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      09-08-2010, 10:03 AM   #1
O-cha
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Ferrari to face hearing, finally.

Ferrari to face hearing, finally. I believe we were promised this would occur a long time ago but w/e.

I Think they should be HEAVILY penalized, this year has been great, instead of 2 or 3 teams fighting for top positions we have had 6 drivers of 3 teams fighting for top positions. It has been great to watch, and that fighting has even cost some teams greatly. For Ferrari to just circumvent that and go there own way it's not fair to the teams who have already lost so much by playing fair and giving the fans a race.

At a minimum I think their points from that race should be stripped if not given further sanctions and penalties.



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Ferrari will appear before the FIA World Motor Sport Council (WMSC) in Paris on Wednesday afternoon in a disciplinary hearing relating to their controversial one-two result at July’s German Grand Prix.

Felipe Massa, who had been leading the Hockenheim race, moved aside to allow team mate Fernando Alonso past on Lap 49 shortly after race engineer Rob Smedley had told him "Fernando is faster than you. Can you confirm you understood that message?"

Seconds later, after Alonso had taken the lead, Smedley was back on the radio to the Brazilian, saying, “Good lad. Just stick with him now. Sorry.” Cries of team orders swiftly reverberated around the paddock and the incident was investigated by the Hockenheim stewards.

They decided the Italian team had contravened Article 39.1 of the sporting regulations, which states that "team orders which interfere with a race result are prohibited", and Article 151 (c) of the International Sporting Code, which outlaws "any fraudulent conduct or any act prejudicial to the interests of any competition or to the interests of motor sport generally".

The stewards immediately imposed a fine of US$100,000 - the maximum fine they are empowered to impose on a competitor - and additionally forwarded their decision to the WMSC for its consideration.

In the post-race aftermath, Ferrari maintained their innocence, with Massa stating it was his decision to allow Alonso through. “In my opinion this was not a case of team orders: my engineer kept me constantly informed on what was going on behind me, especially when I was struggling a bit on the hard tyres: so I decided to do the best thing for the team, and a one-two finish is the best possible result, isn’t it?”

Team boss Stefano Domenicali will be in Paris on Wednesday alongside the obligatory lawyers, while both drivers could make themselves available via video/telephone links. It is the FIA’s first major F1 hearing to be held under the Presidency of former Ferrari team principal Jean Todt, who took over the position from Max Mosley last October. However, the hearing will be chaired not by Todt but by FIA Deputy President for Sport, Graham Stoker.

Should the WMSC decide Ferrari’s actions warrant further sanction, the team face a variety of possible penalties, ranging from a further fine, to having points deducted, disqualification from the German Grand Prix or even the championship.

News on the outcome of the hearing is expected early Wednesday evening.
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      09-08-2010, 12:04 PM   #2
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No further action. This is BS.
They always get away with these kind of things.
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      09-08-2010, 12:08 PM   #3
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Cool so 100k buys you free team orders, 100k is to f1 teams what 1$ is to any of us....
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      09-08-2010, 12:10 PM   #4
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It's like a trial judge passing down a judgment to his own son. Of course they're going to get off scott free...

To be honest, the only people who actually care are the fans and the only reason a rule was made was because of the audience outcry after some of the more deliberate team orders. The teams and officials could really give two shits about it as they believe it's a team sport and that is helpful to a team trying to win.
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      09-08-2010, 12:15 PM   #5
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Given there's a flaw on the regulation and penalty. Not too surprised that Ferrari can get away from this. The regulation only said "No Team orders are permitted" or something vague like this. From what they have said in German GP, they still have room to deny any team orders.

Even tho everyone knows Ferrari is un-ethical to "order" Massa to move over. But you cannot prohibit teams to make decisions for a team sport.
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      09-08-2010, 02:39 PM   #6
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Meanwhile Lotus releases a "track day car" that looks suspiciously close to its F1 car...

Sure, everyone knows what was going on, but if you can make it work within the rules, more power to you. It seems for the team orders rule this is as simple as suggesting your teammate is faster than you - I'm surprised more of this doesn't happen considering how easy it would be to pre designate "code" words or something...

Put me in the camp that less regulation is better for F1...not this overbearing monstrosity of an organization that has 1984-esque insight into everything
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      09-08-2010, 05:24 PM   #7
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Here's my take. First of all, it's practically impossible for any Ferrari driver to win, and same goes for Ferrari as a constructor. Unless that happens, then that decision would become a factor. Second of all, with all the negative press and ridicule, not to mention dragging the bosses to a hearing, I really doubt they'd do it again, extra penalty or not. But do they deserve to get further penalized? Absolutely, and I hope they do.

They agreed to race with the current rules, whether they like them or not. Just like all of us have to follow rules at work, when we drive, how we behave (social rules), etc. They were the equivalent of a rich bully: 'Hey, I can do whatever the hell I want, and if I get caught, 'daddy' bails me out'. It's definitely NOT the right message at any level. If you agree to race under certain conditions, YOU FOLLOW THE DAMN RULES . And what pisses me off more than anything is insulting everybody's intelligence by arguing they made no orders; at least have the freaking balls to admit the obvious. Okay, rant off .

Hey, please post results of the hearing .

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      09-09-2010, 08:29 AM   #8
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The only problem with the post above mine is that penalties should not vary depending on standing.

Take the drive through issue with Hamilton and Alonso. Alonso was pissed that Hamilton was still ahead after the penalty. Does this mean that his penalty should have been more severe? Absolutely not. The penalty fit the infraction. He just had a large enough lead time for it to not matter that much.
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      09-09-2010, 09:34 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BTM View Post
Meanwhile Lotus releases a "track day car" that looks suspiciously close to its F1 car...

Sure, everyone knows what was going on, but if you can make it work within the rules, more power to you. It seems for the team orders rule this is as simple as suggesting your teammate is faster than you - I'm surprised more of this doesn't happen considering how easy it would be to pre designate "code" words or something...

Put me in the camp that less regulation is better for F1...not this overbearing monstrosity of an organization that has 1984-esque insight into everything
Agreed. I really don't know why teams spend sooooo much money and time on everything and don't have the brains to figure out a code word for this type of situation? Something like "keep an eye on your fuel" or pretty much anything would work aside from the "WINK WINK WINK WINK WINK ALONSO IS FASTER ALONSO IS FASTER, CAN YOU CONFIRM YOU UNDERSTAND WINK WINK WINK WINK WINK ELBOW ELBOW." Do they think we're THAT stupid?
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      09-09-2010, 10:22 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfJericho View Post
Agreed. I really don't know why teams spend sooooo much money and time on everything and don't have the brains to figure out a code word for this type of situation? Something like "keep an eye on your fuel" or pretty much anything would work aside from the "WINK WINK WINK WINK WINK ALONSO IS FASTER ALONSO IS FASTER, CAN YOU CONFIRM YOU UNDERSTAND WINK WINK WINK WINK WINK ELBOW ELBOW." Do they think we're THAT stupid?
LOL glad I'm not the only one...I'm always wondering if there is any code in the radio that they broadcast...it could literally be something as simple as

"Tire pressures normal" = tire pressures normal

but repeated twice (ie "tire pressures normal, tire pressures normal") with your teammate behind you means to let him past

brb sending resume to all F1 teams
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      09-09-2010, 10:25 AM   #11
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I say that every team should hire a baseball coach as a team principle and then have them stand on pitwall. Let's the drivers look at them while they fly by
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      09-09-2010, 12:44 PM   #12
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http://planetf1.com/news/3213/636695...-WMSC-decision

Quote:
The FIA have published the full decision regarding Ferrari's team order hearing, revealing that both Williams and Sauber wrote letters of support for Ferrari.

According to the FIA release, Ferrari argued in Wednesday's World Motor Sport Council the difference between team orders and team strategy, insisting that it was Felipe Massa's decision to move aside for Fernando Alonso, handing his team-mate the German GP victory.

Mr Nigel Tozzi, QC for Ferrari, added that team boss Stefano Domenicali believes Ferrari had "not sort to be smart and to secure an advantage, and did not think that what they had done was wrong."

Ferrari, though, it appears were not alone in believing that they were not in the wrong as the Scuderia received letters of support from team bosses, Sir Frank Williams and Peter Sauber.

However, the FIA did actually rule in Wednesday's hearing that Ferrari did use team orders but opted not to punish the team based on either scenarios of rival teams experiencing similar situations in the past.
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      09-09-2010, 02:25 PM   #13
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I don't think saying it needs to be evaluated means it needs to be gone. They could be either considering removing or beefing it up.
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      09-11-2010, 12:06 AM   #14
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I Think they should be HEAVILY penalized
Team orders have been around forever... Was this your first F1 race
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      09-11-2010, 12:51 AM   #15
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Team orders have been around forever.
Adultery has also been around forever; does that make it acceptable? So what's your point: Just follow the rules you want? Or just the ones that haven't been 'around forever'? That 'cheating' mentality is what gets a lot of folks in trouble, be it marriage, business, taxes, etc. And yes, those folks are compulsive liers that think they can get away with it. But the worst kind are the ones who expect employees/subordinates/associates/etc. to cover for them, or like politicians like to call it, being 'loyal'. If everybody had that mentality, we'd be in the toilet now. Seems trivial, but it's not: nobody likes rules, but imagine if nobody followed any? It's a freaking rule is in place, you need to follow it. If you don't like it, get it changed.... if you can. That's the same way society works. Okay, rant off. Hope you got my point .

Last edited by elp_jc; 09-11-2010 at 01:18 AM.
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      09-11-2010, 07:56 AM   #16
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apparently the governing body didn't think it was as serious as your post below.

btw, no where did I say it was ok. my point, being it didn't set in, was that F1 is a TEAM sport, PERIOD. And the TEAMS have been using team orders since day one.



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Adultery has also been around forever; does that make it acceptable? So what's your point: Just follow the rules you want? Or just the ones that haven't been 'around forever'? That 'cheating' mentality is what gets a lot of folks in trouble, be it marriage, business, taxes, etc. And yes, those folks are compulsive liers that think they can get away with it. But the worst kind are the ones who expect employees/subordinates/associates/etc. to cover for them, or like politicians like to call it, being 'loyal'. If everybody had that mentality, we'd be in the toilet now. Seems trivial, but it's not: nobody likes rules, but imagine if nobody followed any? It's a freaking rule is in place, you need to follow it. If you don't like it, get it changed.... if you can. That's the same way society works. Okay, rant off. Hope you got my point .
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      09-11-2010, 10:15 AM   #17
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Quote:
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Team orders have been around forever... Was this your first F1 race
No but it looks like it was your first of the season or something, considering how many team battles have occurred so far and how many teams have LOST points because of battling their teammates.

Everyone else was playing by the rules, and ferrari blatantly violated them.
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      09-11-2010, 10:18 AM   #18
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I for one am glad that Ferrari didn't receive any further penalties.

It seems really silly to me that in a sport where the rules state that the 2 cars that the constructors field have to have 95% identical paint jobs. And there is a lso a championship for the constructors, that is separate from the drivers championship. So why do they impose a rule that doesn't allow the teams to work as one cohesive unit, when they have many other rules in place that FORCES the team to act as a unit? Sound very contradictory to me.

Oh and also, to see what might have been the outcome of the German GP for Ferrari, if they hadn't asked Massa to move over, just see the Bahrain GP and Vettel's attempted pass on Webber.
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      09-11-2010, 10:22 AM   #19
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I for one am glad that Ferrari didn't receive any further penalties.

It seems really silly to me that in a sport where the rules state that the 2 cars that the constructors field have to have 95% identical paint jobs. And there is a lso a championship for the constructors, that is separate from the drivers championship. So why do they impose a rule that doesn't allow the teams to work as one cohesive unit, when they have many other rules in place that FORCES the team to act as a unit? Sound very contradictory to me.

Oh and also, to see what might have been the outcome of the German GP for Ferrari, if they hadn't asked Massa to move over, just see the Bahrain GP and Vettel's attempted pass on Webber.
No there's no rules stopping them from working for the team, the team order is to keep the drivers championship separate from the constructors. Being let past your teamate for a 1-2 instead of a 2-1 doesn't do anything for the team, just the driver.
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      09-11-2010, 10:32 AM   #20
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No but it looks like it was your first of the season or something, considering how many team battles have occurred so far and how many teams have LOST points because of battling their teammates.

Everyone else was playing by the rules, and ferrari blatantly violated them.
We can agree to disagree.

My first season. That's funny. Btw team battles that cause a wreck is not the same as team orders.
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      09-11-2010, 10:47 AM   #21
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Quote:
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We can agree to disagree.

My first season. That's funny. Btw team battles that cause a wreck is not the same as team orders.
Reading comprehension fail , that's exactly the point, they were not using team orders, which is why they were fighting, which is why they wrecked. There are a lot of other incidents of contact between team members while battling, battles and pressure that has caused loss of time.

It's not a disagreement when someone states a fact and another person is retarded.
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      09-11-2010, 03:01 PM   #22
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Here's Jenson Button's thoughts about team orders. And yes, he's a F1 DRIVER . Spoiler: if team orders are reinstated, he'll be quitting. Enjoy:

http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/391131...-motor_sports/
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