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      08-24-2010, 10:29 AM   #111
Driver72
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Let's be fair here guys. Many of you are being very respectful and forthright in giving the Mustang it's due props, but some of you are blaming the tires on the M3.
Come on, it's not like ContiSport3's are all season crap.

Further:

The M3 got around the track .09 seconds faster with the pro driver (about 1 foot ahead), and Motor Trend declares that a win, and the M3 the winner because of it.

However, the Mustang stopped from 60-0 2 feet shorter than the M3, but they declare that test a tie.
Further, if you watch the drag racing section of the video, the Mustang actually wins by a bumper or a bit more in several of those drags they declared a tie. It didn't look like the M3 ever one by on any of them. But they keep going until the Mustang beats the M3 by several feet.

So again, on the track when the BMW wins by a foot and a mere .09 seconds they declare it a win, but when the Mustang time and time again beat the M3 in the 1/4 mile by 1 foot or .09 seconds they declared it a tie and made the Mustang win by several feet before they declared it a true win.

WTF Motor Trend?
I love the M3 and think it's one of the greatest cars made, but do you think you could have at least some journalistic integrity and be fair.
If you declare 1 foot and .09 seconds a win for the BMW (and even giving it the overall "win" based on just that sole test) maybe you should try being fair and giving the Mustang the "win" when it wins by 1 foot or .09 seconds (or especially when it wins by twice that margin and you still don't give the Mustang the win in that category).


Further, why did they order nearly every option on the Mustang (short of the glass roof)?
Though minor the addition of Nav, cold weather package and some of the other stuff add 10-20 lbs to the weight of the Mustang.
So in the interest of getting the price up to be more like the M3's they make it a bit heavier and therefore perform a bit worse, but they then order the BEST handling M3, disregarding the fact the Competition Package adds $2500 to it's price?

Order the BEST handling M3 instead of the cheaper regular M3 but then order up the options on the Mustang to build up its price, disregarding the fact those options added probablt 15-20 lbs to the Mustangs weight. That 15+ lbs extra the Nav, cold weather, and a few others added probably cost the Mustang the .09 seconds or more it lost on the race track by.

The fairest comparison would of been the REGULAR M3 versus the Mustang
The M3 Competition Package comparo should of been saved for the Boss 302. The Boss 302 would still cost $18-20k less, but I think we all know based on the M3 ZCP vs Mustang GT test how the M3 ZCP would fair against the Boss 302 which is essentially it's handling package for the Mustang GT.

So don't complain about the tires, they ordered up the Best Handling M3 against the standard Mustang but optioned the thing up to nearly as heavy as it gets (except the 30 lbs glass roof). So the M3 had ALL the favoritism and advantages in this test.

Props to the Mustang GT
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      08-24-2010, 11:01 AM   #112
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Ford is going to build more than 50 Boss 302 LSs. The 50 number was for the Boss 302R that is being raced in the Conti GrandAm series.

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      08-24-2010, 11:11 AM   #113
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thats not even a fair match up. they have to match up the mustang with a camaro or some car of that sort.
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      08-24-2010, 11:31 AM   #114
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I just have to laugh a little when someone on a BMW M3 forum accuses others of driving a car for image or status. Anyone who buys a BMW cares what other people think... PERIOD. I do, you do, we all do. I always like to say "the way it drives" or whatever, and that's all true, but the fact is that I like to get in and out of my M3. I have a Honda Accord for my commute, and while I don't mind driving it, I'd definitely rather be seen in the M3. Anyone with a nice car who denies this is full of sh*t.
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      08-24-2010, 11:32 AM   #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foosh View Post
No so perfectly stated for a number of reasons. It wasn't just about 1/4 mile times, it was a full-spectrum test.

In addition, BMW's quality and reliability have been quite uneven during various periods over the last 25 years. The two biggest lemons I ever owned were both BMWs (1998 528 and 2002 745). The 5-series lived half-time at the dealership for endless electrical gremlins, and the 7-series suffered similar maladies, and tossed in an engine failure at 14K miles for good measure. Both were buy-backs, and I left BMW for many years until I came back for the M3. That experience has been good.


Yeah I don't think that Ford should get all this credit as if this is a major break through! They should've had this type of performance from their mustang years ago. Look how long it has taken them to move from that archaic V6?!? The Mustang really could be a legitimate 3-series competitor. The car for goodness sake doesn't even have head airbags yet!!! If they fixed the cheapness in the interior (maybe add some real wood trim and re badge as Lincoln), add an IRS, full compliment of airbags, they'd be on their way. A dual clutch wouldn't hurt either.
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      08-24-2010, 12:04 PM   #116
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To all of the folks that cut up my previous post, I do like the new Mustang and am impressed with it's performance and it's big improvements in quality compared to Mustangs of yesteryear. I also realize the new mustang performs pretty well identically to my M3.

Ford in General is making North America proud with the products it is turning out now. I hope they continue to keep this up and put North America back on the map as far as Car Manufacturers are concerned.

I have the budget for an M3 so I bought an M3. If I only had the budget for a Mustang I would have given it a fair shot too. You see the reason most (but not all) Mustang owners drive Mustangs is because they are shopping within their means and there is no shame in that. This current generation allows nearly everyone the opportunity to enjoy amazing performance at a great price!
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      08-24-2010, 12:25 PM   #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by warzilla View Post
but unless you really look, you're not going to tell the difference on the 5.0 to the v6 version unless you look hard. No matter what folks say about the M3 looking like a 3 series, people who are looking do know the M3 is special, and different from the regular 3.
But, that doesn't change the fact that 97.538% of the people who see your car just see another BMW. As will the 302 or 5.0 owners. But the enthusiasts will always notice, whether it's one of these, the new E550 I just saw at lunch or the 77 LeMans I saw yesterday. We notice, everyone else couldn't care less.
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      08-24-2010, 01:01 PM   #118
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Yep that's where I figure he was getting confused too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave07997S View Post
Ford is going to build more than 50 Boss 302 LSs. The 50 number was for the Boss 302R that is being raced in the Conti GrandAm series.

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      08-24-2010, 01:04 PM   #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdgamble View Post
I just have to laugh a little when someone on a BMW M3 forum accuses others of driving a car for image or status. Anyone who buys a BMW cares what other people think... PERIOD. I do, you do, we all do. I always like to say "the way it drives" or whatever, and that's all true, but the fact is that I like to get in and out of my M3. I have a Honda Accord for my commute, and while I don't mind driving it, I'd definitely rather be seen in the M3. Anyone with a nice car who denies this is full of sh*t.
I would tend to agree that there is some of that in all of us, yes. The key is, you give credit where credit is due, even when you feel a car is below your rent level. Some people here seem to have a hard time doing that.
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      08-24-2010, 01:13 PM   #120
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I would tend to agree that there is some of that in all of us, yes. The key is, you give credit where credit is due, even when you feel a car is below your rent level. Some people here seem to have a hard time doing that.
Very true
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      08-24-2010, 01:21 PM   #121
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I tend to agree and here's why.

It might very well be true that, generally speaking, people do not cross-shop luxury branded vehicles with non-luxury branded vehicles. In fact, I would say that's probably a fact. However, performance models present an interesting exception. When it comes to those of us who rank pure performance high on the list of shopping criteria, I would say that cross-shopping between luxury and non-luxury brands is much more common-place. Don't get me wrong, I know that many of us enthusiasts still like to be pampered too. But when push comes to shove I think the majority of us will give up some luxury for better performance.

It's not uncommon for the Z06 to come up in discussion around here, for example. Clearly that's not a luxury car, but it does deliver very compelling performance for the money. Sure, it might carry a very luxury-sized price tag. But it is not a luxury car by any stretch.

The new Mustang GT presents any interesting case. M3 performance for the price of a 328i. On a 40k budget, I'd wager that less than a quarter of M3 owners would genuinely find the 328i more appealing than the Mustang GT. Perhaps more than that would end up with the BMW for other reasons (simple brand preference or "snobbery" among them), but I'll bet that at least half of us, given a 40k budget, will actually go test drive the GT and probably a lot of us would take it home. Granted those numbers are SWAGs, but I doubt I am far off here.

Going forward, people looking for a high performance coupe with a 400hp+ V8 will have to give the Mustang a second look. And lets be honest, after 2013, the M3 won't even satisfy that criteria anymore.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

I am far from a fan boy of any one manufactor. I am a performance car enthusiast first.

I have had the Mazda RX7, Corvette Z06, Audi S4, BMW 335i, and now the M3. Of all those cars, the closest I have come to a fan boy is the Z06. That car is on a completely different level then the rest of the cars listed. But since I have a little one and don't have the extra income to have a dedicated toy car, the 2 seater sports car market isn't an option right now.

I test drove the 2011 Rousch GT (more show then go) and wasn 't too impressed, but having driven the regular brembo equipted GT, I am not only cross shopping, I am very close to trading from the M3 to the Mustang.

Here is why.... Like I stated about, I am about performance first, luxury second. My biggest complaint about the M3 is the manual gearbox, with the issues that I have had with grinding and BMW saying "can't reproduce problem", I am fed up. I would love to have a DCT equipped car, but that prices me out (I got a killer deal on the current M3, think $7500 truck money + $1K below invoice)

No, the Mustang can't quite be driven as fast because of lesser shocks/struts (easy fix www.griggsracing.com) , but all other performance equals the M3, plus better gas mileage and cheaper repairs after warranty.

I will give complete props to the M3 for being what it is, I just HATE the gearbox, it kills the fun and is embarrarssing when shifting at redline from 1st to 2nd results in grinding a lot of the time (see muiltiple threads on this), and for $25K less minus about $5K in suspension work to the Mustang, I will have a car the will hang with SCCA prep cars and still be civil enough for the street.

Yes, I know, i know stock for stock blah, blah. But that is the only area the Mustang needs a little work to fully (performance wise) to surpass the M3.

Oh and to boot the Mustang interior isn't that bad, most certainly not $20K worse then the M3. As far as status... Who gives a rats ass about what others think of your ride. Who spends all their time in it? The automobile is about self expression, not to impress others, for those that need a status to feel important, I feel sorry for you.

Just my .02 from a performance car guy.
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      08-24-2010, 01:21 PM   #122
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Quote:
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But, that doesn't change the fact that 97.538% of the people who see your car just see another BMW. As will the 302 or 5.0 owners. But the enthusiasts will always notice, whether it's one of these, the new E550 I just saw at lunch or the 77 LeMans I saw yesterday. We notice, everyone else couldn't care less.
You are right.... I feel my car is largely invisible to most people and I like it that way. I have to say though many enthusiasts in cars of all kinds have taken notice of my car (I got thumbs up from A Mustang driver yesterday). I know some of it is due to my modifications but many people think my car is stock except for the exhaust!
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      08-24-2010, 01:42 PM   #123
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What I'm pointing out is this...Go look at the value of most Ford's w/100K on them, and the value might scare you.
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I hear ya, but...

Cost to drive an M3 100,000 miles has to cost more than driving the Ford 100,000 miles. BMW isn't necessarily known for its reliability and cheap repairs.

The Gas mileage in town is also better on the Ford.
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      08-24-2010, 01:56 PM   #124
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Well guys I don't have time to keep on replying to this thread because I am on vacation (and because the misus is giving me hell for constantly being on my IPhone).

I am going to end off on this point;

For me a car is like a woman. One woman may be able to knock your socks off in the bedroom, have a body that don't stop and looks to kill but, can you see yourself marrying her or even spending lots of time with her? The Mustang for me is the hot broad you like to f*** and forget about but my M3 is the woman I love and want to spend time with. She is every bit as hot as the Mustang but my love for her goes beyond the bedroom. She for me is the total package!
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      08-24-2010, 02:23 PM   #125
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Well guys I don't have time to keep on replying to this thread because I am on vacation (and because the misus is giving me hell for constantly being on my IPhone).

I am going to end off on this point;

For me a car is like a woman. One woman may be able to knock your socks off in the bedroom, have a body that don't stop and looks to kill but, can you see yourself marrying her or even spending lots of time with her? The Mustang for me is the hot broad you like to f*** and forget about but my M3 is the woman I love and want to spend time with. She is every bit as hot as the Mustang but my love for her goes beyond the bedroom. She for me is the total package!
Well said

I still love my M3 but I do want a Boss 302LS to play with at the track
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      08-24-2010, 02:37 PM   #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
But when push comes to shove I think the majority of us will give up some luxury for better performance.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
...but I'll bet that at least half of us, given a 40k budget, will actually go test drive the GT and probably a lot of us would take it home.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
Going forward, people looking for a high performance coupe with a 400hp+ V8 will have to give the Mustang a second look.
I am proud to say that I am a BMW enthusiast.

Unfortunately, I am one of the guys you mentioned on your quotes above.

For me it's performance over luxury.



Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
And lets be honest, after 2013, the M3 won't even satisfy that criteria anymore.
Sad to say, this is something awaiting to happen...
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      08-24-2010, 03:31 PM   #127
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No, the Mustang can't quite be driven as fast because of lesser shocks/struts (easy fix www.griggsracing.com)
You don't want that torque arm setup for the street, its noisy as hell. I would look at the rear coil over setup they have along with some of the front suspension parts they have.

Also, you know Ground Control has a real nice setup for the Stang as well.

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      08-24-2010, 03:34 PM   #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
No idea what you just said, sorry.



Yeah, 5k is very believable. 600 was not. I am still not buying that there will only be 50 LS either.



LOL because I thought for a second that you meant 69 and 70 (like you wrote) and not '69 and '70 (1969 and 1970).



That is what I would guess for base MSRP as well. Actually I would say $40k-$45k.
sorry i was typing fast at night

i was confuse with the 302R and LS, but we can expect at-least 300 LS models(example Cobra R).

5k a year sounds very reasonable and makes sense's.
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      08-24-2010, 03:40 PM   #129
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Guys, you have read my posts since joining this board with my 2011 M3 and I have praised the Mustang as still being a big Mustang fan. I did cross shop the M3 with the Mustang, yet there were several things that stopped me. The interior while definitely better than previous years still wasn't up to the standards I got used to driving around in BMWs and Porsches the last 10 years, its getting close though and shows you are getting old when you start caring about such things...I'm in my mid 40s now. The lack of an IRS, although on a race track that won't matter much but on the real world streets it does matter and the fact they didn't lease (this was actually the major reason for me). I lease through my company to get the full tax advantages and the lease on the Mustangs was more than just buying the car with financing, for which I don't get near the same tax advantages.

Its funny for those calling the Mustang hideous yet there are alot of Mustang owners that feel the same about the M3 or any 3 series for that matter. Thats why its all about personal taste...

The M3 always seemed to me to be the Mustang that finally grew up, yet in 2013 or 2014 Ford will release the new Mustang and it won't be based on the retro stuff we have today and it will finally put the SRA out to pasture where it belongs. Whats sad is the S197 Mustang (current Mustang) was designed from the get go with a killer IRS setup, its just the damm bean counters didn't want to spend the extra $150 per car it would have cost

It was reported that the IRS would have jacked up the price of the Mustang by over $1k per vehicle yet a memo was released to Motor Trend and it turned out the actual increase was a mere $150.

The Ford of today I believe is a different company than what it was back in 2003-04 now that Alan Mulally is in charge of Ford...the motto now is "almost isn't good enough".

I feel this issue of Motor Trend is actually causing a tetonic shift in the automobile world that the lowly Mustang can be mentioned in the same breath of the M3 is actually a game changer.

I can't wait for 2013-14.

Dave
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      08-24-2010, 04:00 PM   #130
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Not bad. As said, Kudos to Ford.


Now BMW, make your pricing so it matches the Ford
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      08-24-2010, 04:48 PM   #131
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Uh, I think you need to recheck your facts. Ford did not ask for, or receive, one penny of taxpayer money. GM and Chrysler were the only manufacturers to receive government aid. Ford remained fiscally solvent throughout the depths of the world-wide financial crisis.
Well not quite. They may have not gotten direct aid but the US gave billions of dollars in loan guarantees. Without the US backing up those loans, credit and liquidity would have dried quickly for FORD, shutting them down.

If FORD goes belly up, guess who pays for the loans???

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/gov...beat-the-debt/
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      08-24-2010, 04:59 PM   #132
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BMW fan here, but eh ah, hmmm, Mustang wins hands down. You can have two for the price of one M3. in my books this is like Z06 vs Enzo which one do you think I would be willing to pay for? The American ofcourse! Viva cheap thrills! This is not rocket science, I would have afforded an M3, instead I bought a 335i and Toyota RAV4 V6 Sport 3.5, for about the same price. Threw in some mods and tune on the 335i, and it leaves my buddy's M3 with ugly skid marks all over; every single time. So he keeps saying I have no chance on the track (Don't really know about that either - power and torque difference between my 335i and his M3 might more than make up for suspension.), and I counter we live in the real world and he got no chance on real roads. I am not a rich guy, so my $$$ do count to me, and so... there you have it.
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