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      03-09-2007, 08:36 PM   #1
swamp2
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Interesting facts and speculation from Edmunds

OK since until BMW releases some official info basically all we have is gossip. This article seems well written and most things they say just make sense with what we know so far. Surely some mags and websites have better insider contacts than most of us, so maybe much of this is true.

Since I am straving for some REAL information and this seems as good as I have seen I am posting it.
  • 414 hp
  • 295 ft lb torque
  • 8000 rpm redline
  • Displacement 3.999 l (4 l)
  • 92.0mm bore and a 75.2mm stroke (identical to E60 M5)
  • 1.6" wider at the front fenders than 335i
  • Perfect 50-50 weight balance
  • Extra sheet steel reinforcements in body floor for rigidity
  • Vent on rear bumper is outlet of a venturi used to cool rear differential
  • Full chassi "undertray" for better aerodynamics
  • BMW is close to finalizing production plans for dual clutch tranny (ZSG) so maybe no SMG

Source: http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do...ticleId=108751
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      03-09-2007, 08:59 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
OK since until BMW releases some official info basically all we have is gossip. This article seems well written and most things they say just make sense with what we know so far. Surely some mags and websites have better insider contacts than most of us, so maybe much of this is true.

Since I am straving for some REAL information and this seems as good as I have seen I am posting it.
  • 414 hp
  • 295 ft lb torque
  • 8000 rpm redline
  • Displacement 3.999 l (4 l)
  • 92.0mm bore and a 75.2mm stroke (identical to E60 M5)
  • 1.6" wider at the front fenders than 335i
  • Perfect 50-50 weight balance
  • Extra sheet steel reinforcements in body floor for rigidity
  • Vent on rear bumper is outlet of a venturi used to cool rear differential
  • Full chassi "undertray" for better aerodynamics
  • BMW is close to finalizing production plans for dual clutch tranny (ZSG) so maybe no SMG

Source: http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do...ticleId=108751

How close is close for that ZSG & will it have any bugs is the problem...I really hope this all close to right but maybe a little off on HP in that we might actually get more I hope, but I'll be happy if nothing changes from this list...
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      03-09-2007, 09:16 PM   #3
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hp

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Originally Posted by monsta View Post
How close is close for that ZSG & will it have any bugs is the problem...I really hope this all close to right but maybe a little off on HP in that we might actually get more I hope, but I'll be happy if nothing changes from this list...
I guess I am still looking for bragging rights a bit. I would be happy with anything > RS4. I know that is not what is really important, but darn I just want it. If this is true about the redline (why hasn't someone got a close up of that yet...) and they restrict it from 8250 down to 8000 this could have an effect of about 15 hp! I can't imagine why they would do this on their "uber coupe", but may do so. I think it'll have DGI as well which should make up some hp ground. If it gets DGI+8250 redline it should be well into the 430+ range actual (not reported) with NO OTHER engine enhancements since the M5 was developed.

Of all the things they reported I think the hp/tq are the most unbelievable.

Last edited by swamp2; 03-09-2007 at 09:17 PM. Reason: P.S. Nice avatar! I chose the one with the "production" 19"
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      03-09-2007, 09:44 PM   #4
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Good find Swamp

Definitly the most informative and best article I've read thus far. Makes me feel good that the final production car will likley resemble the "concept" we saw in Geneva.
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      03-09-2007, 10:05 PM   #5
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good find. the article and video in the link were great.
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      03-10-2007, 12:31 AM   #6
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Even if the M3 is stated to have 414 HP, most likely it will dyno at more than that. They want to keep a decent delta between the M5's 500 HP and the M3's #. Keep in mind that the M5 really makes more like 520-530 HP, so figure the real figure for the M3 will be 430-440 HP.

Automobile online says that SMG is dead and the DSG will be coming out at, or shortly after launch. See this from automobile mag online
http://www.automobilemag.com/auto_sh...mw_m3_concept/
. . .

"There's no question about it, the M3 is one of only a handful of cars on just about every enthusiast's dream list for the last twenty years or so. The reason for that is simple: It uses the BMW 3-series-the best sports sedan in the business-as a starting point, and trims the fat even farther.

Since the first M3 debuted in 1988, it has grown in just about every way, and the new M3 is no exception. It has twice the amount of cylinders as the first M3 and more than twice the horsepower. Luckily, it doesn't weigh twice as much weight.

That means this M3 will be the fastest one yet. We're still waiting for BMW to release final numbers, but under the hood resides a 4.0-liter V-8 that we expect to make about 415 horsepower. That's 115 more horses than the twin-turbo 335i, which is already almost as fast as the last generation M3.

It used to be that quick cars made 115 horsepower - not 115 more than other ridiculously fast cars. Here's to wretched excess! Sign us up.

The car you see in these photographs is being shown in Geneva as a concept, but expect the production car to look the same. Changes relative to the coupe include the power dome hood, unique front and rear fascias, rear diffusers, a carbon fiber roof, and the vented front plastic fenders. In fact, the only body parts the M3 shares with the standard 3-series coupe are the angel-eye headlights, taillights, doors, deck lid, and glass.

The nineteen-inch, sixteen-spoke forged alloy wheels should make it to production, and we expect they will be connected to the high-revving V-8 by way of either a conventional six-speed manual transmission or a new twin-clutch unit a la DSG. SMG is, thankfully, dead.

But the M3 is very much alive."
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      03-10-2007, 04:30 AM   #7
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I don't believe the V8 gets a lower redline than the V10, so 8250rpm should be a safe guess...

Best regards, south
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      03-10-2007, 04:52 AM   #8
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It all depends on how much it weights... If it weights over 3500lbs I might buy an Elise instead and save myself some money.
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      03-10-2007, 04:58 AM   #9
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i hope the list would be very close to reality, i dont mind extra 15 hp as well
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      03-10-2007, 06:02 AM   #10
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Question Transmission...

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Originally Posted by southlight View Post
I don't believe the V8 gets a lower redline than the V10, so 8250rpm should be a safe guess...

Best regards, south
Hey South

There seems to be alot of confusion around transmission spec on the new M3, standard manual, SMG, DSG etc. Do you have any inside knowledge on this?

Cheers, and thanks in advance
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      03-10-2007, 06:23 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Head View Post


Hey South

There seems to be alot of confusion around transmission spec on the new M3, standard manual, SMG, DSG etc. Do you have any inside knowledge on this?

Cheers, and thanks in advance
Head

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmern View Post
No SMG for M3 E92. Dual clutch 03/08.
That's the most accurate information. So we start with the manual and the DSG will follow (maybe it's ready for the US launch). Maybe Scott can comfirm this, then we have real inside knowledge...

Best regards, south
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      03-10-2007, 09:20 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by southlight View Post
I don't believe the V8 gets a lower redline than the V10, so 8250rpm should be a safe guess...

Best regards, south
Agreed. From the concept photos, and even from that shot of the gauge cluster from the mule of a few months ago, the redline looks to be at 8250, In the concept it looks like the yellow zone starts at 8k. You cannot quite see the red, but it must be over 8000. Why no one shot the tach clearly is beyond me. All of that of course is proof that the photogs at the show are not enthusiasts!
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      03-10-2007, 12:51 PM   #13
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Is it just me or is the sub 300 lb-ft of torque also a very conservative number?
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      03-10-2007, 02:47 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by southlight View Post
I don't believe the V8 gets a lower redline than the V10, so 8250rpm should be a safe guess...

Best regards, south
Agreed. I'd be shocked it the redline was anything less than 8,250RPM. Also, if Edmund's numbers are right, how can the new M3 have less torque than the 335i? If I recall, the 335i was dynoing with right around 300 lb. tq. And the M3 has 295? I'm expecting numbers from BMW to be about: 414HP; 329 lb tq.
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      03-10-2007, 02:56 PM   #15
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Over 300 is still conservative!

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Originally Posted by lakerfan007 View Post
Is it just me or is the sub 300 lb-ft of torque also a very conservative number?
I'd make a huge wager we get over 300 ft lb.

E60 M5 is at 384, multiply by 4/5 = 307. So again if no improvements to the engine since that was designed (YEARS AGO) we should still see 307 or so. I suspect we will get DGI as well which will help torque. Shame on BMW if we don't get it, RS4 has had it for some time as well as other much less sporty cars. I'd bet DGI would surely push things over 310! Any other minor tweaks to the engine (intake, software, VANOS, etc) should get us to 315-320.

My conclusion - definitely don't worry about sub 300!
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      03-10-2007, 03:33 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
I'd make a huge wager we get over 300 ft lb.

E60 M5 is at 384, multiply by 4/5 = 307. So again if no improvements to the engine since that was designed (YEARS AGO) we should still see 307 or so. I suspect we will get DGI as well which will help torque. Shame on BMW if we don't get it, RS4 has had it for some time as well as other much less sporty cars. I'd bet DGI would surely push things over 310! Any other minor tweaks to the engine (intake, software, VANOS, etc) should get us to 315-320.

My conclusion - definitely don't worry about sub 300!
You can't compare the FSI found on the RS4 with the HPI BMW is using on 335i. It's a completely different technique. It wouldn't be much of a problem to incorparate a FSI like system, but this doe not have to many advantages. BMW's HPI is the second generation of DI, which is the first DI system which brings you a significant better fuel consumption along with higher output. But HPI doesn't like high revs to much. It was difficult enough for BMW to let it work with the 7000 rpm of 335i. So it's very very unlikely that there will be a DI on the M3 V8. Hope that's not a dealbreaker for you.

Best regards, south
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      03-10-2007, 08:18 PM   #17
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Advantages?

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You can't compare the FSI found on the RS4 with the HPI BMW is using on 335i. It's a completely different technique. It wouldn't be much of a problem to incorparate a FSI like system, but this doe not have to many advantages. BMW's HPI is the second generation of DI, which is the first DI system which brings you a significant better fuel consumption along with higher output. But HPI doesn't like high revs to much. It was difficult enough for BMW to let it work with the 7000 rpm of 335i. So it's very very unlikely that there will be a DI on the M3 V8. Hope that's not a dealbreaker for you.

Best regards, south
Come on the Audi system does not have economy and performance advantages? I don't buy that, can you share some proof? I did indeed hear that the 335i system was pushing the limit at 7k rpm so was not suitable for the M3 redline. It is definitely not a deal breaker for me personally, however, with reagrds to DI and dual clutch it is just disappointing tht BVMW is a bit behind the technology curve.
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      03-10-2007, 10:20 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
I'd make a huge wager we get over 300 ft lb.

E60 M5 is at 384, multiply by 4/5 = 307. So again if no improvements to the engine since that was designed (YEARS AGO) we should still see 307 or so. I suspect we will get DGI as well which will help torque. Shame on BMW if we don't get it, RS4 has had it for some time as well as other much less sporty cars. I'd bet DGI would surely push things over 310! Any other minor tweaks to the engine (intake, software, VANOS, etc) should get us to 315-320.

My conclusion - definitely don't worry about sub 300!
Swamp I am counting on you to get that close up (if you went to Geneva)

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      03-11-2007, 01:23 AM   #19
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Close up of what

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Swamp I am counting on you to get that close up (if you went to Geneva)
I'll be there toward the end and will be taking as many 8MP close ups as I can. Any requests? I am definitely going to hold my camera under the car to see the underside. I really want to know if the entire underbody is covered. Well not as much as I want some real information but I am curious about that.
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      03-11-2007, 01:28 PM   #20
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Quote:
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I'll be there toward the end and will be taking as many 8MP close ups as I can. Any requests? I am definitely going to hold my camera under the car to see the underside. I really want to know if the entire underbody is covered. Well not as much as I want some real information but I am curious about that.
okay, I don't want to sound rude but Can you get close ups of:
Steering wheel (make sur eits an M button)
redline
there were 2 other things but i just forgot at the time lol
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      03-11-2007, 02:26 PM   #21
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The redline is going to be above 8000 for sure. If you look at the Geneva pictures, the tach is yellow at 8000. This means that 8000 is close to redline, but not the actual redline. 250-500 rpms above the yellow would be the actual redline. I am guessing around 8500. I don't think it will have less than 420 hp or 300 lb/tq either. Those are the minimum numbers. Ideally we will see around 420-430hp and 300-310 lb/tq.
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      03-11-2007, 10:39 PM   #22
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The redline is going to be above 8000 for sure. If you look at the Geneva pictures, the tach is yellow at 8000. This means that 8000 is close to redline, but not the actual redline. 250-500 rpms above the yellow would be the actual redline. I am guessing around 8500. I don't think it will have less than 420 hp or 300 lb/tq either. Those are the minimum numbers. Ideally we will see around 420-430hp and 300-310 lb/tq.
I'll miss those amber tick lights on the tach gauge, I wish they'll manage to put them back on.

(Can someonebody guess what gear this guy is on ? <grin> lolz <photo>)
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