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      07-14-2010, 02:00 AM   #1
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Cool Carbon vs. Hawk HPS

I've got a few track events scheduled over the next couple months. I'm gonna do the poor-man's brake upgrade: Motul fluid, more aggressive pads, and probably SS lines.

My question is what pad should I get? I want a trackable street pad because I'm simply not up for changing them back and forth between events (maybe someday). Looking for decent cold bite, low dust, low squeal, and obviously less fade on the track when hot. I'm leaning toward Cool Carbon, but have heard a lot about Hawk. Others to consider?

Any other guidance appreciated.
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      07-14-2010, 07:02 AM   #2
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pads

pagid rs19 and rs 29
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      07-14-2010, 08:59 AM   #3
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I run the Hawk HP+'s and have had good results with them for the last 2 years.They seem to be very rotor friendly but they do squeel like crazy on light stops but otherwise work OK for everyday use.
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      07-14-2010, 01:13 PM   #4
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I had a set of cool carbon pads. They're fine for light braking on the street. They don't squeal. However, on the track, they don't have good cold bite. I had a few OHH SH$%# moments with them on the track when they're cold. Once they're warmed up, they're ok. They certainly fade less than the OEM pads, but they do fade.
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      07-15-2010, 07:23 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patroclo001 View Post
pagid rs19 and rs 29
These are more dedicated race/track pads. I want a high-performance street pad. Maybe the rs421?

http://www.braketechnology.com/racecharacteristics.html
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      07-15-2010, 08:36 AM   #6
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Pagid RS19's also squeal like crazy on light stops for everyday use.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gearhead999s View Post
I run the Hawk HP+'s and have had good results with them for the last 2 years.They seem to be very rotor friendly but they do squeel like crazy on light stops but otherwise work OK for everyday use.
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      07-15-2010, 08:41 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sleeper519 View Post
These are more dedicated race/track pads. I want a high-performance street pad. Maybe the rs421?

http://www.braketechnology.com/racecharacteristics.html
What's the problem with stock pads on the street?
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      07-15-2010, 12:56 PM   #8
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The CC pads are a street pad that many BMW owners been quite happy with for occasional HPDEs.

Comparisons against any full race pad and especially ones at 2x to 3x the price (that were actually full race pads) are not really valid. If you are already a track junkie and the goal is a full track/race pad, then the Cool Carbon S/T pad is likely not the best choice.

If a high performance street pad is the goal (that can also handle occasional track events) than the CC pads can be an excellent choice and also one that has developed a strong following.
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      07-15-2010, 02:01 PM   #9
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I've used cool carbon pads on my 335i (several sets) without issue track and street. I've got a set of cool carbons to throw on with SRF fluid. If I have issues BBK is the next step.
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      07-15-2010, 03:26 PM   #10
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The Pagid RS29 is probably the best choice in terms of track and street.
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      07-15-2010, 04:42 PM   #11
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i have a set of hawk hp plus pads... very good pads with great bite and no fade when doing 20 to 30 min lapping sessions. only thing is that they squeal a lot when theyre not up to temp and when braking lightly... very annoying around town but the performance is undeniable.
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      07-15-2010, 09:41 PM   #12
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There is no compromise, really. The stock pads are excellent on the street and the track. They only fade at the limit upon extreme use, which doesn't sound like something you're about to dish out. If you really want the best performance for the track, you're going to have to come to terms with spending the hour to change out the pads. At this point, I highly recommend the Hawk DTC-70's front and rear. Totally awesome. No fading, no squealing, rotor friendly, and easy on the wallet. You can brake late and hard all weekend long, and they stay consistent. I just wouoldn't recommend them for extended street use though.
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      07-15-2010, 11:21 PM   #13
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Let me just set the tone with this. You are temping fate running HP+ pads. It is a terrible track pad. The MOT (Maximum operating temp) is less that 1000F (similar to OEM), and the friction curve drops like a rock - giving you very little warning of total loss of braking. Infiniti/Nissan made the same mistake, and easy to find references to C&D crashing a 370z due to this issue.

Why people think the HP+ is good is because it has a relative (to OEM) high friction coef - so it bites well and feels more powerful. The moment you learn how to drive the car at 9/10ths - or more likely make a mistake and need the headroom of your braking system to save you, you will be in trouble. You're better off with OEM, which has a progressive, predictable loss of friction at high temps, or moving to something with a higher MOT, like a true race pad.

Think of brakes like a seatbelt - it's part of the safety equipment. You are playing with your life, and it's easy to remove risk associated with brake failure by manning up and spending the time and $ to run a real race pad.
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      07-16-2010, 04:39 AM   #14
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I want DTC-70s, are there any significant downsides to them if I am changing them out strictly for the weekend event (not running them on the street daily, just to/back from the event) ???
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      07-16-2010, 04:58 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FruitCake View Post
I want DTC-70s, are there any significant downsides to them if I am changing them out strictly for the weekend event (not running them on the street daily, just to/back from the event) ???
IMHO, not at all. They do not fade. I pretty much drive like the old saying... "don't brake until you see God". When I used the DTC-70's at VIR's Grand East course this past June, that's exactly what I did... lap after lap, session after session. The only downside is, they're not compatible with the brake wear sensors, so you'll have to run with the brake warning light on, which isn't a big deal (you don't notice it once you're driving).
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      07-16-2010, 06:24 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3V8Driver View Post
IMHO, not at all. They do not fade. I pretty much drive like the old saying... "don't brake until you see God". When I used the DTC-70's at VIR's Grand East course this past June, that's exactly what I did... lap after lap, session after session. The only downside is, they're not compatible with the brake wear sensors, so you'll have to run with the brake warning light on, which isn't a big deal (you don't notice it once you're driving).
Don't you just tie back the sensor cord? It activates when it is worn
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      07-16-2010, 08:25 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jml View Post
Let me just set the tone with this. You are temping fate running HP+ pads. It is a terrible track pad. The MOT (Maximum operating temp) is less that 1000F (similar to OEM), and the friction curve drops like a rock - giving you very little warning of total loss of braking. Infiniti/Nissan made the same mistake, and easy to find references to C&D crashing a 370z due to this issue.

Why people think the HP+ is good is because it has a relative (to OEM) high friction coef - so it bites well and feels more powerful. The moment you learn how to drive the car at 9/10ths - or more likely make a mistake and need the headroom of your braking system to save you, you will be in trouble. You're better off with OEM, which has a progressive, predictable loss of friction at high temps, or moving to something with a higher MOT, like a true race pad.

Think of brakes like a seatbelt - it's part of the safety equipment. You are playing with your life, and it's easy to remove risk associated with brake failure by manning up and spending the time and $ to run a real race pad.
I have to disagree with totaly on the HP+'s.I have used them for 2&1/2 seasons with over 25 events with no great issues.Yes they do fade but it is a very progressive action that be felt through the brake pedal and smell when the pads are starting to overheat.I have never been suprised by a lack of retardation and I am usually one of the fast guys and I run at tracks where hard braking is required a few times a lap from speeds as high as 225 kph.
I would run a full race pad if it was less of a hassle to change pads when I am changing back to my street tires but I know a full race pad will just destroy my rotors when they are cold on the street.The HP + is far from being a dangerous pad that you state and works very much as its being marketed.
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      07-16-2010, 09:01 PM   #18
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Quote:
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Don't you just tie back the sensor cord? It activates when it is worn
Yes, you "tie back the cord", but you do get a warning light because there's nothing there for the sensor to sense
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      07-16-2010, 09:26 PM   #19
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Quote:
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Yes, you "tie back the cord", but you do get a warning light because there's nothing there for the sensor to sense
Not if you leave the sensors plugged in and tie up the sensor wire close to the pad insert so the vibration does not break it off.When that happens you get the warning light.
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      07-16-2010, 09:41 PM   #20
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Quote:
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Not if you leave the sensors plugged in and tie up the sensor wire close to the pad insert so the vibration does not break it off.When that happens you get the warning light.
What? Can you please elaborate? Since the sensor doesn't plug into the Hawk pads, I tied the whole thing up to the brake line. I didn't notice if anything else comes apart, but doing this, I did get the brake warning light. After I put the stock pads back in with the sensors connected, the light went off (back to normal).
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      07-16-2010, 09:52 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3V8Driver View Post
What? Can you please elaborate? Since the sensor doesn't plug into the Hawk pads, I tied the whole thing up to the brake line. I didn't notice if anything else comes apart, but doing this, I did get the brake warning light. After I put the stock pads back in with the sensors connected, the light went off (back to normal).
I have been doing this for years since my E30 days and the only problem has been when the weight of the padsensor breaks the wire which is why you tie them up so the end is supported.Maybe your wire to the sensor was broken?
All the sensor does is complete the circuit to keep the warning light off.
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      07-16-2010, 11:05 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3V8Driver View Post
Yes, you "tie back the cord", but you do get a warning light because there's nothing there for the sensor to sense
I don't. The sensor is totally passive until the plastic is abraded by the disc and trips the sensor. I am guessing it breaks the circuit and trips the ECU. I have always tied it back catching the cord and the plastic unit so nothing is rattling about
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