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      08-24-2010, 05:24 PM   #133
1cleanm3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vase330 View Post
BMW fan here, but eh ah, hmmm, Mustang wins hands down. You can have two for the price of one M3. in my books this is like Z06 vs Enzo which one do you think I would be willing to pay for? The American ofcourse! Viva cheap thrills! This is not rocket science, I would have afforded an M3, instead I bought a 335i and Toyota RAV4 V6 Sport 3.5, for about the same price. Threw in some mods and tune on the 335i, and it leaves my buddy's M3 with ugly skid marks all over; every single time. So he keeps saying I have no chance on the track (Don't really know about that either - power and torque difference between my 335i and his M3 might more than make up for suspension.), and I counter we live in the real world and he got no chance on real roads. I am not a rich guy, so my $$$ do count to me, and so... there you have it.
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      08-24-2010, 05:27 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by lux View Post
Well not quite. They may have not gotten direct aid but the US gave billions of dollars in loan guarantees. Without the US backing up those loans, credit and liquidity would have dried quickly for FORD, shutting them down.

If FORD goes belly up, guess who pays for the loans???

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/gov...beat-the-debt/
Great article..

However, as the article stated and some of the comments that were posted. This was just good business practice and if they didn't do it they should have been hung by their dingleberies by the board members. This article made me feel even better about Ford. They knew they had to change before the crap hit the fan and they did what they had to do to survive and be profitable again.

Hats off to you Ford..

Dave
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      08-24-2010, 05:57 PM   #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Georgeair View Post
But, that doesn't change the fact that 97.538% of the people who see your car just see another BMW. As will the 302 or 5.0 owners. But the enthusiasts will always notice, whether it's one of these, the new E550 I just saw at lunch or the 77 LeMans I saw yesterday. We notice, everyone else couldn't care less.
Obviously that's your view, but from my perspective people (and not just the enthusiasts) understand/notice there is something different from the M3 from the regular 3's. And that's my point. To say that people blindly see the M3, or hear the M3 go by and think that's a garden variety 3 is far fetched. As I said, I get people - all walks of life - make compliments about the car and its not just cause its a BMW because, yes, BMW is like the German 'Honda' and everyone and their mother seems to own/lease one around me.

BTW - I'm not a blind M3 lover who thinks this is the greatest car in the world. I live in a area where the rich guys come out of the woods with their Lambos, Ferraris, P-cars on the weekends. And I've have stated in the past that my dream car right now is the Audi R8. But I will disagree when people say that the M3 doesn't stick out from the 328s/335s of the world.
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      08-24-2010, 05:59 PM   #136
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Ok so M3 is slightly better then Mustang GT on track in 6-speed version. If you change that to the Double clutch tranny in M3 vs Mustang 6-speed. The M3 will have it beat hands down in acceleration #'s despite the higher hp and torque of the Mustang. I also believe DCT will be faster on track.

As far as price goes it is crazy to even think that the Mustang build quality and refinement is any where near that of the M3. Also M3 resale value is much higher then the Mustangs and its prestige factor is greater. The M3 also comes with 4 year 50K service plan that is built into its price where as Mustang you pay as you go. All of these factors make M3 much better then the Mustang in the same sort of way a Ferrari F430 is better then the Vette Z06. Yes you can buy 2 or 3 Z06's for the price of one F430. However, even if you only just consider the prestige factor or the wow factor and nothing else. The F430 has all 3 of the Z06's you can buy beat by itself. I see way more Z06's on the road then I have ever seen Ferrari F430's. So if you parked one and parked 3 Z06's next to it and gave me the keys to either drive all 3 of those Z06's or F430 even just for a day. I would snatch that F430 key in a heart beat and take off. If I had an option of 2 Mustang GT's and 3 Z06's over M3 and F430. I would still take just one M3 an a F430 over a garage full of stangs and vettes.


As for the M3 vs 335i coupe comparison that is totally different. The 335i offers the same luxury and build quality that the M3 offers. It like comparing the Mustang GT vs Mustang GT500.

Know with all that said I am very happy that the American muscle cars are improving at a fast rate. Maybe one day the Z06's and Mustangs can actually compete with the German and Italian in those areas of refinement and build quality as well as resale value and prestige factor. Until then Mustang is a poor mans M3 and Z06 is a poor mans F430.
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      08-24-2010, 08:12 PM   #137
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Although I thoroughly enjoy all of the various "M3 vs" threads, the more I read and respond, the more I realize it is really all just a big pissing contest. My car is faster by 0.2 sec to 60 than yours, etc.

Bottom line, IMO, is as follows:

1. The search for a "faster" car will never end and there is almost always a faster and cheaper option.

2. More power and speed is really just to give bragging rights for 80% of the population because they NEVER actually use the power/speed on public streets (legally) and don't track their cars.

3. IMO, the M3 and Mustang will be RARELY cross shopped other than by some track enthusiasts or those whose budget is stretched by the M3. If you can comfortably afford the M3 and like the brand, the Mustang won't even be on your radar. Call it badge snobbery, fanboyism, whatever... bottom line is that true enthusiasts (like many here) are the vast MINORITY of M3 purchasers. Most people who buy M3s buy it, in part, for the brand and they are not going to park a Mustang in their driveway next to their neighbors Carrera on one side and their other neighbors C63 on the other side. I'm not saying all of those here have the same concern but MOST M3 owners do... and they don't frequent this forum.

4. I love a lot of things about the Mustang... the power, styling (exterior) and sound... way better stock exhaust than the M3 based on sound alone. For me though, the Mustang doesn't interest me and it isn't because of badge snobbery. I personally appreciate the details associated with German cars. I have a colleague that has a Corvette that would embarrass my M3 in almost every performance measure but I still would not buy the Corvette. Not because it isn't a great car but because it isn't my cup of tea (and also because a Honda Accord's interior is WAY better than the Vette).

5. There will always be faster cars than our M3s. It sometimes feels like many here get offended or it lessens their self esteem when that happens... see my comment #2... this is all really just a big pissing contest. We shouldn't feel threatened when another car is as good, or better, performance wise than an M3 even if it costs less. We chose the M3 for specific reasons and regardless of how great the Mustang is, it isn't the right car for many here for various reasons.
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      08-24-2010, 08:28 PM   #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kayani_1 View Post
Ok so M3 is slightly better then Mustang GT on track in 6-speed version. If you change that to the Double clutch tranny in M3 vs Mustang 6-speed. The M3 will have it beat hands down in acceleration #'s despite the higher hp and torque of the Mustang. I also believe DCT will be faster on track.

As far as price goes it is crazy to even think that the Mustang build quality and refinement is any where near that of the M3. Also M3 resale value is much higher then the Mustangs and its prestige factor is greater. The M3 also comes with 4 year 50K service plan that is built into its price where as Mustang you pay as you go. All of these factors make M3 much better then the Mustang in the same sort of way a Ferrari F430 is better then the Vette Z06. Yes you can buy 2 or 3 Z06's for the price of one F430. However, even if you only just consider the prestige factor or the wow factor and nothing else. The F430 has all 3 of the Z06's you can buy beat by itself. I see way more Z06's on the road then I have ever seen Ferrari F430's. So if you parked one and parked 3 Z06's next to it and gave me the keys to either drive all 3 of those Z06's or F430 even just for a day. I would snatch that F430 key in a heart beat and take off. If I had an option of 2 Mustang GT's and 3 Z06's over M3 and F430. I would still take just one M3 an a F430 over a garage full of stangs and vettes.


As for the M3 vs 335i coupe comparison that is totally different. The 335i offers the same luxury and build quality that the M3 offers. It like comparing the Mustang GT vs Mustang GT500.

Know with all that said I am very happy that the American muscle cars are
improving at a fast rate. Maybe one day the Z06's and Mustangs can actually compete with the German and Italian in those areas of refinement and build quality as well as resale value and prestige factor. Until then Mustang is a poor mans M3 and Z06 is a poor mans F430.
thats all very true but this test wasn't about the Money or quality, it was about 2 different yet so similar cars. This is a win-win for both BMW and FORD.

The Boss should be a great contender for the M3 and its more similar specs.
302V8 440hp and 380fl.lb of torque
7500rpm (180mph LS model)

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      08-24-2010, 09:25 PM   #139
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A lesson for those that continue to say Fords will continue to fall apart (I don't aruge their quality was sub-par a decade ago):

Most Dependable Manufacturers Performance by make is based on problems per 100 vehicles for all models; a lower score is better. The industry average is 155. Click on a manufacturer name to read the latest Cars.com make report.
NameplateScore

Porsche110 Lincoln114 Buick115 Lexus115 Mercury121 Toyota128 Honda132 Ford141 Mercedes-Benz142 Acura143 Hyundai148 Cadillac150 Infiniti150 Subaru155 Industry Average155 Saab158 Saturn164 BMW165 GMC165 Chrysler166 Kia167 Volvo167 Hummer169 Jaguar175 Chevrolet176 Nissan180 Audi182 Dodge190 Pontiac192 Mazda195 Scion201 Mitsubishi202 Mini203 Jeep222 Volkswagen225 Suzuki253 Land Rover255
As far as the interior goes, I sure as hell hope the M3s interior is better than the mustangs - they better be putting the extra $25K towards something.

This is what stumps me. . .

Base Mustang GT - $35K or so for a decent package.
Track Mustang (Boss) $Low 40s (speculation)

'Base' E92M3 - $60K
Track M3 (GTS) $170K - Are you kidding me? What a joke.

Every M3 loyalist should be thanking Ford for upping the ante with this new Mustang - BMW has no choice but to come out with a serious successor to to the E92M.
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      08-24-2010, 10:48 PM   #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trahsub View Post
A lesson for those that continue to say Fords will continue to fall apart (I don't aruge their quality was sub-par a decade ago):

Most Dependable Manufacturers Performance by make is based on problems per 100 vehicles for all models; a lower score is better. The industry average is 155. Click on a manufacturer name to read the latest Cars.com make report.
NameplateScore

Porsche110 Lincoln114 Buick115 Lexus115 Mercury121 Toyota128 Honda132 Ford141 Mercedes-Benz142 Acura143 Hyundai148 Cadillac150 Infiniti150 Subaru155 Industry Average155 Saab158 Saturn164 BMW165 GMC165 Chrysler166 Kia167 Volvo167 Hummer169 Jaguar175 Chevrolet176 Nissan180 Audi182 Dodge190 Pontiac192 Mazda195 Scion201 Mitsubishi202 Mini203 Jeep222 Volkswagen225 Suzuki253 Land Rover255
As far as the interior goes, I sure as hell hope the M3s interior is better than the mustangs - they better be putting the extra $25K towards something.

This is what stumps me. . .

Base Mustang GT - $35K or so for a decent package.
Track Mustang (Boss) $Low 40s (speculation)

'Base' E92M3 - $60K
Track M3 (GTS) $170K - Are you kidding me? What a joke.

Every M3 loyalist should be thanking Ford for upping the ante with this new Mustang - BMW has no choice but to come out with a serious successor to to the E92M.
Exactly, competition only improves the breed. However, the next M3 is going to be a TT I6, while the Mustang will always have a V8...IMHO I'm going with the V8.

Dave
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      08-24-2010, 10:49 PM   #141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gthal View Post
Although I thoroughly enjoy all of the various "M3 vs" threads, the more I read and respond, the more I realize it is really all just a big pissing contest. My car is faster by 0.2 sec to 60 than yours, etc.

Bottom line, IMO, is as follows:

1. The search for a "faster" car will never end and there is almost always a faster and cheaper option.

2. More power and speed is really just to give bragging rights for 80% of the population because they NEVER actually use the power/speed on public streets (legally) and don't track their cars.

3. IMO, the M3 and Mustang will be RARELY cross shopped other than by some track enthusiasts or those whose budget is stretched by the M3. If you can comfortably afford the M3 and like the brand, the Mustang won't even be on your radar. Call it badge snobbery, fanboyism, whatever... bottom line is that true enthusiasts (like many here) are the vast MINORITY of M3 purchasers. Most people who buy M3s buy it, in part, for the brand and they are not going to park a Mustang in their driveway next to their neighbors Carrera on one side and their other neighbors C63 on the other side. I'm not saying all of those here have the same concern but MOST M3 owners do... and they don't frequent this forum.

4. I love a lot of things about the Mustang... the power, styling (exterior) and sound... way better stock exhaust than the M3 based on sound alone. For me though, the Mustang doesn't interest me and it isn't because of badge snobbery. I personally appreciate the details associated with German cars. I have a colleague that has a Corvette that would embarrass my M3 in almost every performance measure but I still would not buy the Corvette. Not because it isn't a great car but because it isn't my cup of tea (and also because a Honda Accord's interior is WAY better than the Vette).

5. There will always be faster cars than our M3s. It sometimes feels like many here get offended or it lessens their self esteem when that happens... see my comment #2... this is all really just a big pissing contest. We shouldn't feel threatened when another car is as good, or better, performance wise than an M3 even if it costs less. We chose the M3 for specific reasons and regardless of how great the Mustang is, it isn't the right car for many here for various reasons.


Well said, and from someone who likes Mustangs but owns an M3.

Dave
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      08-25-2010, 03:54 AM   #142
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For me something was strange about the results. The things mentioned in the article and on the video that are wrong with the Mustang (shocks too soft, body roll, nose dive under braking, shocks can't handle speeds above 60 mph, etc.) are all things that should have killed the car on the track, especially for the regular Joe as they unsettle the chassis and driver confidence to push hard. In this case, the regular Joe pushed harder with the unsettled chassis. I find this odd. Not saying it isn't true, just odd given the characterization of the suspension, not to mention no talk of brake fade given the heavy nose diving of the car on the track.
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      08-25-2010, 04:03 AM   #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoE46 View Post
For me something was strange about the results. The things mentioned in the article and on the video that are wrong with the Mustang (shocks too soft, body roll, nose dive under braking, shocks can't handle speeds above 60 mph, etc.) are all things that should have killed the car on the track, especially for the regular Joe as they unsettle the chassis and driver confidence to push hard. In this case, the regular Joe pushed harder with the unsettled chassis. I find this odd. Not saying it isn't true, just odd given the characterization of the suspension, not to mention no talk of brake fade given the heavy nose diving of the car on the track.
The mustang does suffer from nose dive, and the Pro guy did say he felt the mustang had better brakes. i think its just a reflection on how the BMW has better quality overall, thats were the 22k difference goes to use.

the mustang has good quality but, we have to remember Both cars have different quality standards.
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      08-25-2010, 05:22 AM   #144
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Obviously that's your view, but from my perspective people (and not just the enthusiasts) understand/notice there is something different from the M3 from the regular 3's. And that's my point. To say that people blindly see the M3, or hear the M3 go by and think that's a garden variety 3 is far fetched. As I said, I get people - all walks of life - make compliments about the car and its not just cause its a BMW because, yes, BMW is like the German 'Honda' and everyone and their mother seems to own/lease one around me.

BTW - I'm not a blind M3 lover who thinks this is the greatest car in the world. I live in a area where the rich guys come out of the woods with their Lambos, Ferraris, P-cars on the weekends. And I've have stated in the past that my dream car right now is the Audi R8. But I will disagree when people say that the M3 doesn't stick out from the 328s/335s of the world.
Just wanted to comment on your entire "exclusivity" thing. On your trips that you mentioned, how many GT500's did you see? I only think it's fair that if you're considering the M3 exclusive because it looks a bit different then the same can be said for the GT500 right? The best 3 series VS the best mustang.

Far as exclusivity goes the comparison would be GT500 VS M3, and GT VS 335.

I see maybe 3-5 GT500's where i live weekly yet i see a lot more M3's . . .

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      08-25-2010, 07:18 AM   #145
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Yes, that discrepancy has been touched upon in the Boss discussion in this forum. I think a big part of the problem here is that - for the general population - its harder to sell a luxury-branded track car than a non-luxury-branded track car. After all, the GTS is far from a true luxury car, with basically no amenities, really. In that sense it does not align itself with BMW's brand message. That makes it a tough sell, so you can't expect to move very many of them, and thus you have to price it very high to make a profit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by trahsub View Post
This is what stumps me. . .

Base Mustang GT - $35K or so for a decent package.
Track Mustang (Boss) $Low 40s (speculation)

'Base' E92M3 - $60K
Track M3 (GTS) $170K - Are you kidding me? What a joke.

Every M3 loyalist should be thanking Ford for upping the ante with this new Mustang - BMW has no choice but to come out with a serious successor to to the E92M.
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      08-25-2010, 11:59 AM   #146
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Originally Posted by Anbu View Post
Far as exclusivity goes the comparison would be GT500 VS M3, and GT VS 335.

I see maybe 3-5 GT500's where i live weekly yet i see a lot more M3's . . .

I agree with your comparison, I don't see may GT500s on the road and when I do see one, I know what it is (or at least it looks different from the standard GT or 5.0).
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      08-25-2010, 02:26 PM   #147
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I just have to laugh a little when someone on a BMW M3 forum accuses others of driving a car for image or status. Anyone who buys a BMW cares what other people think... PERIOD. I do, you do, we all do. I always like to say "the way it drives" or whatever, and that's all true, but the fact is that I like to get in and out of my M3. I have a Honda Accord for my commute, and while I don't mind driving it, I'd definitely rather be seen in the M3. Anyone with a nice car who denies this is full of sh*t.
the truth. when people say they don't care and that makes them enthusiast, i call BS instantly.
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      08-25-2010, 02:26 PM   #148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
Yes, that discrepancy has been touched upon in the Boss discussion in this forum. I think a big part of the problem here is that - for the general population - its harder to sell a luxury-branded track car than a non-luxury-branded track car. After all, the GTS is far from a true luxury car, with basically no amenities, really. In that sense it does not align itself with BMW's brand message. That makes it a tough sell, so you can't expect to move very many of them, and thus you have to price it very high to make a profit.
Exactly..like usual you have the correct insight. The BMW 3 series is considered a entry level luxury vehicle while the Mustang is not. That is the two different approaches these manafacturers are using.

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      08-25-2010, 02:28 PM   #149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMRLVR View Post
Well guys I don't have time to keep on replying to this thread because I am on vacation (and because the misus is giving me hell for constantly being on my IPhone).

I am going to end off on this point;

For me a car is like a woman. One woman may be able to knock your socks off in the bedroom, have a body that don't stop and looks to kill but, can you see yourself marrying her or even spending lots of time with her? The Mustang for me is the hot broad you like to f*** and forget about but my M3 is the woman I love and want to spend time with. She is every bit as hot as the Mustang but my love for her goes beyond the bedroom. She for me is the total package!
1 is never enough though.
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      08-25-2010, 02:42 PM   #150
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ive had an E92...ive test driven the stang...i liked the looks, power in the stang...but honestly the stang felt like driving a cement truck in comparison to the M...high driving position, body roll, and crappy steering. could be easily fixed...but i felt no connection to the car. JMO
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      08-25-2010, 03:43 PM   #151
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I have been going back and forth about purchasing an M3 for nearly 2 years now. To be completely honest, BMW screwed the M3 owners by allowing the tuned 135/335i to be faster. I remember when the e46 M3 came out. It not only set the benchmark for track times for its competition, but also in acceleration. This wasn't the case for the E9x M3's. Part of the allure of the M3 was knowing you were quicker than your competition. First the 135/335's became a threat and now Ford Mustangs. I think I'll pass on the M3 until it becomes something special again (even if it looks better!)

Also, for those of you who haven't seen this yet...

http://www.autoblog.com/2010/08/23/f...w-5-0-liter-v

Quote:
Things just got a lot more interesting for owners of the 2011 Ford Mustang. This weekend at the Woodward Dream Cruise, Ford Racing released its new supercharger package for the new 5.0-liter V8, turning the already potent pony car into a serious drag-strip contender.

The supercharger system is available in three packages, each utilizing a 2.3-liter Whipple twin-screw supercharger, air-to-liquid intercooler and 47 lb/hr fuel injectors. The base package provides 525 horsepower and 470 pound-feet torque and comes with a 12-month/12,000-mile warranty when installed by a Ford or Lincoln dealer, while the second kit offers 624 hp and 536 lb-ft torque... but no warranty. Finally, those that want to build their own custom system can opt for the tuner kit, which comes with only the core components but needs to be independently calibrated to work with the engine's computer. Hit the jump to see full details on both packages, and if you're the owners of a 2011 Mustang, you've got some decisions to make. Top tip, Panayiotis!
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      08-25-2010, 04:42 PM   #152
serge
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Originally Posted by vase330 View Post
This is not rocket science, I would have afforded an M3, instead I bought a 335i and Toyota RAV4 V6 Sport 3.5, for about the same price. Threw in some mods and tune on the 335i, and it leaves my buddy's M3 with ugly skid marks all over; every single time. So he keeps saying I have no chance on the track (Don't really know about that either - power and torque difference between my 335i and his M3 might more than make up for suspension.), and I counter we live in the real world and he got no chance on real roads. I am not a rich guy, so my $$$ do count to me, and so... there you have it.
We all know that chipped 335s are among the fastest cars in the world. I've seen all the youtube videos: "335 beats 650hp Evo", "335 keeping up with Veyron", "335 running circles against Z06", etc etc. Therefore, M3s stand no chance against all that amazing display of torque. It can even make up for suspension at the track, just like you said.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amg63 View Post
To be completely honest, BMW screwed the M3 owners by allowing the tuned 135/335i to be faster.
Ask any M3 owners if they feel like they were screwed by BMW for that reason, which by the way is totally inaccurate.
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      08-25-2010, 04:57 PM   #153
BMRLVR
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Originally Posted by graider View Post
1 is never enough though.
But if you could only have one what one would it be? If I can have many than that changes everything.

On a serious note, my fiance loves mustangs and dreams of having one..... i may be able to have a GT 5.0 and an M3!!!
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      08-25-2010, 10:40 PM   #154
Cl0ud7
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Kudos to the Mustang!

But seriously, what's up with these car magazines testing the M3 w/6 speed and continental tires?
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