon all sorts of factors (performance, disasters, etc.).

The fact of the matter is, we're stuck with Obama for two more years. You can disagree with him, you can agree with him, you can not care, etc. Regardless, you should still hope that he succeeds as a president and helps make the right decisions regardless of your political status. Being a congressman, president, etc. should be about what is right for the people both fiscally and morally, not what is right for your political party.


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Originally Posted by quagmire View Post
Overall, I am sick of politics. I am sick of this partisanship. The Republicans are controlled by the extremists of the party, the Democrats have no balls, and the Tea Party is a tool. As already demonstrated in this thread, neither side is being respectful about the differing view points. Our government is broken and there is no fix in sight.
Now that's what I'm talking about.

Fuck. Political. Parties. They naturally occur based upon peoples' views, but now they're just getting ridiculous. When I hear someone say "I fucking hate democrats," or "I fucking hate republicans, I'll NEVER vote republican," I just laugh. It's that single-mindedness and "I refuse to look at things in both ways" attitude that is going to fuck us over. It's why we can't trust the news anymore. It's why things are reported incorrectly. It's what's gonna create a split society full of misinformed people.

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      09-03-2010, 07:50 PM   #100
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You're making a bold assumption that he will not get re-elected.
It's hardly a bold prognostication, it's almost certain to any that are even casual observers of our political scene. He's going to lose the house in a few months and quite possibly the senate. Then not only will his misguided agenda be derailed but the investigations and defunding of what he has done will do him in. His base, having gotten nothing from him will stay home in droves come the election and, out he goes. Of course, I think his hold on the party faithful is so tenuous now that Billary will challenge him successfully in the primary so, to me, it's a foregone conclusion that he's a one-termer. Too many challenges heaped on top of his inherent lack of ability and poor performance. Sooner is better and no, I do not wish him success in fulfilling his agenda.
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      09-06-2010, 03:26 PM   #101
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Wow, been a few days since I checked back on this. It seems to have gone completely off topic. I was asking about the future of our country with regard to our efforts in Afghanistan but it looks like it has took a turn for the worse. I too hate these political debates, it's like Pepsi v. Coke. In the end who gives a shit, neither one is good for you.
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      09-18-2010, 11:53 PM   #102
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I'll take our current president over the last one that presided over the worst 8 years in America's history any day of week. At least he doesn't appear to be a bumbling idiot when he speaks.

When he speaks without a teleprompter he sounds pretty pathetic. Look around youtube.
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      09-19-2010, 07:05 AM   #103
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Yup, the inexperience still shows every day. Don't you just love the jive, metrosexual, I'm one-of-the-peeps speaking style?

Worst eight years in our history? Take a look around, Nobama is already working on the worst two I've seen.

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When he speaks without a teleprompter he sounds pretty pathetic. Look around youtube.
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      09-20-2010, 11:07 AM   #104
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The fact of the matter is, we're stuck with Obama for two more years. You can disagree with him, you can agree with him, you can not care, etc. Regardless, you should still hope that he succeeds as a president and helps make the right decisions regardless of your political status. Being a congressman, president, etc. should be about what is right for the people both fiscally and morally, not what is right for your political party.

I can root for the countries' success all I want, but that doesn't change the fact that I believe that his policies are bad for the country. So no, I will not root for Barack Obama to have a successful presidency because this would mean that his agenda will be successful, which would mean that the country will be set up for failure in the future.

The liberals shout "How can you go against what the man says before he's even been in office very long". I'll tell you why; We don't agree with his views on how a country should be run. We know what his values are. We know what his policies are. We know what he wants to do. We have our views of what his policies will do to the country. We've said all of this from the very beginning (go read the old posts, when the real leftists were here kissing Obama's feet), and it's never going to change.

Or even better "How can you blame Obama, it's all Bush's fault. He's cleaning up the mess". Shove it where the sun doesn't shine.

Will I root for his presidency to be a success based on dealing with major catastrophes and disasters? Of course.
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      09-21-2010, 04:48 PM   #105
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Wow, been a few days since I checked back on this. It seems to have gone completely off topic. I was asking about the future of our country with regard to our efforts in Afghanistan but it looks like it has took a turn for the worse. I too hate these political debates, it's like Pepsi v. Coke. In the end who gives a shit, neither one is good for you.

Funny how people completely hijacked Chest Rockwell's original post about "post-war Iraq" without it even making 5 responses in. Even more disturbing is how people's responses here to Obama vs. Bush, democrats vs republicans perfectly mirrors the things we see and hear from congress these days, mainly taking cheap shots and throwing half-truths/lies around to smear each other, without much co-existence and bipartisan assistance at all. kind of a sad state of things no?

so far in this thread probably only SonnyJack's and TMNT's responses have been the most constructive and mature, while everyone else seems to be more interested in pulling out whatever shots they can take. not saying it hasn't made for an interesting read, but it depresses me to see people only pointing out mistakes, poor performance, assumptions without fully reading both sides of the story. i say "without fully reading and understanding both sides" because I believe unless you're a politician in the thick of things, you'll never fully know what goes on in all the details of the agendas. us as citizens can only read as much as what we're told, which brings me back to the point about how both sides these days only throw around half-truths and lies at each other to influence the voters.

as for me, young adult between 25-30, i don't consider myself strictly dem or rep. i'd rather take a look at each candidate and decide on their beliefs. as for the past election, i didnt' vote. some might say i'm a bad citizen for not participating in what might be one of the most important elections ever, but i don't think it's right to vote for someone just because you have to. While I respect McCain and believe he could've been a good candidate, i think he got too involved in trying to take a quick route to winning the elections via name calling type behavior, etc, including the poor decision of choosing Palin as his running mate. The real McCain finally showed up during the speech he made after losing the elections, thanking his supporters and asking everyone to support the president, because afterall, Obama was now their president too.

And while I think Obama was a fresh candidate, I didn't think he had enough experience or trophies under his belt to fully handle the white house. It was a lot of hype machine. So i decided to just not vote and sit this one out. I didn't like either candidate enough.

As to the original post and topic of this entire thread, I don't think Iraq is fully ready for an independent government. Even recently, all the reports came out about all the bombings, and how this has actually been one of the worse months in the past year in terms of deaths. But at the same time, I think it was time for us to leave. Primarily because personally I don't think it was a war we should've started in the first place. The war should have been with Afghanistan, chasing down Osama. But instead, due to other agendas in the administration, we completely lost track of priorities and invaded Iraq. It could have been for legitimate reasons, sure, but we'll never know. Instead we got stuck in a war that we didn't want to be in, that was created artificially. At the end of the day, are we, as US citizens, and world citizens, better off now that we had this war? Are the civilians in Iraq better off too (some might say yes, with Saddam gone, but how do we really know)? Personally I don't think so. What good has come out of it?
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