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      09-13-2010, 05:23 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by hks786 View Post
To understand the Quran you must read the whole book and read about the life of our holy prophet which explains the teachings of the Quran. In the life of our prophet I cannot emphasize enough about his teachings of justice, peace, patience etc.
.
Fantastic idea. Lets see what Big Mo has to say in the Haddith about apostates...

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Allah's Apostle said, "The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: In Qisas for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (apostate) and leaves the Muslims."Sahih al-Bukhari, 9:83:17
Is Mohommad wrong?


Like the bible, the Koran can be used to support several opposed viewpoints. There are many verses encouraging tolerence and peace. It just depends where you want to put your emphasis. Neither interpertation, violent or peaceful, is incorrect though- both can be supported. Fortunately, most people are good and peaceful, and try to avoid violence, often for no other reason than their own well-being and happiness. Quite a few don't though, and having what you believe is a mandate from the creator of the universe to commit violence and terrorize unblievers is dangerous. Thinking the creator will greatly reward you for it is even more dangerous.



the parts of the Koran that allow violence to forward the spread of Islam, are the reason that few of the moderates are prepared to condemn the radicals for their terrorist actions. They recognize that what the radicals are doing is permitted by the Koran; they just don't think it's the right action for them personally, or that perhaps it isn't the best way to spread Islam. It becomes a question not of whether or not the terrorism is ok, but whether or not it is the best method.

Last edited by carve; 09-13-2010 at 05:36 PM.
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      09-13-2010, 05:25 PM   #90
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this is really pointless...
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      09-13-2010, 05:26 PM   #91
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this is really pointless...
Nobody is making you read it. Thanks for the contribution though.
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      09-13-2010, 05:27 PM   #92
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      09-13-2010, 05:30 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by carve View Post
Nobody is making you read it. Thanks for the contribution though.
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      09-13-2010, 05:43 PM   #94
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Really, I'm not going to reply again. I have analysed everything you have said with reason and clear explanations. However, you have totally deserted everything I have said and just want to paste english translations of a 1400 year book/hadiths.

I know that you just want people to see little quotes you are posting so that they too think what you think of Islam that is is violent etc. That's pathetic. Grow up.

The way you act shows you want to impose on everyone else the idea that Islam is not a religion but rather a group of people and everytime they fuck up you can accuse the religion of being violent etc. Which is a good idea because people will always fuck up and you can forever badmouth the religion. However, most people see beyond this.

If you want to talk about serious issues, please tell me your thoughts on the interpretation of right/wrong? After all that is central to nearly all disputes all over the world, Islam or otherwise we cannot universally agree who is right/wrong. So tell me then how do we decide?
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      09-13-2010, 05:51 PM   #95
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Ok I see you have now edited your post to answer some of my points. I am not going to reply because we have now reached the point where we can define where we disagree.

You say: the Quran can be read however you want to. Some good parts and bad parts and that is a problem.

I say: Read my previous post. You are translating the book and hadiths wrong and without context which is 2 very huge mistakes. It doesnt make sense for Islam to contradict itself, rather the fault is with you as I have told you what errors you are making.

You are taking tiny portions of the quran and hadiths are trying to make them look violent just like people who use it to commit acts of terror. Its a huge insult to people who do understand Islam and follow it peacefully. Why do the majority of people follow it peacefully? Because it is a peaceful religion. You are always banging on about numbers so lets think why most muslims across the world have so many good qualities and are peaceful even to non-muslims? Because Islam DOES teach us to be peaceful and NOT violent/angry.

Also, when anyone writes a book they write it with the purpose of it being clear and giving a message without it having ambigious or conflicting messages. The only reason the Bible is contradicting is because it is not a BOOK but a library of 66 or 72 books written by many people over time depending on what your beliefs are. The Quran has 1 author and not many. It is illogical that a book would tell you about such kindness to everyone in all you actions even animals like ants and then tell you to kill people.

The book is not open to interpretation and no book on this earth is. The reason for writing it actually is to give your message across to people so that they know clearly what your message/teachings/point is. However, people do MISINTERPRET books and laws to suit themselves.

Now you can see I have provided explanation as to what kind of religion Islam is and I have also proven beyond doubt why there are people committing acts of terror across the world. There are reasons, however, the reason is NOT Islam.

So in conclusion, everyone here can see the tricks you are trying to pull here. It is not an intelligent debate at all. Therefore, I have made my point as concise as I can and I feel that anything you say has already been addressed in previous posts. So unless there is anything new, I am out of this. If anyone has any genuine questions they can post or PM me anytime.
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      09-13-2010, 06:13 PM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hks786 View Post
Really, I'm not going to reply again. I have analysed everything you have said with reason and clear explanations. However, you have totally deserted everything I have said and just want to paste english translations of a 1400 year book/hadiths.

I know that you just want people to see little quotes you are posting so that they too think what you think of Islam that is is violent etc. That's pathetic. Grow up.

The way you act shows you want to impose on everyone else the idea that Islam is not a religion but rather a group of people and everytime they fuck up you can accuse the religion of being violent etc. Which is a good idea because people will always fuck up and you can forever badmouth the religion. However, most people see beyond this.

If you want to talk about serious issues, please tell me your thoughts on the interpretation of right/wrong? After all that is central to nearly all disputes all over the world, Islam or otherwise we cannot universally agree who is right/wrong. So tell me then how do we decide?
I think that the majority of people in our country already think islam is violent. The show of fear world wide with regards to this one guy burning a few Qurans is evidence of that.

I have not read the Quran (apparently no one can unless you read Arabic??) And while Carve may be conveniently taking a few verses out of context he's in fact illustrating what the "few" extremists do to serve their agenda. The problem with that is that the "many" peaceful muslims don't discourage or stand against the extremists.

This jack ass pastor is a perfect example. He proposed a stupid idea and masses of people; Americans, Christians, Jews, Catholics and others stepped in to try and change the mind of this simpleton who was well within his US rights to burn any book he wanted. Maybe it's media bias or what not, but i don't see muslim leaders taking a stand on peace and asking terrorist groups to not kill innocent people with suicide or car bombs.

After all i think that we can all agree that it's wrong to murder innocent people.
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      09-13-2010, 06:52 PM   #97
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Please, show me the mass protest by moderate muslims against the violent actions of the radicals. Just one instance would be nice, many might be effective. There can only be one of two reasons it doesn't happen, the reason you don't do it. You are either afraid (which I understand) or you believe the actions to be acceptable. Which is it?
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      09-13-2010, 07:03 PM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OldArmy View Post
Please, show me the mass protest by moderate muslims against the violent actions of the radicals. Just one instance would be nice, many might be effective. There can only be one of two reasons it doesn't happen, the reason you don't do it. You are either afraid (which I understand) or you believe the actions to be acceptable. Which is it?
I don't see Christians around the world protesting the Lord's Resistance Army. By your reasoning, and assuming you are Christian, then either you are afraid of them, or you find their actions acceptable. Which is it?

I would posit that most moderate peaceful people will choose the path of least resistance. The don't concern themselves with the actions of Osama bin Laden or Eric Rudolph enough to protest, because they are too busy living their lives as best they can. They are more concerned with putting food in their children than they are with radical extremism, either Christian or Islamist.
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      09-13-2010, 07:56 PM   #99
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This post is for those muslims who whine because they are so misunderstood. They are unhappy that clear-eyed westerners and those that want to live in the 21st century recognize the existential threat of Islam. Since "moderates" (whatever that means) say nothing, do nothing, issue no censure for the acts of radical islamists we must assume that muslims are either afraid or supportive. Is there another choice?

Surely you're not trying to equate the horror of radical islam with the actions of some freaks claiming a bizarre interpretation of christianity? On sheer number alone radical islam wins in a runaway.

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Originally Posted by radix View Post
I don't see Christians around the world protesting the Lord's Resistance Army. By your reasoning, and assuming you are Christian, then either you are afraid of them, or you find their actions acceptable. Which is it?

I would posit that most moderate peaceful people will choose the path of least resistance. The don't concern themselves with the actions of Osama bin Laden or Eric Rudolph enough to protest, because they are too busy living their lives as best they can. They are more concerned with putting food in their children than they are with radical extremism, either Christian or Islamist.
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      09-13-2010, 08:17 PM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OldArmy View Post
This post is for those muslims who whine because they are so misunderstood. They are unhappy that clear-eyed westerners and those that want to live in the 21st century recognize the existential threat of Islam. Since "moderates" (whatever that means) say nothing, do nothing, issue no censure for the acts of radical islamists we must assume that muslims are either afraid or supportive. Is there another choice?
Yes, there is another choice.

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Originally Posted by OldArmy View Post
Surely you're not trying to equate the horror of radical islam with the actions of some freaks claiming a bizarre interpretation of christianity? On sheer number alone radical islam wins in a runaway.
That is precisely what I'm doing. What have you done to protest the radical Christians? If the answer is nothing, then perhaps you will see that there are more choices than the two you've referred to (fear/support).
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      09-13-2010, 09:16 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by OldArmy View Post
Please, show me the mass protest by moderate muslims against the violent actions of the radicals. Just one instance would be nice, many might be effective. There can only be one of two reasons it doesn't happen, the reason you don't do it. You are either afraid (which I understand) or you believe the actions to be acceptable. Which is it?
Actually you have got it COMPLETELY WRONG. Tell me the truth how many mosques have you visited? When did you read the Quran and teachings of our prophet? When did you read our books, watch DVDs or anything?

The real problem is you people dont know beceause you dont check. In my particular city there are around 7/8 mosques and I can tell you comfortably that even the small mosques have at least a couple of hundred worshipers just on friday prayers alone. At the large city mosque we have around 800 people every week too. If you visit the mosques every week this behaviour is condemned, but you never hear this on CNN news do you?

Let's not forget that our books and teachings speak so CLEARLY against oppressing people and it is almost common sense to all muslims 1.5 billion strong that killing innocent people is wrong. It is common sense to us as it is to every human across the world. However ,there is a minority world population (muslim and non-muslim) that will always be fighting and spilling blood and then hide behind reasons such as religion or Bush hid behind reasons like WMD etc. This is nothing new.

However, people like you never find out because you dont check. You only care what you hear in the news and our efforts dont really make the news anyway. We have books, DVDs, events, schools, mosques, TV channels, websites etc.

This is what really PISSES me off. Peoples' opinions are formed loosely around what they hear in the news these days. You judge a few "muslim" leaders around the world for not taking enough action and think it is the fault of muslims and ISLAM as a religion.

This is the biggest BS ever. To be honest, people should get off their ass and bloody check for themselves and not just rely on people making effort to teach you. How about you pick up a book yourself?

You see this is what I mean just because people think they are right it doesnt mean they are. You think it is the sole responsibiltiy of muslims to teach you Islam properly but I think you should stop being lazy. You should have enough sense to not judge Islam til you know it properly. Dont tell me I'm doing a bad job convincing the masses to not commit acts of terror.
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      09-13-2010, 09:29 PM   #102
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Also, if you want to analyse the situation think about it and tell me the REAL reason why people are running around committing acts of terror and the real reason why people like Bush/Blair do the same thing but in another name?

Is it really so much about religion? IMO (and I am entitled to that opinion) is it about the violent part of human nature to disagree over things like land, laws and power. We all know that as humans we can be territorial and this is how lands were formed in the first place, through wars.

Al-Queda and other terror organisations have demands that have absolutely nothing to do with religion. They are not even trying to spread Islam at all, never mind spread it violently. There only interests lie in issues like Palestine/Israel, Iraq, Afghanistan etc. Whether they are right/wrong about those issues is irrelevant. To make a point about it these people kill innocents and commit terrible acts like bombings. That is the real reason they are doing what they are doing. THEN, to justify it they look desperately in Islam and the Quran and find little pieces that they can manipulate to justify their acts and to gain more support from the Muslim community that CONDEMNS their acts.

Think about it. That is the real reason. Noone blows themselves up for no reason. Only sometimes people like Bin Laden speak about spreading Islam, but overall 9/10 times he has spoken about his outrage at the wars in Iraq, Afghanistan and what is happening in Palestine. They are just hiding behind Islam to justify what they do.
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      09-13-2010, 11:10 PM   #103
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here is a question for ya. If the acts of people like Bin Laden are so condemned by the Muslim community, why do they harbor and assist in hiding him? Why not make a real statement of peace by turning him in or assisting in his capture? Why not assist in the capture of all the major terrorist groups?
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      09-14-2010, 03:09 AM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MP0WER View Post
I think that the majority of people in our country already think islam is violent. The show of fear world wide with regards to this one guy burning a few Qurans is evidence of that.

I have not read the Quran (apparently no one can unless you read Arabic??) And while Carve may be conveniently taking a few verses out of context he's in fact illustrating what the "few" extremists do to serve their agenda. The problem with that is that the "many" peaceful muslims don't discourage or stand against the extremists.

This jack ass pastor is a perfect example. He proposed a stupid idea and masses of people; Americans, Christians, Jews, Catholics and others stepped in to try and change the mind of this simpleton who was well within his US rights to burn any book he wanted. Maybe it's media bias or what not, but i don't see muslim leaders taking a stand on peace and asking terrorist groups to not kill innocent people with suicide or car bombs.

After all i think that we can all agree that it's wrong to murder innocent people.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OldArmy View Post
Please, show me the mass protest by moderate muslims against the violent actions of the radicals. Just one instance would be nice, many might be effective. There can only be one of two reasons it doesn't happen, the reason you don't do it. You are either afraid (which I understand) or you believe the actions to be acceptable. Which is it?

Here is one instance...

http://www.aftenposten.no/english/lo...icle924678.ece

and another....

http://www.alarabiya.net/articles/2009/12/29/95697.html

and another....

http://www.marcgopin.com/?p=864



If you actually visit the sites, you'll notice its protests from Muslims from all over the world.
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      09-14-2010, 03:44 AM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MP0WER View Post
here is a question for ya. If the acts of people like Bin Laden are so condemned by the Muslim community, why do they harbor and assist in hiding him? Why not make a real statement of peace by turning him in or assisting in his capture? Why not assist in the capture of all the major terrorist groups?

The Taliban follow a tribal code called Pashtunwali. One of the principles is Nanawatai, which OBL probably fell into. Another reason they protected him is because he fought against the Russians and on top of that he brought electricity into Kandahar, Afghanistan.

Here is a really interesting clip from 2001... FWIW, the Fmr. Taliban Ambassador runs MAJORITY of US contracts in Afghanistan!

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      09-14-2010, 06:39 AM   #106
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You own the actions of radical islamists, you are in the club. Your club members are a danger to what I hold dear. You can't slide off and away from the problem, it is yours to solve. If you don't the situation will only get worse and I guarantee that no one will be happy with the result when the west believes it is truly threatened. While killing large numbers of islamists has been momentarily satisfying, it's not an approach that can be sustained or that will generate a final fix. Only muslims can get this right.

Unfortunately for your and your argument, you don't know dick about me, where I've been or what I've done. I would posit that I've walked more ground in south and southwest asia and africa than you have. Draw a line from Niger to Somalia to Islamabad and then up into the "stans" and I've been there. And yes, I've read the doctrine and done the investigation and my opinion is based in fact, not news bites or pulp news. Islam in practice is an aggressive, backward-looking and malevolent method of social control.

Oh yeah, Bush and Blair are not in charge anymore.

And if "they" are hiding behind Islam maybe you should call them out in the light--but you don't, hence my original question.

BTW--were you at the Birmingham protests against your own returning soldiers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hks786 View Post
Also, if you want to analyse the situation think about it and tell me the REAL reason why people are running around committing acts of terror and the real reason why people like Bush/Blair do the same thing but in another name?

Is it really so much about religion? IMO (and I am entitled to that opinion) is it about the violent part of human nature to disagree over things like land, laws and power. We all know that as humans we can be territorial and this is how lands were formed in the first place, through wars.

Al-Queda and other terror organisations have demands that have absolutely nothing to do with religion. They are not even trying to spread Islam at all, never mind spread it violently. There only interests lie in issues like Palestine/Israel, Iraq, Afghanistan etc. Whether they are right/wrong about those issues is irrelevant. To make a point about it these people kill innocents and commit terrible acts like bombings. That is the real reason they are doing what they are doing. THEN, to justify it they look desperately in Islam and the Quran and find little pieces that they can manipulate to justify their acts and to gain more support from the Muslim community that CONDEMNS their acts.

Think about it. That is the real reason. Noone blows themselves up for no reason. Only sometimes people like Bin Laden speak about spreading Islam, but overall 9/10 times he has spoken about his outrage at the wars in Iraq, Afghanistan and what is happening in Palestine. They are just hiding behind Islam to justify what they do.

Last edited by OldArmy; 09-14-2010 at 07:29 AM.
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      09-14-2010, 08:13 AM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MP0WER View Post
here is a question for ya. If the acts of people like Bin Laden are so condemned by the Muslim community, why do they harbor and assist in hiding him? Why not make a real statement of peace by turning him in or assisting in his capture? Why not assist in the capture of all the major terrorist groups?
I have already told you that the muslim population is 1.5bn strong across the world. You tell me how many of us muslims actually have control over what is happening in Afghanistan?

We already armies in the country for years and they havent managed to find him. What the hell do you want us muslims to do? Bear in mind that our bloody taxes go to these illegal wars. Muslims as a general population have ZERO control over politicians and corrupt leaders and they do not represent us.

You are really failing to prove that this mess is caused by a) Islam or b) the wider muslim population.

However, I proved beyond doubt that we have condemned these actions so widely yet the world do not take notice because they only care about what they hear in the media. It seems today the media today is a reflection of what is happening in the world today even though it doesnt really capture small events, and the true thoughts/feelings/attitudes of people.


Quote:
Originally Posted by OldArmy View Post
You own the actions of radical islamists, you are in the club. Your club members are a danger to what I hold dear. You can't slide off and away from the problem, it is yours to solve. If you don't the situation will only get worse and I guarantee that no one will be happy with the result when the west believes it is truly threatened. While killing large numbers of islamists has been momentarily satisfying, it's not an approach that can be sustained or that will generate a final fix. Only muslims can get this right.

Unfortunately for your and your argument, you don't know dick about me, where I've been or what I've done. I would posit that I've walked more ground in south and southwest asia and africa than you have. Draw a line from Niger to Somalia to Islamabad and then up into the "stans" and I've been there. And yes, I've read the doctrine and done the investigation and my opinion is based in fact, not news bites or pulp news. Islam in practice is an aggressive, backward-looking and malevolent method of social control.

Oh yeah, Bush and Blair are not in charge anymore.

And if "they" are hiding behind Islam maybe you should call them out in the light--but you don't, hence my original question.

BTW--were you at the Birmingham protests against your own returning soldiers?
1. I'm sorry but you cannot prove that they are in "our club" and I honestly feel embarassed for you reading what you are writing since you say you have extensive knowledge of "muslim" regions in Asia. I have explained to you that you cannot blame someone else for another persons wrong doings. That is such a simple concept that has nothing to do with Islam.

You cannot blame parents every time their kids fuck up. Why not? because even though they are in the same "club" (family) everyone is responsible for their own actions. It's the same reason you cannot put me in jail for Bin Ladens actions, because I have NOTHING to do with terrorism and condemn it more than you will ever know.

There mere fact that you say you visited Asia and Africa etc. is irrelevant. Even after visiting you still do not understand the efforts of good Muslims across the world that we make in our mosques every day and through other media like TV channels, DVDs, book, events etc. That is a huge mistake on your part.

Bottom line: You cannot hold Islam as a religion (inanimate object incapable of acting for itself) or the wider muslim population responsible for terrorism happening or preventing terrorism. You have also FAILED to address the real reasons why terrorism is happening, I can assure you it has nothing to do with Islam.

2. Your thoughts on Islam are still only your opinion and this does not make it fact. Even after extensive investigations not everyone will agree on the same thing and will always have differing opinions. Just the fact that you say you have "investigated" the religion and certain "muslim" regions of the world does not make your opinion any more valid.

There is still noone here that can address my original question about determining what is right/wrong. As I have said many times the concept of right/wrong is based on laws/traditions and these have changed over history and will change again. I know your childrens children will have different opinions that you and this means that when you say Islam is wrong it is merely your opinion.

You say it is barbaric, old-fashioned etc. but that doesnt mean it actually is. Look at your own countries and you will see that you are failing in so many ways when it comes to dealing with problems like drugs, alcohol, sexualy transmitted diseases, crime etc. Call Islam what you want but really it is just a different approach to life than the other approaches that exist.
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      09-14-2010, 09:56 AM   #108
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Ok I see you have now edited your post to answer some of my points. I am not going to reply because we have now reached the point where we can define where we disagree.

You say: the Quran can be read however you want to. Some good parts and bad parts and that is a problem.

I say: Read my previous post. You are translating the book and hadiths wrong and without context which is 2 very huge mistakes. It doesnt make sense for Islam to contradict itself, rather the fault is with you as I have told you what errors you are making.
Don't just say "nuh uh". Put it in context for me. In what context is it OK to kill apostates? In what context is it OK to fight those who disbelieve Allah?

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You are taking tiny portions of the quran and hadiths are trying to make them look violent just like people who use it to commit acts of terror. Its a huge insult to people who do understand Islam and follow it peacefully. Why do the majority of people follow it peacefully? Because it is a peaceful religion. You are always banging on about numbers so lets think why most muslims across the world have so many good qualities and are peaceful even to non-muslims? Because Islam DOES teach us to be peaceful and NOT violent/angry.
Wow...you'd think the Muslims who "take tiny portions of the quaran an haddiths...to commit acts of terror" would be your primary concern. This isn't something I started here. Peaceful is as peaceful does, and anytime there is something merely offensive to Islam, many, many Muslims errupt with violence, and the non-violent ones don't do much to stop it.

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Also, when anyone writes a book they write it with the purpose of it being clear and giving a message without it having ambigious or conflicting messages. The only reason the Bible is contradicting is because it is not a BOOK but a library of 66 or 72 books written by many people over time depending on what your beliefs are. The Quran has 1 author and not many. It is illogical that a book would tell you about such kindness to everyone in all you actions even animals like ants and then tell you to kill people.
When did I say the Quran is logical? It is contridictory, and that's why there are those who follow the peaceful parts, and those who follow the violent parts. Neither are interpreting it wrong- just prioritizing differently.

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The book is not open to interpretation and no book on this earth is. The reason for writing it actually is to give your message across to people so that they know clearly what your message/teachings/point is. However, people do MISINTERPRET books and laws to suit themselves.
Is it open to interpretation or not? How do you misinterpret something that is so clear and non-contridictary that's it not open to interrpretation? Is this why all Muslims agree with each other about every religious issue?

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Now you can see I have provided explanation as to what kind of religion Islam is and I have also proven beyond doubt why there are people committing acts of terror across the world. There are reasons, however, the reason is NOT Islam.
No- you really haven't. You just said I was wrong, without showing why.

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So in conclusion, everyone here can see the tricks you are trying to pull here. It is not an intelligent debate at all. Therefore, I have made my point as concise as I can and I feel that anything you say has already been addressed in previous posts. So unless there is anything new, I am out of this. If anyone has any genuine questions they can post or PM me anytime.
There ARE Islamic extremists who interpret it just the way I'm saying. THEY are your problem. I'm merely explaining that facts indicate their position can be theologically supported, meaning Islam is not inherently peaceful (even though most Muslims are)

I'd still like you to either put in context, or DISAGREE, with the Mohommad quote above, that it's OK to kill adulterers and apostates. It seems pretty clear to me.
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      09-14-2010, 10:07 AM   #109
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Actually you have got it COMPLETELY WRONG. Tell me the truth how many mosques have you visited? When did you read the Quran and teachings of our prophet? When did you read our books, watch DVDs or anything?
.
Why not just look at the facts. Islam can be used to justify both peace and violence. This would be fine if nobody followed through on the violent parts, but plenty do- enough to cause a serious threat to world peace. The overwhelming majority of non-violent Muslims don't seem to do much about it. Think those violent Jihadists will listen to infidels?

Where is the Muslim protest over those Muslims who threatened violence as a response to the proposed Koran burning, for example?
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      09-14-2010, 10:24 AM   #110
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Is it really so much about religion? IMO (and I am entitled to that opinion) is it about the violent part of human nature to disagree over things like land, laws and power. We all know that as humans we can be territorial and this is how lands were formed in the first place, through wars.

Al-Queda and other terror organisations have demands that have absolutely nothing to do with religion. They are not even trying to spread Islam at all, never mind spread it violently. There only interests lie in issues like Palestine/Israel, Iraq, Afghanistan etc. Whether they are right/wrong about those issues is irrelevant. To make a point about it these people kill innocents and commit terrible acts like bombings. That is the real reason they are doing what they are doing. THEN, to justify it they look desperately in Islam and the Quran and find little pieces that they can manipulate to justify their acts and to gain more support from the Muslim community that CONDEMNS their acts.

Think about it. That is the real reason. Noone blows themselves up for no reason. Only sometimes people like Bin Laden speak about spreading Islam, but overall 9/10 times he has spoken about his outrage at the wars in Iraq, Afghanistan and what is happening in Palestine. They are just hiding behind Islam to justify what they do.
You're just plain wrong. This is all about Islam.

Iraq invaded Kuwait. While they were securing and plundering that area, US and coalition forces went to Saudi Arabia, at Saudi request, for their own defense. Iraqi forces did try to invade Saudi Arabia, but were smacked down very quickly (Battle of Khafji). We pushed the Iraqi army back to Iraq, and quickly got out. We did, however, at Saudi request, leave a small force there to prevent Iraqi operations near the borders of Kuwait and Saudi Arabia.

Bin Laden didn't like infidels in the "holy land", and that's when the terrorism started. We were there at the behest of the Saudis, and would've left when asked (which we DID...around '03). Bin Laden's grudge should've been with his own government. This is when the terrorist attacks really started, and they were religiously motivated.

I actually understand "terrorism" against military forces (USS Cole, Khobar towers). It's really just geurellia warfare, and the US treated it as such by having limited response. However, when it's against innocent civilians (1st WTC bombin in '93, African embassy bombings, 9/11, 7/7, slaughter of Russian school children), a line has been crossed and all bets were off.

9/11 was enabled by Bin Laden, and the Taliban enabled and protected him. It was right to go after him and invade Afghanistan once they wouldn't turn him over (besides- the Taliban was an opressive regime to it's own people anyway- but that is NOT why we invaded). Terrorists BROUGHT the US to Afghanistan, so that's no excuse.

Iraq...well, that was just stupid, and huge numbers of Americans vocally protested that war. If WMD's would've been found, it may've been justified. However, once we screwed everything up there, we were responsible for maintaing stability. Ironically, the real reason we had to stay is because if we left, the Sunni and Shia would use the power vaccum as an excuse to slaughter each other. I understand terrorist attacks against the military in Iraq. It disgusts me...but I understand. I even understand when civilians die in the cross fire, which is tragic, but a part of war and something that is going to happen when civilians live in a war zone. The suicide attacks, and torture of Sunni & Shia on each other is what really disgusted me, over nothing more than some ridiculous dispute 1400 years ago. No American wants to have tens of thousands of troops there any more (Bush thought we'd be out in months), but we must, do to religous fighting based on Islam. We underestimated the Sunni and Shia capability for brutality agains each other.

Same goes for Palestine. I could understand Palestinians attacking Isreali military...but blowing up a market? A city bus?

Last edited by carve; 09-14-2010 at 10:36 AM.
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