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      06-29-2010, 09:07 PM   #67
Alexander
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You guys are all POGs and fleet dodgers.

PMI's don't teach shotgun courses AFAIK.
Hell I never have even heard of a shotgun course in the Marines, except an infantry unit letting SNCO's shoot shotguns on the rare occasion, or queer security force ****. We had a couple of shotguns in my unit, and I carried one simply because I was a competitive Skeet/ Trap shooter, and hated having to carry it along with my kit. I barely shot the thing, and since Iraqi houses don't have Western doors and Stanley style door locks they were pretty damn useless, hell we learned real quick to just try opening the door before going in for a soft hit, and if it was a hard hit that's what the 51's are for, either a water charge or a SMAW/ AT4 to a wall. Also shells are too bulky to carry . What 8 shells is equal to a mag of 30? Also the lack of range is a no bueno in the Corps. I would never want to be stuck with just a shotty.

Hickok was firing buckshot and if you notice the spread is very minimal, and buckshot, which most people would use for self defense, does require accuracy.

Back on topic just stick with a short barreled 12 guage, Mossberg, Remington, or a Benelli pump, forgot the name. I have three benelli's btw, but wouldn't use them for home defense, duck guns.
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      06-29-2010, 09:17 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aonarch View Post
You guys are all POGs and fleet dodgers.

PMI's don't teach shotgun courses AFAIK.
Hell I never have even heard of a shotgun course in the Marines, except an infantry unit letting SNCO's shoot shotguns on the rare occasion, or queer security force ****. We had a couple of shotguns in my unit, and I carried one simply because I was a competitive Skeet/ Trap shooter, and hated having to carry it along with my kit. I barely shot the thing, and since Iraqi houses don't have Western doors and Stanley style door locks they were pretty damn useless, hell we learned real quick to just try opening the door before going in for a soft hit, and if it was a hard hit that's what the 51's are for, either a water charge or a SMAW/ AT4 to a wall. Also shells are too bulky to carry . What 8 shells is equal to a mag of 30? Also the lack of range is a no bueno in the Corps. I would never want to be stuck with just a shotty.
.
We had an airfield security team that had shotguns in their TE. Twice a year we took everything we had to the range for fam fire, and the unit's PMIs conducted it. The shotguns were part of it every time.
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      06-29-2010, 09:32 PM   #69
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Silly jarheads....

Don't you know shurikens are the best weapons for home defense? Duh.
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      06-29-2010, 09:37 PM   #70
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just get a remington 1187 if you dont want a pump,
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      06-29-2010, 09:37 PM   #71
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just get a pistol
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      06-29-2010, 09:43 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ideliver View Post
Remington 760 or Mossberg 500....you can get a tactical model with a pistol grip stock and shortener barrel...

Attachment 311051
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Originally Posted by 335e92tx View Post
Nothing more reasonable priced than a 500pump
+1. i have 2 remington shotguns. i load them both up the same way. the sit next to my bed...next to each post by the heard boards. Only load 3 shots. OO-OO-Slug. Spray spray finish them. If theyre in your home. Make sure they dont make it out. Also if you shoot them and theyre not dead. Make sure you finish them off and kill them. PER HPD. Cuz if you dont they'll come back and sue your ass for shooting them in your own home. Sounds BS. but its true.
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      06-30-2010, 04:40 AM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremyc74 View Post
Did I really need to remind you what was said?
No comment.

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Originally Posted by jeremyc74 View Post
It was pretty obvious what the person you were contradicting there was talking about. If you point a shotgun down a hallway at night, and someone is standing in it, you WILL NOT miss.

That's just not true. The videos I posted demonstrate quite sufficiently why what you said is not true, as you could easily miss entirely. More importantly, you want to not just hit the intruder, but stop them in their tracks, that requires penetration. Here are a few articles on the subject.


http://www.alpharubicon.com/leo/shotgunpace.htm

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Myth #1: shotguns are an area weapon. Many people seem to have the idea that shotguns fire a cloud of pellets, making precise aiming of a shotgun unnecessary. These people also tend to believe that a shotgun can be fired effectively from the hip, as seen in movies. In reality, while one of the benefits of a shotgun is the ability to fire multiple projectiles in a spread pattern, shotgun shells produce fairly tight groups. Load selection, choke type (discussed below) and barrel length are all variables in this equation. But for illustration, real-world tests of popular buckshot loads consistently produce patterns averaging 10" in diameter at 15 yards. These patterns are even smaller in diameter at the closer ranges found in most defensive scenarios.

This applies to trap shooting, but is still relevant.


http://www.tipsforshooting.com/trap/...ting_myths.php

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Just watch a pro shoot and tell me s/he is pointing the gun at the targets when shooting handicap targets... and I'll show you a pro that is no longer going to stay a pro. You bet these pro shooters aim their guns! After 25-years of shooting 40,000 targets a year it may even appear to be pointing to them at times, but the truth is they are using those sight beads/muzzle to put them on the target. It's the only way to get that sure-fire hit each and every time.

http://brillianter.com/2008/11/5-def...shotgun-myths/

Quote:

5 Defensive Shotgun Myths
[...]
2. Shotguns don’t need to be aimed.

Depending upon the distance and the load the shot will strike in a small cluster a few inches across. Shortening the barrel or increasing the distance will cause the pattern to spread out more, but will also reduce the penetration of each pellet. Realistically you need to get as many pellets into the vitals as possible so wider spreads of shot are less likely to produce stops in human targets.

http://www.handgunsmag.com/tactics_t...choice_200809/

Quote:
Common wisdom has it that a shotgun is the best gun to use for home defense. This advice is often supplemented with such encouraging comments as, “You don’t need to aim, just point it in the general direction.” Usually added to this, with a knowing look, is another supposed statement of fact that, “Just the sound of racking a shell into it is enough to get him running.”

Let’s take a look at these shotgun myths. Shot loads do spread but as a general rule do so at the rate of one inch per yard after the first three yards. This means that at 12 feet you have two inches of shot with which to hit anything—not quite a shower of doom in the average apartment or domicile. The “no need to aim” comment simply allows rationalization for not practicing, which gives mental comfort while believing you might never have to shoot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremyc74 View Post
And where did you even come up with buckshot as the ammunition? He said "no slugs" and made no mention of buckshot.

Well fine then, birdshot. I said buckshot because that is what's usually recommended for self defense. If you live in a condo that has thin walls and want need to use birdshot to prevent yourself from accidentally killing your neighbor, his dog, or ruining his fine art, then fine, I'd rather trust my own life to buckshot.

Last edited by radix; 06-30-2010 at 06:02 AM.
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      06-30-2010, 06:01 AM   #74
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I knew I'd seen this discussion on this site before. It turns out I knew exactly who to search for. This has been done before, so forgive me scollins for dragging your name back into the mix:

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showpo...5&postcount=34

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showpo...5&postcount=36

Last edited by radix; 06-30-2010 at 06:10 AM.
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      06-30-2010, 06:23 AM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aonarch View Post

Hickok was firing buckshot and if you notice the spread is very minimal, and buckshot, which most people would use for self defense, does require accuracy.
Actually he was shooting birdshot in the first video, and buckshot in the second. I agree that for self defense you'd want to go with buck though.
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      06-30-2010, 06:25 AM   #76
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Where do you hillbillies live that you need a shotgun for home protection???
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      06-30-2010, 12:33 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by radix View Post
I knew I'd seen this discussion on this site before. It turns out I knew exactly who to search for. This has been done before, so forgive me scollins for dragging your name back into the mix:

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showpo...5&postcount=34

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showpo...5&postcount=36
No worries, I like talking about guns, tactics and self defense. Probably why I'm also a purveyor of firearms. Actually, I can change my title to "International Arms Dealer"! I just finished the importation of a 1911 from Germany. What a pain in the ass that was.....

Here is me shooting my Benelli shotgun in a match. Notice in the 2nd set of shotgun targets, I miss TWICE! If you keep watching, you can see me miss some more targets too. Now the targets are smaller than a person, but figure actually not much smaller than the "center of mass" of a person.



So yeah, you still have to aim, especially if you don't want to miss (particularly bad in a house, where a buckshot round is still going to penetrate at least 2 interior walls....)


The absolute best advice though is, Take a training class or 3!!
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      06-30-2010, 01:52 PM   #78
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So in summary a shotgun is good defence against a burglar who chooses to enter your home whilst you are in. A burglar who knows you may be armed so is also armed.

In that scenario I understand the rationale in.having a shotgun. If I lived in America I may even get one. But with respect I feel much safer here armed with nothing deadlier than a carving knife. In the UK burglary rates have plummeted. Burglars look for the soft target - the empty home, preferably one with an unlocked door. They don't go around tooled up because they don't plan on coming face to face with anyone, and certainly don't expect that anyone to be armed.

So, chances of coming face to face with an intruder? Low. Chances of coming face to face with an armed intruder? Negligable. That's home security, not hoping your weapon is better than the intruder's weapon. If you're using this "danger" as an excuse to get a gun cos uou want one, fine. If you are genuinely worried about facing armed intruders, isn't that a sign crime is completely out of control?
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