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      07-25-2010, 04:48 PM   #1
JoeyBananaz18
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Ferrari team order controversy.

let me hear your thoughts.
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      07-25-2010, 06:04 PM   #2
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Alonso is on better place for the drivers championship, his points advantage to Massa is not for team orders at this point. I know it sucks for sport, but dont forget the manufacturers are not there for the glory and the throphy's, they are for money. So, as a Ferrari boss what you would say? c'mon fight for the firts place, crash both and get 0 points! on these levels of competition, and FA far ahead on the table, take risk is not a big deal. Remember the Red Bull affair or McLaren telling to stop because the fuel ... its racing.
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      07-25-2010, 06:26 PM   #3
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Ferrari have been fined and IMO deserved it.

http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news...726-10qt1.html
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      07-25-2010, 06:39 PM   #4
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they deserved a lot more than they got though.
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      07-25-2010, 06:47 PM   #5
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I'm sure you enjoyed the fake win for FA....
He wasn't a race driver...he didn't even bother to try to overtake...just ask the team and he will get the team mate out of the way....
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      07-25-2010, 06:50 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by TrackRat View Post
So you wouldn't tell a baseball player to hit a sacrifice fly ball to score a run and win the game?
not a perfect comparison per se....
but in both ways, Ferrari will get 1-2 unless both crashed out...

however FA didn't even bother to pass Massa....that's not what a true racer's attitude....so much for FA "I don't know anything about it"....
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      07-25-2010, 06:52 PM   #7
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So you wouldn't tell a baseball player to hit a sacrifice fly ball to score a run and win the game?
Have no idea what that means as baseball is not big here. If it's illegal, then no.

What Ferrari did is illegal, hence the fine and they tried to cover what they were doing with some clever wording to Massa.
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      07-25-2010, 07:13 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by TrackRat View Post
Team orders have existed since the beginning of auto racing and that won't change just because the FIA makes an improper rule instead of educating fans that F1 is a team sport. Technically what Ferrari did was not illegal but the FIA needs to keep the technically challenged appeased.
+1

I don't see what the big deal is. They first and foremost race for the team, not themselves.
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      07-25-2010, 07:35 PM   #9
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Their only mistake was making it so blatantly obvious. As others have said team orders have existed since F1 has existed. Does it make for the best thing to watch, of course not, but its part of the sport.

In the 50's, one driver gave up his CAR to his team mate because his own failed and he needed the points to win the championship. How would you guys react to this now?

The mistake was not even making it seem like Massa made a mistake or something that is not as obvious as pulling over on the straight. My feeling is the FIA will remove their points or do something else draconian.

And Alonso did try to overtake a few times once Massa came back out on the hard tires. Massa shut the door on him and Alonso would have had to divebomb him to get past, so for the sake of the team it makes more sense to have the driver with much more points win while keeping a 1-2 for maximum points. The teams want to win the constructors championship first, but the drivers championship is also important to them and that is the main reason for what happened today.
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      07-25-2010, 07:52 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Zoli007 View Post
Their only mistake was making it so blatantly obvious. As others have said team orders have existed since F1 has existed. Does it make for the best thing to watch, of course not, but its part of the sport.

In the 50's, one driver gave up his CAR to his team mate because his own failed and he needed the points to win the championship. How would you guys react to this now?

The mistake was not even making it seem like Massa made a mistake or something that is not as obvious as pulling over on the straight. My feeling is the FIA will remove their points or do something else draconian.

And Alonso did try to overtake a few times once Massa came back out on the hard tires. Massa shut the door on him and Alonso would have had to divebomb him to get past, so for the sake of the team it makes more sense to have the driver with much more points win while keeping a 1-2 for maximum points. The teams want to win the constructors championship first, but the drivers championship is also important to them and that is the main reason for what happened today.
I agree completely with everything you just said. Not sure how people can say Alonso never tried to overtake him
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      07-25-2010, 07:53 PM   #11
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If he can't get by then he doesn't deserve to win.
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      07-25-2010, 08:02 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrackRat View Post
Team orders have existed since the beginning of auto racing and that won't change just because the FIA makes an improper rule.
It's CHEATING man. Guess you also follow just the rules you like. And it's a rule for a reason: IT DETRACTS FROM THE SPORT. Just like when an Uruguay player pushed the ball out of the goal with his hands. Yeah, did it 'for the team', but what an illegitimate way to win. Anyway, it's useless to discuss this with people who think anything goes as long as it benefits 'the team'. And since you're not part of the M3 'team', I'm 'kicking' (as ignoring) you out . And this crap comes from a supposed 'track rat' .
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      07-25-2010, 08:24 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elp_jc View Post
It's CHEATING man. Guess you also follow just the rules you like. And it's a rule for a reason: IT DETRACTS FROM THE SPORT. Just like when an Uruguay player pushed the ball out of the goal with his hands. Yeah, did it 'for the team', but what an illegitimate way to win. Anyway, it's useless to discuss this with people who think anything goes as long as it benefits 'the team'. And since you're not part of the M3 'team', I'm 'kicking' (as ignoring) you out . And this crap comes from a supposed 'track rat' .
The only one who benefited was Alonso. The "team" would have scored maximum points regardless of whether it was alonso-massa, or massa-alonso. That's the part that blows. No way will Alonso win the drivers championship this year. Too erratic. He's in 5th place because he is the 5th best driver. He needs to quit his fucking bitching and drive more consistently.
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      07-25-2010, 09:13 PM   #14
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If he can't get pass Massa without team order then he's not good enough to win today...
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      07-25-2010, 09:22 PM   #15
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The FIA needs to get rid of the ban on team orders.

They still exist and will continue to exist; it's ridiculous that the team should have to put on some elaborate show to make it look like it happened on accident (we'd all still know that Massa was told to give up the position). Alonso did make a few attempts to pass, and probably decided it was best to have the team resolve it rather then make a dive down the inside and potentially end both driver's race. That would not have helped the team.

For those of you against team orders; do you view it as unfair to the other teams, or to the other driver?

If it's because of the other teams, this played no major role in how the race finished. Vettel was still 3rd. In fact, it would probably have been easier for him to overtake Massa for 2nd then Alonso.

If it's because of how it establishes an obvious "favorite driver" within the team. Well that's life. Everyone's not equal and in F1, drivers are not equal. Alonso, Schumacher, Hamilton, Vettel, Raikkonen… those are all #1 drivers. Not based solely on ability behind the wheel, but also their out of car character.
All teams play favorites. Look at Redbull giving Webber's front wing to Seb when his was damaged; or Mercedes changing to a longer chassis because it was what Schumacher preferred.
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      07-25-2010, 09:24 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by E90SLAM View Post
If he can't get pass Massa without team order then he's not good enough to win today...
Is that a good reason to say the same thing when Alonso (hypotheticaly) loses the driving championship by a few points had today not happened?

Belive me I dont like it one bit, but its nothing new in the sport. The fact that the rules exists against it are pretty clear. Ferrari are playing their sly game that they never ordered Massa to let him past, but as is clear, no one is buying it.

Im quite sure that Ferrari will at the least lose all points for today, and possibly be excluded from this years championships in regards to points.

In the end of the day, the teams are there to win, BOTH championships. If they let Massa win to be "fair" and they lose a championship because of it, they're stupid. The mistake was making it so blatant.

Truth is Alonso has quite thoroughly outperformed Massa this whole season. Massa is a decent driver when the car works in his favor, otherwise he's an also ran. Massa would not have been able to do half of what Alonso did with last years Renault, nor has he been able to keep pace with Alonso this year while the car has been terrible. Alonso was faster today, not by much, but he was faster. Ferrari took a decision which will haunt them, but in their mind it was the smartest thing to do looking at why they exist, to win, both championships at all costs.
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      07-25-2010, 09:50 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by SonnyJack View Post
The only one who benefited was Alonso. The "team" would have scored maximum points regardless of whether it was alonso-massa, or massa-alonso. That's the part that blows. No way will Alonso win the drivers championship this year. Too erratic. He's in 5th place because he is the 5th best driver. He needs to quit his fucking bitching and drive more consistently.
Uhh... if Massa was holding him up then Alonso would have to overtake him (an unnecessary risk from a team point of view) or else Vettel would catch up to him since the gap between Alonso and Vettel was shrinking.
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      07-25-2010, 10:52 PM   #18
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There is no team order controversy because there are no team orders.

The media needs something to fill white space and the fanbois need something to bitch about or they'll forget F1 exist. SOS, DD.

Carry on.
This reply leads me to think that you didn't even see the race. The team order was obvious, only short of directly saying, "let Alonso pass".

I'll agree the media gets carried away with many things, but today it's with good reason. Just when I give Ferrari credit for having such fast cars, and good drivers the team blows it by sending a team order.

Answer me this, If Alonso was so much faster, why didn't he simply pass Massa under normal racing circumstances. From a driver and team joint perspective, Massa doesn't really have a chance at the DC. But Alonso really doesn't either. I think once Mclaren gets their upgrades in order Ferrari will be fully back into 3rd place. So from a team perspective only, the result is exactly the same either way.
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      07-25-2010, 10:53 PM   #19
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Despite all your emotion, there was no cheating. It's not illegal to allow your teammate to pass you. What's illegal is for the team to manipulate the outcome by giving team orders. Technically Ferrari did not give any team orders. They told Massa that Alonso was faster and asked if he understood. Technically that is not telling him to allow Alonso to pass. You'd never make that stick in a court of law.

That being said, all teams use team orders to control their destiny so it's pointless to have a fantasy FIA rule to appease the technically clueless fans and media. If you don't understand F1 is a team sport, then you're already hopelessly lost.

It is what it is - a team sport and the team has an obligation to do what is best for the team and they all do it. Before 2003 there was no rule, because most people except for some fans and media, actually understand F1 racing is a team sport and the drivers drive for the team as directed.
So, where was all of Alonso's team support and spirit when he bitched on the radio in illegible words about not being able to pass Massa?

The message wasn't simply, "Alonso is faster." The message was, "Alonso is faster, can you confirm that you understand this message?" The latter being well and above more telling I think.
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      07-25-2010, 10:59 PM   #20
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Let me clarify a bit that I don't really have an issue with team orders, I fully understand their importance. However, I just think Ferrari performed theirs in very poor taste in Germany.

Such a great weekend for them, and such a great drive by both their drivers and then their management shits all over it with an ill conceived team order, with even poorer execution.
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      07-25-2010, 11:38 PM   #21
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This, also, is reality.

Quote:
Ferrari fined $100,000 for using team orders

Fernando Alonso gets to keep his German GP victory but may have to take a pay cut after Ferrari were fined $100,000 for using team orders in Germany.
Source: http://planet-f1.com/news/3213/62790...-Results-Stand
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      07-25-2010, 11:39 PM   #22
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Quote:
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So, where was all of Alonso's team support and spirit when he bitched on the radio in illegible words about not being able to pass Massa?

The message wasn't simply, "Alonso is faster." The message was, "Alonso is faster, can you confirm that you understand this message?" The latter being well and above more telling I think.
And wat's with all the radio after FA passed?
"Good lad, now get on with it. Sorry."
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