BMW M3 Forum (E90 E92)

BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   M3Post - BMW M3 Forum > BIMMERPOST Universal Forums > Professional Motorsport Racing Discussion (ALMS, DTM, Formula 1, Grand-AM, Le Mans, IRL, WRC, etc..)
 
Racewerkz Engineering
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      07-26-2010, 09:46 AM   #45
inTgr8r
Major General
 
inTgr8r's Avatar
 
Drives: 07 M Coupe
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Toronto

Posts: 8,014
iTrader: (7)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeyBananaz18 View Post
I strongly feel this was done as a preventative measure. There is no question that the RB6 chassis is probably the best on the grid. and Ferrari was not going to give the RBR a chance to catch up.


....
You're basing it on the supposition that it was done as a "preventative measure"
Nobody has supported that with anything but conjecture..
__________________
Alpinweiss '07 M Coupe •DKF Section1•RPi GT exhaust•Fabspeed Headers•VRS Hyper-Narrow rear wing•Autosolutions SSK•APR splitter•Tekarbon headlights•StrongStrut STB•KW Clubsport•H&R ARBs c/w Turner Adj Links•Poly FCAB/RTAB•Volk Racing G2•Direzza ZII•Stoptech BBK•Vibra-Tech mtr mounts•
inTgr8r is offline   Canada
0
Reply With Quote
      07-26-2010, 09:50 AM   #46
inTgr8r
Major General
 
inTgr8r's Avatar
 
Drives: 07 M Coupe
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Toronto

Posts: 8,014
iTrader: (7)

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrackRat View Post
If you remove all the emotion, team names, etc. the bottom line is an F1 team races to win the constructors championship first and then the driver's championship if they can. As such it's the teams responsibility to do everything within their power to achieve these goals.
So, how did that change by flipping the order?
__________________
Alpinweiss '07 M Coupe •DKF Section1•RPi GT exhaust•Fabspeed Headers•VRS Hyper-Narrow rear wing•Autosolutions SSK•APR splitter•Tekarbon headlights•StrongStrut STB•KW Clubsport•H&R ARBs c/w Turner Adj Links•Poly FCAB/RTAB•Volk Racing G2•Direzza ZII•Stoptech BBK•Vibra-Tech mtr mounts•
inTgr8r is offline   Canada
0
Reply With Quote
      07-26-2010, 09:58 AM   #47
SonnyJack
First Lieutenant
 
Drives: '09 E92 M3 6MT Jerez Black
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Laurel, MD

Posts: 357
iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrackRat View Post
If you remove all the emotion, team names, etc. the bottom line is an F1 team races to win the constructors championship first and then the driver's championship if they can. As such it's the teams responsibility to do everything within their power to achieve these goals.

Did the FIA fine Red Bull when they took the front wing off of Webbers car and installed it on Vettel's car? Technically what RB did altered the race results but no fine.

The problem isn't the racing or team decisions. The fans and some in the media are unrealistic about the competition aspect of F1 and think only of racing as a "sport". F1 is a business folks and a very expensive one. The teams and drivers understand the objective and drive accordingly. This will not change as a result of fan or media whining.
C'mon now. Comparing the RB wing issue (something that did not occur during a race) with something that occured during the race is ridiculous. Now if you're going to call Webber in during the race and take his wing off and give it to Vettel DURING THE RACE, then maybe we have a problem.

Emotion is the exact reason we have an issue. Alonso's ego left him feeling that he deserved to win more than his teammate. A move that did not in any way provide any further benefit to the team. Alonso is in 5th place in the drivers standings. Not 1st, 2nd nor 3rd, but 5th. He isn't in position to win the drivers title this year but he still wants to be emotionally babied.

Ferrari didn't learn a thing from the RB soap opera and now has the exact same team split. And after all this drama they most likely aren't going to win the drivers championship, nor the constructors title.
SonnyJack is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      07-26-2010, 09:58 AM   #48
escobar929
Brigadier General
 
escobar929's Avatar
 
Drives: M235i
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Hollywood, FL

Posts: 4,277
iTrader: (13)

Garage List
2015 M235i  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by inTgr8r View Post
So, how did that change by flipping the order?
lol exactly, so far I've heard nothing from the FA supporters that has made any sense, the baseball analogy does not apply. Baseball rules are set up for this, which is why it doesnt count against the batter to do a sacrifice hit to get a run. So if this was the same in F1, then Massa should have gotten the points for being 1st, not 2nd.

and then they call us fan boys the irony is too much on this one
escobar929 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      07-26-2010, 10:11 AM   #49
SonnyJack
First Lieutenant
 
Drives: '09 E92 M3 6MT Jerez Black
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Laurel, MD

Posts: 357
iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeyBananaz18 View Post
I'd really like someone to explain how the baseball analogy isn't in the same line as what happened yesterday.
Baseball is about 9 guys all trying to win the game and all trying to do whatever it takes to win. The pitcher isn't in competition with the catcher, nor are the outfielders in competition with the infielders. Everyone is on the same page and plays their role. Pitchers pitch, catchers catch, fielders field. Yes, they all bat, but they're all trying to score runs for the team to win. A sac fly does just that and in a close game it can make all the difference.

F1 drivers are individuals and they all feel they are the best and teammates are in direct competition with each other. Completely opposite to a team sport where all players need each other to be successful.
SonnyJack is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      07-26-2010, 10:21 AM   #50
JoeyBananaz18
Brigadier General
 
JoeyBananaz18's Avatar
 
Drives: metrocard
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Whitestone, NY

Posts: 3,760
iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SonnyJack View Post
Baseball is about 9 guys all trying to win the game and all trying to do whatever it takes to win. The pitcher isn't in competition with the catcher, nor are the outfielders in competition with the infielders. Everyone is on the same page and plays their role. Pitchers pitch, catchers catch, fielders field. Yes, they all bat, but they're all trying to score runs for the team to win. A sac fly does just that and in a close game it can make all the difference.

F1 drivers are individuals and they all feel they are the best and teammates are in direct competition with each other. Completely opposite to a team sport where all players need each other to be successful.

........and massa and alonso are trying to score point for their TEAM to lose? you make a good point in that each member has their own role and together they work for the team. however, the reason i like this analogy is that its the manager that signals to the batter (perhaps not for a sac fly) but definitely for a bunt, in which you could say the same thing about team orders. Again, i feel most of this controversy is stemmed for the fact that it was Alonso who made the move. if it was one of the darling Mclaren boys it definitely would not have turned into what it has.
__________________
7/18/09- I pick up my baby- 2009 E92 335i Xdrive, Space Gray over Coral Red. Premium Pkg, Cold Weather Pkg, M-Sport Pkg, 193Ms, Gloss Black grills, Custom Gloss Black Mirrors, Performance shift and E-brake boot, M3 spoiler, Euro fog switch, gloss black interior tim, Coco-Mats (red/black), H&R coilovers, 19'' Alufelgen SF-71s......
JoeyBananaz18 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      07-26-2010, 10:25 AM   #51
escobar929
Brigadier General
 
escobar929's Avatar
 
Drives: M235i
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Hollywood, FL

Posts: 4,277
iTrader: (13)

Garage List
2015 M235i  [0.00]
lol who's in denial?

sacrifies hits are LEGAL in baseball, team orders are NOT. Whether we agree on whether they should be or not is not the point. Its against the rules.

This was not done to benifit the team, this was done to benifit FA. Massa is a good smart driver, he would have never put himself or the teams position to finish 1-2, so he could win

If FA was faster, he should have passed him. Period

Quote:
Nor do they justify Massa's second billing. Were he to have prevailed in Sunday's race, he would have arrived in Hungary just 24 points - the equivalent of less than a single race win - behind his team-mate. Ferrari didn't just manipulate the result of a solitary race. In effect, they announced that only one of their drivers is contending in the World Championship.
escobar929 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      07-26-2010, 10:30 AM   #52
UltimateBMW
Brigadier General
 
UltimateBMW's Avatar
 
Drives: MP4
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: South

Posts: 3,287
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrackRat View Post
The point is it's all emotion over nothing. If you don't understand the objective of the F1 racing process then it's all moot. You'll never get it until you step outside the emotional box and accept the whole point of F1 racing.

BTW, the baseball examples are of team sports and precisely what F1 is but those in denial refuse to accept.
None of these posts strike me as being emotional. No one is saying, "I hate Alonso", "Alonso sucks", etc. The few comments about Alonso being a cry-baby are not opinion. He sent a transmission to his team complaining.

You can't directly compare a competition between 2 teams, and a competition between 24 teams (ok, 23 teams). That is why the analogy fails. The only possible way I could see baseball and F1 compared is that if the pitcher (analogous to the driver) throws an entire game by tossing a meatball to an opposing batter causing a grandslam or something. But even still, it is a stretch.


On a side note, the $100,000 fine was the max fine possible for them to hand out before a precedent is set by the WMSC. The next few days should prove interesting as to what their verdict is.
__________________
UltimateBMW is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      07-26-2010, 10:32 AM   #53
SonnyJack
First Lieutenant
 
Drives: '09 E92 M3 6MT Jerez Black
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Laurel, MD

Posts: 357
iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrackRat View Post
The point is it's all emotion over nothing. If you don't understand the objective of the F1 racing process then it's all moot. You'll never get it until you step outside the emotional box and accept the whole point of F1 racing.

BTW, the baseball examples are of team sports and precisely what F1 is but those in denial refuse to accept.


Mr Rat it would seem that you are in denial.

The F1 team's primary objective is, as you correctly stated, to win the constructors title first, and the driver's title second. Alonso ain't gonna win the drivers title unless you ban McLaren and RBR from the remaining races, and the best you can do from a constructor's standpoint is a 1-2 finish. Massa-Alonso and Alonso-Massa are both 1-2 finishes so nothing was gained from breaking the rules by issuing orders to allow the pass.

If you seriously think that orders were not given, YOU are in serious denial.

Also, not trying to flame you but do you even know how to play baseball? To even compare the two makes me think you do not.
SonnyJack is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      07-26-2010, 10:43 AM   #54
SonnyJack
First Lieutenant
 
Drives: '09 E92 M3 6MT Jerez Black
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Laurel, MD

Posts: 357
iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeyBananaz18 View Post
........and massa and alonso are trying to score point for their TEAM to lose? you make a good point in that each member has their own role and together they work for the team. however, the reason i like this analogy is that its the manager that signals to the batter (perhaps not for a sac fly) but definitely for a bunt, in which you could say the same thing about team orders. Again, i feel most of this controversy is stemmed for the fact that it was Alonso who made the move. if it was one of the darling Mclaren boys it definitely would not have turned into what it has.
None of what you stated is illegal in baseball so what's the point of the analogy? The baseball team is trying to win the team championship ring. The F1 team is trying to win the team championship ring.

You are right that this is viral because it's Alonso. He has whined so much about double standards that he has made himself a target.

The difference is that at no point is the baseball team trying to earn an individual player the MVP at the expense of one of his teammates. No matter how good he may be.

Last edited by SonnyJack; 07-26-2010 at 10:45 AM. Reason: Add'l info
SonnyJack is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      07-26-2010, 11:26 AM   #55
SonnyJack
First Lieutenant
 
Drives: '09 E92 M3 6MT Jerez Black
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Laurel, MD

Posts: 357
iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrackRat View Post
I'm not in denial I'm a realist.

I said Ferrari did not violate any rules, and they didn't. They told Massa that Alonso was faster. They did not instruct Massa to allow Alonso to pass and thus they did not influence the outcome of the race. Massa is perfectly free to allow Alonso to pass - and gain more points - as he did. You can bet if McLaren told Hamilton that Button was faster, Hamilton would crash Button out before he allowed him to pass...

Ferrara has won more F1 championships than the others because they generally race smart and this was another case of the same.

It is what it is, so you can deal with it or be upset. Neither will change reality.
OK Mr. Rat, we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. Plenty of people argue that no orders were given and plenty argue that orders were definitely given. I guess we'll see what comes of this. I think we can both agree that 100K isn't much of a fine if the FIA thinks orders were indeed given.

Happy motoring!
SonnyJack is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      07-26-2010, 11:29 AM   #56
escobar929
Brigadier General
 
escobar929's Avatar
 
Drives: M235i
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Hollywood, FL

Posts: 4,277
iTrader: (13)

Garage List
2015 M235i  [0.00]
LOL, you must a comedian by profession if you are really calling yourself a realist only to then say there were no team order given. Maybe they didnt specifically say it but a 5 year old would know the hidden meaning to what was said

there is nothing upsetting about this issue other than the ridiculous posts in this thread
escobar929 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      07-26-2010, 11:38 AM   #57
inTgr8r
Major General
 
inTgr8r's Avatar
 
Drives: 07 M Coupe
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Toronto

Posts: 8,014
iTrader: (7)

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrackRat View Post
Show me where a team order was given.

Please don't make it personal when people don't agree with your perspective because it does not change anything.
If not, why didn't Ferrari contest the ruling?
__________________
Alpinweiss '07 M Coupe •DKF Section1•RPi GT exhaust•Fabspeed Headers•VRS Hyper-Narrow rear wing•Autosolutions SSK•APR splitter•Tekarbon headlights•StrongStrut STB•KW Clubsport•H&R ARBs c/w Turner Adj Links•Poly FCAB/RTAB•Volk Racing G2•Direzza ZII•Stoptech BBK•Vibra-Tech mtr mounts•
inTgr8r is offline   Canada
0
Reply With Quote
      07-26-2010, 11:51 AM   #58
Spec Volcanic
Private First Class
 
Spec Volcanic's Avatar
 
Drives: 2011 BMW 1M
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Calgary Alberta

Posts: 164
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SonnyJack View Post
The only one who benefited was Alonso. The "team" would have scored maximum points regardless of whether it was alonso-massa, or massa-alonso. That's the part that blows. No way will Alonso win the drivers championship this year. Too erratic. He's in 5th place because he is the 5th best driver. He needs to quit his fucking bitching and drive more consistently.
Maybe....
Maybe they Crash in to each other
Maybe the with the small gap between FM and SV, if FA was in the between them SV get by FA
Maybe FM blocks FA and sV goes but both...
There is no way to know for sure...
But barring a failure if FA goes by FM, he drives a way FM and SV and 1st is all but locked up, as if SV gets by FM later also there will be a big gap by the he does...

If the them was smart the would have said sometime like fuel is critical you can only use 17,000 in 6 and 7 for like VP was told... Alonso drives by, and once SV starts to Close, Tell FM it is ok to use Full Rev now we must keep 2nd.
Spec Volcanic is offline   Canada
0
Reply With Quote
      07-26-2010, 12:11 PM   #59
UltimateBMW
Brigadier General
 
UltimateBMW's Avatar
 
Drives: MP4
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: South

Posts: 3,287
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrackRat View Post
You didn't show me any team orders, did ya?

$100K isn't even lunch money for an F1 team. Ferrari understands that some fanbois and media don't understand F1 racing, so they accept that reality and move on. The $100K fine is a memo from the FIA to use better radio messages in the future so they don't have to deal with fanbois and the media.
I'll mention it again since most poeple seemed to have skipped it.

The $100,000 fine is the max amount a steward can issue without a precedent set by the WMSC.
__________________
UltimateBMW is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      07-26-2010, 12:21 PM   #60
JoeyBananaz18
Brigadier General
 
JoeyBananaz18's Avatar
 
Drives: metrocard
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Whitestone, NY

Posts: 3,760
iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SonnyJack View Post
None of what you stated is illegal in baseball so what's the point of the analogy?
thats exactly my point. why should it be illegal in F1?
__________________
7/18/09- I pick up my baby- 2009 E92 335i Xdrive, Space Gray over Coral Red. Premium Pkg, Cold Weather Pkg, M-Sport Pkg, 193Ms, Gloss Black grills, Custom Gloss Black Mirrors, Performance shift and E-brake boot, M3 spoiler, Euro fog switch, gloss black interior tim, Coco-Mats (red/black), H&R coilovers, 19'' Alufelgen SF-71s......
JoeyBananaz18 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      07-26-2010, 12:31 PM   #61
KingOfJericho
Major General
 
KingOfJericho's Avatar
 
Drives: Yes
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: CT

Posts: 5,103
iTrader: (1)

Garage List
2010 135i Coupe  [2.63]
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeyBananaz18 View Post
thats exactly my point. why should it be illegal in F1?
But that IS the point. It's not allowed and they broke that rule.
__________________
The views and opinions expressed in this post are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of Bimmerpost.

2010 S4 Current | 2010 BMW 135i Retired | 2006 Lotus Exige Retired
KingOfJericho is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      07-26-2010, 12:35 PM   #62
escobar929
Brigadier General
 
escobar929's Avatar
 
Drives: M235i
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Hollywood, FL

Posts: 4,277
iTrader: (13)

Garage List
2015 M235i  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrackRat View Post
Show me where a team order was given.

Please don't make it personal when people don't agree with your perspective because it does not change anything.
Sorry if my comment was taken as an insult, it was not meant to be

I really thought it was funny
escobar929 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      07-26-2010, 01:03 PM   #63
graider
Colonel
 
graider's Avatar
 
Drives: py/kiwi e46 m3
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: toronto

Posts: 2,408
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by inTgr8r View Post
If not, why didn't Ferrari contest the ruling?
it is a waste of time and 100k to ferrari is like one buck to us. if i'm ferrari, i would focus my resources on the next race instead.

I don't see anything wrong doing by ferrari here. FIA shouldn't give them the fine. btw, they should remove this rule permanently or just limit 1 car per team instead.
graider is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      07-26-2010, 01:12 PM   #64
KingOfJericho
Major General
 
KingOfJericho's Avatar
 
Drives: Yes
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: CT

Posts: 5,103
iTrader: (1)

Garage List
2010 135i Coupe  [2.63]
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrackRat View Post
Show me where they "broke the rule" please.
Did you watch the race?
__________________
The views and opinions expressed in this post are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of Bimmerpost.

2010 S4 Current | 2010 BMW 135i Retired | 2006 Lotus Exige Retired
KingOfJericho is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      07-26-2010, 01:18 PM   #65
E90SLAM
Supreme Allied Commander
 
E90SLAM's Avatar
 
Drives: A BBS WHORE
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: .

Posts: 61,106
iTrader: (6)

Garage List
2006 330i  [4.67]
Neh...I don't think its "cheating"....Ferrari was going to get 1-2 win anywayz....its just pure politics and favoritism....
__________________
E90SLAM is offline   Hong Kong
0
Reply With Quote
      07-26-2010, 01:22 PM   #66
KingOfJericho
Major General
 
KingOfJericho's Avatar
 
Drives: Yes
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: CT

Posts: 5,103
iTrader: (1)

Garage List
2010 135i Coupe  [2.63]
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrackRat View Post
Can you show me where Ferrari cheated or not?
Can you tell me if you watched the race or not? I'm not going to discuss this with someone who has not scene the race in question.

Also, I never said they cheated but they did break a rule. Cheating would be adding nitrous to the car or reinstalling the KERS without anyone knowing.
__________________
The views and opinions expressed in this post are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of Bimmerpost.

2010 S4 Current | 2010 BMW 135i Retired | 2006 Lotus Exige Retired
KingOfJericho is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:59 PM.




m3post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST