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      07-28-2010, 09:57 PM   #67
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The S5 is shooting a gap between the M3 and M5 which may have looked good on paper, but I don't think it works out in practice. Maybe if you're an M5 guy and want a coupe. Audi doesn't seem to desire to take on the M3 directly, of course magazines will do that for them. They line up the S4 against the 335i, and I'm guessing the RS5 is more aligned with a Merc, not sure. The RS5 sort of its by itself out there in its price range. If I was Audi, and with BMW dropping the Sedan M3 for the F30, I'd bring back the RS4 and gobble up some of that market share before IS-F and C63 get all of the sales.
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      07-28-2010, 10:52 PM   #68
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makes me feel like I have to buy another M3
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      07-28-2010, 11:05 PM   #69
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this quote from another thread.....

"....This impression means absolutely nothing. The only thing useful are the pictures of the car inside and out. I for one believe that this RS5 will beat the M3 in most tests, just because it's being released almost 3 years after the E9x M3.

OOPS!!!
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      07-29-2010, 12:05 AM   #70
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Wow, it really hurts to make such brash predictions, perhaps based on excelusive insider knowledge, and then to fail so badly. It's also really bad not to be able to admit mistakes.
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      07-29-2010, 05:21 AM   #71
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It just goes to show that technology doesn't translate to feel. You can produce faster cars that are not as fun to drive....I had the pleasure of doing the World Class Driving Experience last year and took out a Ferrari f430, Lambo Gallardo, Aston DB9, Porsche GT2 and a McLaren Mercedes SLR. The Ferrari, with less power then the others, was by far the most fun to drive - the noises, feel, and interaction between car and driver were intoxicating. The Lambo felt numb afterwards (thanks audi/vw).

I think the RS5 suffers from the same fate...its overly engineered. Sure, it may run a faster lap time than an e92 M3 off the lot (and who races all OEM cars?) but its all about feel and fun for me....good luck hanging the RS5 ass out in a massive drift on a twisty public road and being confident that you're in control.
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      07-29-2010, 06:31 AM   #72
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Wow, it really hurts to make such brash predictions, perhaps based on excelusive insider knowledge, and then to fail so badly. It's also really bad not to be able to admit mistakes.
Yeah, I fu@ked up big time. Though my prediction (months before it's release) that BMW were working on a competition pack to compete with the RS5 wasn't wrong, nor was my prediction that it would make it very competitive.

I admit that the times achieved so far are not the same as I had been told and I don't have an answer to this. They have always been spot on, like they were with the TT-RS so maybe there is a reason that none of us are aware of. If I hear something you will be the first to know.
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      07-29-2010, 06:39 AM   #73
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The M3 got its engine unofficially tweaked.
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      07-29-2010, 07:52 AM   #74
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There's two things the CTS-V has that I would LOVE to have for my M3:

18 gallon fuel tank and a 100k mile powertrain warranty.
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      07-29-2010, 08:19 AM   #75
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the rs5 is going to look uique on the road.
just my 2 cents.
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      07-29-2010, 08:20 AM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
There's two things the CTS-V has that I would LOVE to have for my M3:

18 gallon fuel tank and a 100k mile powertrain warranty.

+10000000000 on the 18 gallon fuel tank especially.
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      07-29-2010, 08:23 AM   #77
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the rs5 is going to look uique on the road.
just my 2 cents.
No, an R8 looks unique on the road. An RS5 looks just like every other Audi to about 95% of the population.

Plus, just because something looks unique, doesn't mean that's a good thing. A pink Fiat 500 looks unique too, you know.
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      07-29-2010, 08:32 AM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack28 View Post
Very Nice Video... Ya Kudos to Cadillac loll... dropping a high hp engine in a coupe doesn't make it a great sports car. As the host said, The BMW IS the REAL Drivers car. Loved this Video. Very nice...
I respectfully disagree with you (not in your praise for the M3--no--I love that car too and there is no disputing its title as king, at least not to me).

Cadillac did a lot more than just drop a high HP engine..this car was built -as a sedan-from the ground up to beat the M5 and C63 AMG, not only in a straight line, but at the "ring" and in every other way. And it does. It was won every comparison to those cars and the Jag, etc etc... This coupe is the same car with basically different sheet metal to make a coupe..so why now they want to compare to an M3 or RS5 is kind of strange- Maybe an M6??

If you read this article--where they are evaluating JUST the cts-v coupe, you will see that they say it is not only a great sports car, but one of the best in the world.

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...est/index.html



"Cadillac's CTS-V is not just the best American sport sedan in history; it's also one of the best in the world. Period. Better than Jaguar's impressive XFR. Better than BMW's legendary M5. And so close to Mercedes-Benz's benchmark E63 AMG that choosing between the two is really down to personal taste and whether your pockets are deep enough to handle the German car's $25,000 price premium."




"Out on regular roads, the CTS-V Coupe is easily the most athletic Caddy ever. It surges from corner to corner with a muted rumble, and turns in obediently when you pull the steering wheel off-center. There's plenty of bite from the front end, and good mid-corner grip. And with all that torque -- 551 lb.-ft. at 3800 rpm, almost smack in the middle of the supercharged V-8's rev-band -- you can adjust the car's cornering attitude at will. There's oversteer if you want it -- and you have the StabiliTrak switched off -- but the onset is delightfully progressive and easily controllable.



"665-mile, one-day dash from the south of England to deepest Bavaria underscored CTS-V Coupe's credentials as a continent-crushing grand tourer. That supercharged V-8 drinks from such deep reserves of power and torque that it hardly feels like it's breaking a sweat. Setting the shocks in Tour mode overlays the firm ride with just the right amount of compliance, yet keeps the chassis composed and communicative. We cruised as fast as we could across Germany, hitting an indicated 165 mph more than once, and the Caddy tracked like a bullet train, even when hammering through big sweeping turns on the Autobahn at a buck-forty or so. It has the same calm, deliberate demeanor at speed as an AMG Mercedes."


"Edgy, rakish, pumped, the Cadillac CTS-V Coupe is stylistically confident and extroverted, like an American performance car should be, but in a way international audiences will understand and embrace. What's more, it actually delivers on the visual promises, with performance and handling that genuinely allows it to run wheel-to-wheel, no-holds-barred, with the world's best premium performance coupes. We've compared American and foreign cars before, but those stories have been more about a clash of cultures than a match-up of machinery. This time, though, it's different, because the Cadillac CTS-V doesn't need to excuse itself by wrapping up in the Stars and Stripes. By anyone's standards, it's a damned good piece. Period."

I would say there is no dispute it IS a world class sports car--and remember, in this shootout--they "choose"the M3. The V beat it in nearly all performance categories, and it is will beat it on the "ring" as well.

There only real knock against it was the Tranny--and they also called the M3 tranny "clunky"...

Like I said, I am a BMW lover--there is nothing like them. I am currently looking real hard at adding the new 550i to my stable. So I "get" why the M3 gets choosen. But its probably not a great comparison, and to dismiss the V as "not a great car" is hasty--especially if you have never had the opportunity to take one around Monticello (as I have) and see what it is really like. there are several pro drivers that had substantially quicker times around Monticello in the V than in the M3 on the same day, during Caddy's challenge.

Just my two cents...
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      07-29-2010, 10:07 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
No, an R8 looks unique on the road. An RS5 looks just like every other Audi to about 95% of the population.

Plus, just because something looks unique, doesn't mean that's a good thing. A pink Fiat 500 looks unique too, you know.
In a way you are quite right, to Joe Blogs on the street the RS5 looks like most Audi, this is the advantage and disadvantage of corporate imaging, this holds true for BMW, Mercedes and Porsche as all these brands basically throw the same nose on each of their models. The only thing I will say in his defence is that the RS5 as with all A5 models does look a bit more exclusive and special than the 3 series, most of the reason for this is the success of the 3 series, it makes it slightly commonplace to see one.

The only thing is, and this hold true for the M3 as well as the RS5 is that will placed beside a 3 series or in the case of the Audi an A5 even Joe Blogs can tell these aren't your run of the mill versions.
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      07-29-2010, 11:34 AM   #80
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this holds true for BMW, Mercedes and Porsche as all these brands basically throw the same nose on each of their models.
Yes, and in fact, it holds for most any passenger car under the same vehicle brand that uses the same basic form factor (2-box, 3-box, whatever) and size. A big part of what makes cars like the R8 - and most any purpose built sports car - catch so much attention looks is that they don't look much like other cars on the road nor from the same brand.

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The only thing I will say in his defence is that the RS5 as with all A5 models does look a bit more exclusive and special than the 3 series, most of the reason for this is the success of the 3 series, it makes it slightly commonplace to see one.
Sure but, all of this depends on ones location, of course. In the Detroit, MI, area I see relatively few German cars over all. BMW, Audi, Mercedes all appear with the same relative infrequency, roughly speaking.

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The only thing is, and this hold true for the M3 as well as the RS5 is that will placed beside a 3 series or in the case of the Audi an A5 even Joe Blogs can tell these aren't your run of the mill versions.
Yes, I agree that once you put them next to their lesser-capable siblings, the differences become very noticeable.
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      07-29-2010, 11:35 AM   #81
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these type of articles make me feel
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      07-29-2010, 01:18 PM   #82
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      07-29-2010, 01:32 PM   #83
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That is a bad example to quote. It has been discussed extensively. It was really a GM market fest. Nothing more.

Young amateur 21 year old Cooper with little seat time was able to take his M3 sedan around faster than every other car including 3 CTS-V, M5, RS4, Evo X etc., one of which was driven by Bob Lutz.

That caught completely GM off-guard and at the very last moment to save face decided to bring in their professional developer/driver of the CTS-V just to beat Cooper's time. They called him the "secret driver". It does not get anymore apples to oranges than that.

It was one of the most lame and pathetic display of marketing I had ever seen.


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I-especially if you have never had the opportunity to take one around Monticello (as I have) and see what it is really like. there are several pro drivers that had substantially quicker times around Monticello in the V than in the M3 on the same day, during Caddy's challenge.

Just my two cents...
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      07-29-2010, 01:36 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 330CIZHP View Post
That is a bad example to quote. It has been discussed extensively. It was really a GM market fest. Nothing more.

Young amateur 21 year old Cooper with little seat time was able to take his M3 sedan around faster than every other car including 3 CTS-V, M5, RS4, Evo X etc., one of which was driven by Bob Lutz.

That caught completely GM off-guard and at the very last moment to save face decided to bring in their professional developer/driver of the CTS-V just to beat Cooper's time. They called him the "secret driver". It does not get anymore apples to oranges than that.

It was one of the most lame and pathetic display of marketing I had ever seen.

trust me--as someone who has driven both cars extensively, and driven monticello. you, or I or any professional, will get a faster lap time there in the V. and the margin won't be tiny...

and there were several CTS-v that got faster times than cooper--driven by amateurs
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      07-29-2010, 01:55 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by srt8/bmw View Post
Cadillac did a lot more than just drop a high HP engine..this car was built -as a sedan-from the ground up to beat the M5 and C63 AMG, not only in a straight line, but at the "ring" and in every other way. And it does.
The CTS sedan was built to compete with the 5 series and E class Benz, and indeed the CTS-V was compared with the E63 and M5. Thus your expectation that the Coupe was made to go head to head against the M6. Problem is, the M6 sort of fell off everybody's radar and the price disparity is also huge - so they won't get compared.

Instead, pricing puts in square in the M3's bracket. There is also the matter of packaging - while the sedan was indeed 1 size larger than the 3 series inside, the coupe isn't, the packaging is pretty bad. So everyone looking at it immediately assumes it's a 3 series coupe competitor.

Also be aware that the CTS-V doesn't trounce the M3 on track. The Ring times are very close (M3 ZCP supposedly does 8 min flat) and other track times in the US are also close (with the Caddy being faster on some tracks and slower on others).

So performance wise, the only category where the Caddy trounces the M3 indisputably is acceleration - what else is new? The M3 has won comparisons in the past despite HP deficits...


Quote:
It was won every comparison to those cars and the Jag, etc etc... This coupe is the same car with basically different sheet metal to make a coupe..so why now they want to compare to an M3 or RS5 is kind of strange- Maybe an M6??
Because the interior is cramped - the M3 has a better rear seat as well as ingress.

Quote:
I would say there is no dispute it IS a world class sports car--and remember, in this shootout--they "choose"the M3. The V beat it in nearly all performance categories, and it is will beat it on the "ring" as well.
Since they didn't publish Ring times, let's wait and see (and see my comments above).

Quote:
There only real knock against it was the Tranny--and they also called the M3 tranny "clunky"...
Clunky but lightning fast is better than super slow. But I've driven the DCT and it's not clunky by any stretch of the imagination.

Quote:
there are several pro drivers that had substantially quicker times around Monticello in the V than in the M3 on the same day, during Caddy's challenge.
I've only seen times from the pros in the Caddy (not in the M3), and they beat some kid in an M3. All the other CTS-V times by regular Joe's were worse than the kid in the M3.

Kind of makes you wonder what the M3 times would have been with an unbiased pro at the wheel.
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      07-29-2010, 02:00 PM   #86
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trust me--as someone who has driven both cars extensively, and driven monticello. you, or I or any professional, will get a faster lap time there in the V. and the margin won't be tiny...
Lap times between the 2 cars on other tracks are very close, I wouldn't be so sure.

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and there were several CTS-v that got faster times than cooper--driven by amateurs
Link?
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      07-29-2010, 02:10 PM   #87
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The CTS sedan was built to compete with the 5 series and E class Benz, and indeed the CTS-V was compared with the E63 and M5. Thus your expectation that the Coupe was made to go head to head against the M6. Problem is, the M6 sort of fell off everybody's radar and the price disparity is also huge - so they won't get compared.

Instead, pricing puts in square in the M3's bracket. There is also the matter of packaging - while the sedan was indeed 1 size larger than the 3 series inside, the coupe isn't, the packaging is pretty bad. So everyone looking at it immediately assumes it's a 3 series coupe competitor.

Also be aware that the CTS-V doesn't trounce the M3 on track. The Ring times are very close (M3 ZCP supposedly does 8 min flat) and other track times in the US are also close (with the Caddy being faster on some tracks and slower on others).

So performance wise, the only category where the Caddy trounces the M3 indisputably is acceleration - what else is new? The M3 has won comparisons in the past despite HP deficits...




Because the interior is cramped - the M3 has a better rear seat as well as ingress.



Since they didn't publish Ring times, let's wait and see (and see my comments above).



Clunky but lightning fast is better than super slow. But I've driven the DCT and it's not clunky by any stretch of the imagination.



I've only seen times from the pros in the Caddy (not in the M3), and they beat some kid in an M3. All the other CTS-V times by regular Joe's were worse than the kid in the M3.

Kind of makes you wonder what the M3 times would have been with an unbiased pro at the wheel.

I guess I will say it another way. If I were shopping for a world class sports coupe, I would find it rather hard to pick something over the M3. Just my bias. The Caddy, although faster..just doesn't fit into my personal view of this category..its just too big and heavy. It would be like trying to compare it to my 335.

when looking at a world class sports sedan, which I basically do continually, the V sedan was the easy choice for me. Fastest in every way--track or line, nicest looking, best value. As far as I am concerned, it still sits atop that lofty place...likely until the next M5 is launched.

I don't have a link to that..I am going by memory--as is the person I am responding to who has no link. I remember that the guy in the M3 was the fastest on day one--of all cars. On day two his times were bested by several ams and at least one pro.
I have yet to see a published, authoritiative track/lap comparison where an M3 beat a V. Until I do--don't think its out there.

there is little factual dispute which car is faster...please don't try to go there. If your talking coupe's you don't have to convince me which is the better overall car....I would take the M.

as for the tranny--so you saying they are wrong about the M3 tranny, because you drove it, but they are right about the V tranny?? Nice... OK..I will tell you that they are partially right-- it is not slow by any means. But it is "indecisive" in the higher gears..
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      07-29-2010, 02:37 PM   #88
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I guess I will say it another way. If I were shopping for a world class sports coupe, I would find it rather hard to pick something over the M3. Just my bias. The Caddy, although faster..just doesn't fit into my personal view of this category..its just too big and heavy. It would be like trying to compare it to my 335.

when looking at a world class sports sedan, which I basically do continually, the V sedan was the easy choice for me. Fastest in every way--track or line, nicest looking, best value. As far as I am concerned, it still sits atop that lofty place...likely until the next M5 is launched.

I don't have a link to that..I am going by memory--as is the person I am responding to who has no link. I remember that the guy in the M3 was the fastest on day one--of all cars. On day two his times were bested by several ams and at least one pro.
I have yet to see a published, authoritiative track/lap comparison where an M3 beat a V. Until I do--don't think its out there.

there is little factual dispute which car is faster...please don't try to go there. If your talking coupe's you don't have to convince me which is the better overall car....I would take the M.

as for the tranny--so you saying they are wrong about the M3 tranny, because you drove it, but they are right about the V tranny?? Nice... OK..I will tell you that they are partially right-- it is not slow by any means. But it is "indecisive" in the higher gears..
im confused. coupe you would pick m3, and sedan you would pick ctsv? seems like coupe or sedan, they are the same cars
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