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      07-25-2010, 11:54 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by TrackRat View Post
Now they need to repeal the rule and get on with racing.
I find that last comment to be quite ironic. Surely you must as well, regardless of recent incidents.

Team orders are not racing. They are a final modification after the racing has already been done in my opinion.
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      07-26-2010, 12:21 AM   #24
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Alonso is a dick.

Had he shown more respect for his teammate, there would be no controversy after today's race.
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      07-26-2010, 06:09 AM   #25
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Uhh... if Massa was holding him up then Alonso would have to overtake him (an unnecessary risk from a team point of view) or else Vettel would catch up to him since the gap between Alonso and Vettel was shrinking.
Sorry but Vettel only "caught" Massa after he basically gave up and resigned himself to a 2nd place finish. The Ferrari's were faster than all other cars and were in no danger of being passed by anyone.
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      07-26-2010, 06:22 AM   #26
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There have been countless F1 drivers who gave up a position to their teammates in the best interest of the team - as it should be. Neither Massa nor Alonso were thrilled about the situation but they are paid professionals who understand they are paid to help the team win a constructor's championship. If they can also win a driver's championship along the way, then that's icing on the cake. The German GP deal was a chance to improve the odds of a driver's championship, so it was the correct call.
So you really think the order to let Alonso pass doesn't come without his bitching on the radio? He expected his teammate to roll over for him and Massa told him to fuck off. Alonso was VERY pleased to be handed an unearned victory because he knew he couldn't beat Massa by racing him.

Maybe he is a better driver than Massa, but he wasn't during the race and he didn't earn the win.
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      07-26-2010, 06:54 AM   #27
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So you wouldn't tell a baseball player to hit a sacrifice fly ball to score a run and win the game?
damn good point!
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      07-26-2010, 07:58 AM   #28
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Denial isn't going to change reality.
What denial?

Tk-421, Trackrat, were you happy with the way the race ended? Or just accepting of it.
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      07-26-2010, 08:22 AM   #29
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I'm sorry but this is not racing...

This is the president of the FIA feels about team orders:


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      07-26-2010, 08:24 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SonnyJack View Post
Sorry but Vettel only "caught" Massa after he basically gave up and resigned himself to a 2nd place finish. The Ferrari's were faster than all other cars and were in no danger of being passed by anyone.
If you're stefano dominicali and you're watching the lap times come up, and you engineers are telling you that the gap between your drivers is closing (with vettel behind them), you realize that if something is not done you risk letting vettel catch up to your drivers. letting the drivers race it out and have alonso pass isnt as easy as it sounds. just passing someone in a formula 1 car is a bit more difficult than the way we pass someone on the highway. and passing can also pose a threat of some kind of crash.
Why hold up a driver that is clearly faster and risk throwing away a 1-2 finish? They new Vettel was back there and they knew that if there was one driver that could overtake them both and go on to win, it was Vettel. I feel sorry that for massa that he was put in that position. i'm a big massa fan and on the 1 year anniversary of his accident, there isn't another driver i wanted to see standing on top of that podium. but the truth is alonso was faster, and you cant let the faster driver be held up and risk loosing the race.

The baseball analogy in this thread is spot on.
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      07-26-2010, 08:51 AM   #31
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Ferrari just failed to go around the "no team order" rule...they gotta find a better way to do this....

should've ask massa to go on fuel save mode instead....
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      07-26-2010, 08:58 AM   #32
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As for the baseball analogy...i'm sure you enjoy watching because of all those sacrifice hits...i'm just exaggerating....

Ferrari has no balls to admit they did wrong....like last time FA cut the chicane...they kept making excuses why they didn't tell FA to give the position back...."oh Charlie Whiting said this....Charlie said that...blah blah blah"....
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      07-26-2010, 09:03 AM   #33
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They could have had him lock the brakes on a corner or get a little squirrelly on an exit but that would look bad for the driver. I would have done exactly what Massa did by making it painfully obvious that it had nothing to do with his driving that Alonso overtook him.
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      07-26-2010, 09:06 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfJericho View Post
They could have had him lock the brakes on a corner or get a little squirrelly on an exit but that would look bad for the driver. I would have done exactly what Massa did by making it painfully obvious that it had nothing to do with his driving that Alonso overtook him.
Oh on...I would do it on the pit straight...in front of the pit wall, the FIA stewards....i would come out of a corner...speed up...then slow down to let FA pass....

but then i need to type my resume if i did that....
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      07-26-2010, 09:07 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeyBananaz18 View Post
..
The baseball analogy in this thread is spot on.
rubbish.
Not even remotely the same thing.
Massa was already rounding third headed for home.
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      07-26-2010, 09:07 AM   #36
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Reasons Why Ferrari Were Wrong

http://planetf1.com/editorial/627890...ari-Were-Wrong

Some are quite good points...even I do not agree with it entirely....

Quote:
Ferrari have been fined $100,000 for issuing a team order during the German GP. But they were in the wrong not just because they broke the rules...

1) Because It Was Blatant And Shameless
There was nothing subtle about the message given to Felipe Massa and though Rob Smedley's communication was phrased as a question only a naïve fool would have heard anything but an order. How could Ferrari not expect all of us to understand precisely what was being said? How could the team be so blatant? How could they be so shameless?

Team orders are nothing new in F1. But the outlawing of such directives is a relatively-new matter and the real outrage of Ferrari's machinations is that they didn't even have the decency to be subtle about it. They thought themselves untouchable and they thought the rest of us to be gullible fools.

The what was terrible; the how was utterly scandalous.

2) Because Ferrari Continued To Handle It So Very Badly
For a little while after the race there was a nagging suspicion that the team might had forgotten that this was the first grand prix in which all radio communications were available to television. Then came the realisation they really thought they'd get away with it: the adamant denials, all made without so much as a red cheek of a shamed-face, culminating in the laughable how-stupid-do-they-think-we are? claim that Alonso only took the lead because "Massa made a small mistake when shifting up three gears at once". It would be funny if only it wasn't so mocking.

Perhaps, just perhaps, if they had respected our intelligence, and offered a hint of remorse rather than insisted it was all Massa's doing, then it wouldn't have felt quite so outrageous.

A summons to the stewards was their just deserts. With the call to account only being made an hour after the race, it was apparent that it was the public's outrage at their appalling arrogance that belatedly put them in the dock.

In one critical regard, Coulthard is entirely right. The rule needs to be re-written. It needs to state that 'team orders are banned unless the team concerned have sufficient public relations skill and savvy to handle the inevitable outcry without insulting the public and making an embarrassment of themselves as well as the sport'.

3) Because Team Orders Are Banned For A Good Reason
It was Ferrari's manipulation of the Austrian GP in 2002 that prompted the FIA to ban team orders and though reflection on this weekend will quickly descend into a debate of semantics, and the question of whether Smedley's words were sufficiently coded to protect the team from punishment, the centrepiece for all discussions ought to be the reminder of why such instructions are illegal.

On the BBC, David Coulthard described the rule as "silly", but there speaketh a man who has only ever looked at F1 from the inside. It is the people looking from the outside, ie the fans and viewing public, for whom the rule is written so that they are not denied a sporting spectacle and a contest that at least contains a semblance of fairness. We tune in for races, not manipulation.

A wider perspective on this weekend's ugly matter is that team orders are the fine line between F1 being a team sport and being in the business of entertainment. Ferrari dived, two-footed across the line because whatever benefit they achieved from appearing to manipulate the result was miniscule compared to the loss endured by the viewing public expecting a race to the finish. Ferrari didn't just break the rules, they cheated us.

4) Because It Was Appallingly Hypocritical
It was only two races ago that Alonso jumped upon his high horse and castigated the Valencia race stewards for "manipulating" the result. Oh the irony of hindsight.

5) Because The Reason Given To Massa Was Invalid
The red herring of the follow-ups to come will be the data proving or disproving that Alonso was indeed faster than Massa. It matters not. Felipe's response to being told that "Fernando is faster" should have been "so what?" There is no right of way in F1 given to a faster car stuck behind a slower vehicle. If Fernando was faster, then overtake. That's his job. Overtaking is a skill to be performed, not a charity to be handed out.

6) Because Fernando Shouldn't Need Help
As the highest-paid driver in the sport, there are reputedly 30 millions reasons of pounds sterling why Alonso shouldn't need assistance from the pitwall. By not staying neutral in the official view of the stewards, and by denying Alonso the chance to claim victory without interference, Ferrari have tainted both his win and reputation. Will he care about that or about the additional points garnered? It is a question that ought not need asking.

7) Because It Was Too Early In The Season For Team Orders To Be Issued In Any Circumstances
The morals of team orders are ambiguous and permanently shaded in grey. Even the sanctimonious among us will admit that in some circumstances and some times, team orders are an acceptable mechanism for operation. In 2008, for instance, Kimi Raikkonen slowed down to enable Massa to win in China. In 2007 at Brazil, Massa slowed down to let Raikkonen past to claim victory and title. But that was different. It was at the clutch end of the season and there was only one Ferrari driver in contention for the title. A blind-eye was turned because everyone understood the circumstances.

Though it is impossible to state where the dividing line exists, and at which point of the season team orders do become acceptable if not palatable, the answer is not to be found at the halfway stage of a year's campaign. Ferrari's scarcely-coded instruction to Massa was wrong because it was so blatant, so shameless, and so insulting. It was also wrong because it could not be justified as a necessary evil at this stage of the season.

With eight races still to be run, 200 points remain up for grabs. Ferrari's manoeuvring brought Alonso an additional seven. The numbers, compared to the inevitable fuss generated, simply don't add up.

Nor do they justify Massa's second billing. Were he to have prevailed in Sunday's race, he would have arrived in Hungary just 24 points - the equivalent of less than a single race win - behind his team-mate. Ferrari didn't just manipulate the result of a solitary race. In effect, they announced that only one of their drivers is contending in the World Championship.

8) Because Of The Effect It Will Have On Massa
When the dust settles, so will the rankle. Though the outcry will simmer and the next controversy will soon arrive to refocus attention, one half of the Ferrari garage will still know it is second class.

A clairvoyant is hardly required to predict that this episode will damage team harmony, attract discord and impinge on Massa's future performance and results. His morale will be at rock bottom after - apparently - learning that he is not allowed to beat Alonso in a straight fight.

9) Because Ferrari Brought Rob Smedley Into It
The relationship between Massa and Smedley is too strong for it to be seriously damaged by his role of messenger in this sorry episode. But that's no excuse for Ferrari requiring him to do their dirty work. The potential risk of Smedley's involvement harming driver-engineer relations was reason enough to expect somebody else on the pitwall to front up.

10) Because Ferrari Have Turned A Great Story Into A Great Shame
It's not merely that the team have committed a gross act of sporting indecency, insulted and cheated the public, harmed team relations, and affected a PR disaster. They've also missed a PR open goal.

For what better story could there have been on the anniversary of Massa's brush with mortality than his first victory since nearly being blinded in Hungary? Ferrari have turned a great story into a PR disaster. Winners of their first 1-2 since the opening race of the season, the team have contrived to make themselves into the weekend's big losers. What a terrible error of judgement.

Pete Gill
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      07-26-2010, 09:14 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by JoeyBananaz18 View Post
If you're stefano dominicali and you're watching the lap times come up, and you engineers are telling you that the gap between your drivers is closing (with vettel behind them), you realize that if something is not done you risk letting vettel catch up to your drivers. letting the drivers race it out and have alonso pass isnt as easy as it sounds. just passing someone in a formula 1 car is a bit more difficult than the way we pass someone on the highway. and passing can also pose a threat of some kind of crash.
Why hold up a driver that is clearly faster and risk throwing away a 1-2 finish? They new Vettel was back there and they knew that if there was one driver that could overtake them both and go on to win, it was Vettel. I feel sorry that for massa that he was put in that position. i'm a big massa fan and on the 1 year anniversary of his accident, there isn't another driver i wanted to see standing on top of that podium. but the truth is alonso was faster, and you cant let the faster driver be held up and risk loosing the race.

The baseball analogy in this thread is spot on.
So if Massa was so slow why didn't Vettel catch and pass him? Easy answer is that he wasn't fast enough and wouldn't have caught either of them. Ferrai fucked up plain and simple. They allowed Alonso's whining to dictate policy and that was a mistake. They deserve to lose constructor points.

And the baseball analogy is grotesquely inaccurate. Baseball is about scoring runs. In a close game you do whatever you can WITHIN THE RULES to score runs. Nothing even remotely illegal about sacrifice flys. TEAM ORDERS ARE ILLEGAL AND FERRARI GAVE TEAM ORDERS ON AN OPEN LINE!

Both illegal and stupid, especially after Alonso's recent tirades about leniancy shown to other teams.
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      07-26-2010, 09:17 AM   #38
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rubbish.
Not even remotely the same thing.
Massa was already rounding third headed for home.
+1
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      07-26-2010, 09:20 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SonnyJack View Post
So if Massa was so slow why didn't Vettel catch and pass him? Easy answer is that he wasn't fast enough and wouldn't have caught either of them. Ferrai fucked up plain and simple. They allowed Alonso's whining to dictate policy and that was a mistake. They deserve to lose constructor points.

And the baseball analogy is grotesquely inaccurate. Baseball is about scoring runs. In a close game you do whatever you can WITHIN THE RULES to score runs. Nothing even remotely illegal about sacrifice flys. TEAM ORDERS ARE ILLEGAL AND FERRARI GAVE TEAM ORDERS ON AN OPEN LINE!

Both illegal and stupid, especially after Alonso's recent tirades about leniancy shown to other teams.
Its politics inside Ferrari....they want FA to be happy so the Spanish banking SAntander can stay with the Scuderia...etc etc...

but they couldn't do it in a more subtle way and fail to admit and talks to the media and public like they're stupid pisses people off....and turns out to be a major PR nightmare again.....

its not F1 season without some controversy...
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      07-26-2010, 09:26 AM   #40
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There are lots of ways this could have been done and still preserve some semblance of racing ethics.
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      07-26-2010, 09:28 AM   #41
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Their only mistake was making it so blatantly obvious. As others have said team orders have existed since F1 has existed. Does it make for the best thing to watch, of course not, but its part of the sport.

In the 50's, one driver gave up his CAR to his team mate because his own failed and he needed the points to win the championship. How would you guys react to this now?

The mistake was not even making it seem like Massa made a mistake or something that is not as obvious as pulling over on the straight. My feeling is the FIA will remove their points or do something else draconian.

And Alonso did try to overtake a few times once Massa came back out on the hard tires. Massa shut the door on him and Alonso would have had to divebomb him to get past, so for the sake of the team it makes more sense to have the driver with much more points win while keeping a 1-2 for maximum points. The teams want to win the constructors championship first, but the drivers championship is also important to them and that is the main reason for what happened today.
I do not agree on this point. Driver's championships are the only ones that people remember. 10 years from now, people will want to know who won it, and with what team. Not the other way around.

Alonso is so far away from the championship this year, making it pratically impossible to win it. I know there is many races to go, so I say whoever is in front stays in front. No fighting fo the lead between teammates. If we were later in the season, and a teammate had a legitimate chance of winning the Driver's Championship, then you can do it... but not in an obvious manner.

I'm happy Massa made sure the public, officials, and media saw that it was team orders because he did not deserve to have this done to him at this stage of the season.

But hey, it's no surprise when Ferrari is implicated.
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      07-26-2010, 09:35 AM   #42
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Its politics inside Ferrari....they want FA to be happy so the Spanish banking SAntander can stay with the Scuderia...etc etc...

but they couldn't do it in a more subtle way and fail to admit and talks to the media and public like they're stupid pisses people off....and turns out to be a major PR nightmare again.....

its not F1 season without some controversy...
Unfortunately you are right. It's always politics when big money is involved. It's just very frustrating to watch. I guess another way to look at it is that the other teams could have performed better and prevented the entire issue by simply beating the Ferrari's.
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      07-26-2010, 09:39 AM   #43
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I strongly feel this was done as a preventative measure. There is no question that the RB6 chassis is probably the best on the grid. and Ferrari was not going to give the RBR a chance to catch up.


I'd really like someone to explain how the baseball analogy isn't in the same line as what happened yesterday.
Perhaps you prefer a pinch running analogy? slugger hits a triple in the bottom of the ninth. the winning run is now on 3rd. they replace him with a FASTER pinch runner. next batter hits into a single and score the winning run. the guy who got the triple is the reason why the runner was there but doesn't get any credit.
And yes, i know you could argue that all the credit goes to the batter who scored the RBI. but then what are you going to say? "it's a team sport?" whats F1 racing supposed to be.

Truth is, and everyone (whether they are for or against what ferrari did) will agree, if it was the other way around, with Massa passing Alonso, and Massa winning the race, no one would say a word. Oh ,but its Alonso passing Massa who had that accident last year and he deserves to win and Alonso is an asshole so let's let the media make a spectacle out of it. Again, I'm a Massa fan. but Alonso is the faster driver.

It relieves me to know that after the next race there will be a new drama story that will unfold and this will all be another closed chapter in the story of F!.
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      07-26-2010, 09:41 AM   #44
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I agree w/ all 10 points above but #7 is the one I agree w/ the most. This is why it pissed me off so much
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