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      03-13-2007, 07:25 PM   #23
epiphone3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
I agree on this.

To the OP: WHAT IS YOUR SOURCE? There have been and continues to be som many rumors and debate on the car why should be all stop now and believe everything you say. Also, it is not like you have much of a track record we can judge you by (10 posts total).

As far as no sunroof available (thanks for the sympathy Randy - I guess applying paint is a lot easier than adding a sunroof to a CF panel!) I'm not sure I buy this for the US market. Based on sunroof being a std. on many BMWs in the US i n the past.

As far as hp goes I think anywhere in the 420 range will be under-rated. I've said it a million times but the 335i and M5 are both significantly under rated and the new M3 will probably be as well. It is another question entirely if this much hp can keep the M3 competitive over it's entire life span. If the weight is lower than I expect I think the answer is yes, otherwise with the bump in power coming at Audi, MB and P, I think the answer is no. Luckily BMW has probably thought long and hard about this point. Last but not least, 100 hp/l is not exactly "shit hot" anymore. Honda, Porsche, Audi, BMW, Ferarri, and Toyota have done it NA'd. 110 is what I would call "shit hot".
well, if the M3 is rated by BMW at 420 hp, it will likely actually be producing about 450 hp. That means 112.5 hp/liter... SHIT HOT!

as a side note... the list of manufactureres you have above, other than Audi, are basically the absolute best engine constructors in the world... BMW #1 of course. I guess the 100hp/liter club is good company
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      03-13-2007, 09:39 PM   #24
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450?

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Originally Posted by epiphone3 View Post
well, if the M3 is rated by BMW at 420 hp, it will likely actually be producing about 450 hp. That means 112.5 hp/liter... SHIT HOT!

as a side note... the list of manufactureres you have above, other than Audi, are basically the absolute best engine constructors in the world... BMW #1 of course. I guess the 100hp/liter club is good company
I'd make a large wager we don't get 450 actual, we certainly won't see it reported. 450 hp from a NA 4.0 l would indeed be "shit hot". Doesn't that term allow me to make comparisons only to the best?
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      03-13-2007, 09:53 PM   #25
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Wowwww.....news about the ///M3 is getting more and more exciting . Any clue as to when the ///M3 will be available in Asia/Australia? (You guys get the ///M before us and I'm so jealous)
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      03-14-2007, 03:21 AM   #26
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source

when you work for the manufacturer(as i do) you get to no a few bits and pieces. lets leave it at that shall we
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      03-14-2007, 04:02 AM   #27
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Smg Or Dsg ??
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      03-14-2007, 04:24 AM   #28
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6 speed manual at launch an alternative transmission sum time next year.
ok this is worrying me now..
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      03-14-2007, 04:26 AM   #29
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. And I want original paint so I will probably just roll around looking like a teenager in a japanese car with the exposed CF. Are they going to leave the fenders bare plastic to show that off too?!

never understood the fascination with CF bits on the car
looks tacky to me.
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      03-14-2007, 05:38 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manz_UK View Post

never understood the fascination with CF bits on the car
looks tacky to me.
Tell you something; make the whole damn car out off CF, and than give it a decent painting.....
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      03-14-2007, 06:41 AM   #31
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Transmission

Smg Or Dsg ??

They would not state what type it was SMG or DSG but because of this i think that it will be a DSG type gearbox. When M5 was launched we were told they were already testing SMG 4. which could incorpoarate a double clutch system... Which i think will debut in the M3...
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      03-14-2007, 07:39 AM   #32
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Tell you something; make the whole damn car out off CF, and than give it a decent painting.....
Now you're talking, a la F50!
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      03-14-2007, 09:02 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
I agree on this.

As far as hp goes I think anywhere in the 420 range will be under-rated. I've said it a million times but the 335i and M5 are both significantly under rated and the new M3 will probably be as well.

It is another question entirely if this much hp can keep the M3 competitive over it's entire life span. If the weight is lower than I expect I think the answer is yes, otherwise with the bump in power coming at Audi, MB and P, I think the answer is no.
I think it is unlikely the M3 will be underrated in terms of hp by BMW.

There is a clear reason why the 335 is underrated -- it is encroaching on M3 territory for presumably much less money. The only reason to underrate the M3 would be out of concern for encroaching on the M5/M6. I do not think even 450 would raise such concerns, particularly if the M5/6 really are significantly underrated, and given the different target customers for these models. Rating the M3 to its true power aids in marketing, because of the importance many people place in hp. If the motor really outputs 420, I do not think BMW will publicise 410 instead. That would be marketing suicide given the levels the competition is reaching. BMW knows this.

The M3 will not be available for sale until late this year at the earliest, assuming September production startup. It will probably be on sale through at least the 2013 model year. IMHO 420 is only aqequate now in this class, unless weight is crazy low for this type of vehicle. How will 420 compare two or three years from now?
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      03-14-2007, 09:13 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ILC32 View Post
I think it is unlikely the M3 will be underrated in terms of hp by BMW.

There is a clear reason why the 335 is underrated -- it is encroaching on M3 territory for presumably much less money. The only reason to underrate the M3 would be out of concern for encroaching on the M5/M6. I do not think even 450 would raise such concerns, particularly if the M5/6 really are significantly underrated, and given the different target customers for these models. Rating the M3 to its true power aids in marketing, because of the importance many people place in hp. If the motor really outputs 420, I do not think BMW will publicise 410 instead. That would be marketing suicide given the levels the competition is reaching. BMW knows this.

The M3 will not be available for sale until late this year at the earliest, assuming September production startup. It will probably be on sale through at least the 2013 model year. IMHO 420 is only aqequate now in this class, unless weight is crazy low for this type of vehicle. How will 420 compare two or three years from now?

In a sector that is probably as if not more competative than the M3s sector, BMW underated the 335i. They called it 300 even though lexus claims 306 for the IS350... I don't think BMW is into have a number higher than others. They will likely underate the M3.
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      03-14-2007, 09:57 AM   #35
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Uderrated

I agree BMW Will headline a BHP just in front of audi. but be sure of this it will beat it by a long way. What is more annoying for a manufacturer than having a car with less power or engine size and beating you. just gets embarrasing.
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      03-14-2007, 09:58 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by epiphone3 View Post
In a sector that is probably as if not more competative than the M3s sector, BMW underated the 335i. They called it 300 even though lexus claims 306 for the IS350... I don't think BMW is into have a number higher than others. They will likely underate the M3.
Agreed. Plus what would be the reason to underrate the M5 M6? There is nothing to encroach upon at that level which would necessitate an understatement of hp...
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      03-14-2007, 10:07 AM   #37
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From what I read, the car should weigh at most 3600 lbs, which is still at least 350 lbs lighter than an RS4.

Whatever the final power output, as long as the car can consistently hit 100 km/h in 4.1s --- with the DSG tranny, itís all good. :rocks:

Car and Driver seems to think the new C63 AMG will be close to 500 hp.
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      03-14-2007, 11:11 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chitown08 View Post
Agreed. Plus what would be the reason to underrate the M5 M6? There is nothing to encroach upon at that level which would necessitate an understatement of hp...
exactly. Why did they underrate the M5? The answer to this is that BMW personell have stated that they think getting into a number's race with other manufacturer's is silly and they would rather draw attention to the fact that the total package in BMW is better than the others. They could easily have called the 335i 307 hp just to trump the 306 of the IS350 seeing as the 335i is actually making on the order of 330 - 340 hp!
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      03-14-2007, 11:37 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by epiphone3 View Post
exactly. Why did they underrate the M5? The answer to this is that BMW personell have stated that they think getting into a number's race with other manufacturer's is silly and they would rather draw attention to the fact that the total package in BMW is better than the others. They could easily have called the 335i 307 hp just to trump the 306 of the IS350 seeing as the 335i is actually making on the order of 330 - 340 hp!
Everyone talks about underrating the M5 and M6 as if it is a well-known fact. Maybe I'm uninformed on this. Can anyone point me to info showing that the M5/M6 are underrated by BMW?

Edit: I did some searching on M5Board, and to me it looks like at least for the US version, dyno results fall pretty much as expected for a 507 hp car with SMG based on 15-17% drivetrain loss:

http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/sho...highlight=dyno

http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/sho...highlight=dyno

http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/sho...highlight=dyno

http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/sho...highlight=dyno

Last edited by ILC32; 03-14-2007 at 11:56 AM.
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      03-14-2007, 12:20 PM   #40
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I've always understood that the M5 was making more like 525 - 535 horsepower. Turnermotorsports claims this as well... I am not sure that the SMG should such a high drive-train loss coefficient as 15-17%... it is a manual transmission.
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      03-14-2007, 12:43 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by epiphone3 View Post
I've always understood that the M5 was making more like 525 - 535 horsepower. Turnermotorsports claims this as well... I am not sure that the SMG should such a high drive-train loss coefficient as 15-17%... it is a manual transmission.
I've asked the question on M5Board. Maybe some owners will pipe in on this . . .
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      03-14-2007, 01:00 PM   #42
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1/4 mi trap speed

Quote:
Originally Posted by ILC32 View Post
Everyone talks about underrating the M5 and M6 as if it is a well-known fact. Maybe I'm uninformed on this. Can anyone point me to info showing that the M5/M6 are underrated by BMW?
I don't have more details either right now but I do remember folks using the 1/4 mi trap speed as evidence of the under rating, given the cars weight.
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      03-14-2007, 01:09 PM   #43
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Manufacturer

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Originally Posted by ukm3 View Post
when you work for the manufacturer(as i do) you get to no a few bits and pieces. lets leave it at that shall we
OK not to sweat the details too much but you work for BMW Group? Group is the "manufacturer". Even more specifically since this is an M car this must mean you work for BMW M GmbH? If you work for BMW in the UK wouldn't that actually mean you work for BMW UK which is not "the manufacturer" but the distributor, an entirely different company.

If you are going to say where you work, make bold claims and expect folks to believe you I guess we can't really "leave it at that".
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      03-14-2007, 01:14 PM   #44
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So is it safe to assume that since manual will only be offered at first, we should see a DSG-esque transmission next year?
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