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06-07-2010, 09:47 PM | #969 | |||||
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Roman, if you removed the intake off your supercharger kit it will make more boost as well. I don't run 10-11psi, never have on the street, that was in ONE Test pull, the car has seen 7.5 - 9.5psi, and the numbers are real, every Stage 2+ kit should make the power I did, anywhere in the world, no adapting necessary, I can assure you so far they all have, or more. As far as results, I would hope 594 WHP would net your setup good results as well, but it appears when the car adapts those #'s become irrelevant? I haven't compared them, and if I have, so what? I have only made attempts to refute others who have, and those who I feel have posted inaccurate info. I know the differences between them, it appears you don't.
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16 F82 M4 DCT - ZCP - JB4 - 556WHP / 570WTQ
08 E92 M3 DCT - Bolt Ons - 60-130MPH 10.71s - 11.88 @ 118MPH - 377WHP ESS VT2-625 SC 60-130MPH 6.80s - 11.30 @ 129.3 MPH 586WHP / 379WTQ ESS VT3-750 - 60-130MPH 6.14s - 10.81 @ 135.13 MPH 690WHP/463WTQ Shift-S3ctor E92 M3 - 1/2 Mile Trap Speed WR - 174.13 MPH |
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06-07-2010, 09:48 PM | #970 | |
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16 F82 M4 DCT - ZCP - JB4 - 556WHP / 570WTQ
08 E92 M3 DCT - Bolt Ons - 60-130MPH 10.71s - 11.88 @ 118MPH - 377WHP ESS VT2-625 SC 60-130MPH 6.80s - 11.30 @ 129.3 MPH 586WHP / 379WTQ ESS VT3-750 - 60-130MPH 6.14s - 10.81 @ 135.13 MPH 690WHP/463WTQ Shift-S3ctor E92 M3 - 1/2 Mile Trap Speed WR - 174.13 MPH |
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06-07-2010, 09:58 PM | #971 |
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Drew you are correct about the filter changing boost without changing the pulley. My first upgrade to my old GT500 was an intake and made 1.3psi more with ZERO changes to the pulley. I'm sure it would have made additional boost if we had removed the filter and performed another run.
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2009 E92 M3/DCT/Alpine White/Fox Red/Carbon Leather OE Tuned 402 whp & 303 wtq/Gintani X-pipe/MXP Axle Back/Rogue Pulley/AFE Stage 2/Cosmetics By IND & EAS HUGE THANKS: Gintani, OE Tuning, and EAS |
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06-07-2010, 11:52 PM | #973 | |
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Any time that you decrease the resctriction of a FI engine (on the intake side in this case) you will see an increase in boost; some are more dramatic than others. You seem to pride yourself in trying to prove others wrong, so why not pull the filter off of yours and see what happens?? I'm willing to bet you will see similar results, as ESS and Gintani set-ups seem to perform similarly on the dyno (depsite what fanboys say for either party).
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06-08-2010, 12:12 AM | #974 |
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06-08-2010, 12:56 AM | #976 | |
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Come on PG you know that you can't compare one dyno to another. The only way to get a clear and concise result is by dyno testing both cars on the same day, same dyno, SAME fuel, reset adaptations, etc.
Also, I believe this has been explained to you, but I'll do it again. Drew's car is tuned for 91 octane, which means that it wasn't tuned with the meth injection on. I've tuned a number of Evo's and STI's the same way. We tune for 91 octane, and then activate the meth injection to simply decrease combustion chamber temps. This method is really popular among guys that want to push smaller turbos hard up top, as temps get very high when that happens. Quote:
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2009 E92 M3/DCT/Alpine White/Fox Red/Carbon Leather OE Tuned 402 whp & 303 wtq/Gintani X-pipe/MXP Axle Back/Rogue Pulley/AFE Stage 2/Cosmetics By IND & EAS HUGE THANKS: Gintani, OE Tuning, and EAS |
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06-08-2010, 01:12 AM | #977 | |
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Who cares if one car was on 30psi and one was on 5psi. The bottom line is both cars made similar power numbers (supposedly), yet one failed to perform. Pea, I really wish you would go to an INDEPENDENT dyno rather than back to ESS |
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06-08-2010, 01:14 AM | #978 |
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I love how Roman tries to throw a twist and make it seem (again) that the Gintani kit is dangerous because removing the intake filter results in an increase in boost. If you remove a filter on a supercharged setup, you will see a rise in boost, that's just how it works. Sometimes its small, sometimes its large. If you don't see a difference, well then your filter isn't really doing it's job 'filtering' things out.
A little off topic, but I hope my car doesn't adapt too much this week and cost me too much power as I am headed to the track Last edited by MspiredM3; 06-08-2010 at 01:20 AM.. |
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06-08-2010, 01:15 AM | #979 | |
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1. I made 579whp at "9psi", but I never posted the dyno 2. I made 569whp at "9psi" on 91 ONLY 3. The car did this on two different dyno's a few days apart 4. My dyno #'s more than match how the car performs in the real world and the Vbox, Per in his own words says his DO NOT 5. Per's car made more power than you on pump, with a TAD more boost, why? 6. You are correct, WM is certainly an octane booster, but it depends on how it's applied 7. The WM on my car never reaches the CC, it does not affect the AFR at all, but feel free to call it what you want, I can understand your reasoning 8. Octane will only change the dyno result if- the car is fully adapted OR if it's tuned for it on the spot and adjustments are made, you and I both know it does nothing simply by pouring race fuel in at the dyno 9. DCT vs. 6MT 10. I don't think Elden was specifically talking about my car and Per's, he was speaking in general about the FI dyno's and if you look in the database, he's right, in general they make similar #'s
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16 F82 M4 DCT - ZCP - JB4 - 556WHP / 570WTQ
08 E92 M3 DCT - Bolt Ons - 60-130MPH 10.71s - 11.88 @ 118MPH - 377WHP ESS VT2-625 SC 60-130MPH 6.80s - 11.30 @ 129.3 MPH 586WHP / 379WTQ ESS VT3-750 - 60-130MPH 6.14s - 10.81 @ 135.13 MPH 690WHP/463WTQ Shift-S3ctor E92 M3 - 1/2 Mile Trap Speed WR - 174.13 MPH |
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06-08-2010, 01:17 AM | #980 |
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You're not going to get into a discussion? Then why did you continue to discuss it?
I’m sorry when did I open a discussion on different cars in different countries and how the performance between them proved anything ? I made a comparison of three cars that ran each other on the same day in the same location. The 335 in this video runs a 60-130 in 9 sec without meth. This is the same as some supercharged E9X M3's so I would say it's a pretty fast car. It has bolt on's Roman, there's only so much power you can make. Really ? so exactly what are the limits of the E60 M5 in NA form with bolt ons and software ? Actually there's been a few comparisons, nowhere did I make a direct comparison here with my setup, just added to the current conversation. But to clarify I never ran race fuel on my car NA because it didn't do anything, but yes now with FI I run race fuel at times when I do pulls, and always run WM because it's the smart thing to do. Like I said before with close to 10 psi and meth you should be making the power and performance you are and you should definitely be running meth at all times. Hyperbole much? I am not running a lot more boost than this particular car, only 1.5psi, but it appears that I am actually making the power that I claim as the car is running with cars making more and the Vbox times prove it, Your current dynos show max boost at 9.8-9.9 psi. This customers car runs max boost at 7.5 psi how is that a 1.5 psi difference? That is a 2.3 psi difference and you run meth. also did you not tell me that Larry's car is running 8.5psi, at least it was at Mfest? What did he dyno? Larry ran 8 psi at Mfest on a 50/50 mix of race and 91 for fun. He never ran a 60-130 or dyno with that setup. Larry's car on 91 octane and 5.5 psi made slightly over 500 whp with catless exhaust. He also ran a low 8 sec 60-130 with this setup. I would say his Vbox data confirms his car is making rated power. You may have a thousand kits out there, that's not relevant to this discussion, the fact is we've only seen performance data/results from a few. Actually it has a lot to do with the discussion. We have videos and dynos from all over the world. If you like I can post them up for you to view. These independent videos and dyno's have shown that our kits always make rated power and perform extremely well in the real world. This is something that you seem to deny or are attempting to refute with your continued comparisons and comments. Different conditions? I would agree that would affect Vbox times, 1/4 mile times, but not much if the conditions are similar. Regardless when you are running other cars head to head it's irrelevant, both cars in the comparo will be subject to the same conditions, good or bad. I am not the only car running this specific setup, there are 4 others, 3 of which made more power than me at the same boost level, they also have performance data and impressive traps, Vbox times etc. Then have the customers who have these 4 cars post up all of their data. As of now there is only one car that has made your numbers and it's your car. I made 569 on 91 octane Roman, 0 knock as well. and in another run 579whp at "9psi." They are true/independent dyno #'s and translate to real world runs and Vbox data. It is not a custom intake, it is production, it is currently on all the Gintani cars, except one, and as I explained in my dyno post, the initial intake only influenced dyno runs, performance wise it made little difference, and peak boost was unchanged. I prefer Vbox and comparo runs for my "scientific" testing. Both intakes performed in that regard. You said you removed the filter off your kit and the car made 10-11 psi and 600 whp and then went into a limp mode. I would say this qualifies as making a performance difference. This is not complicated to figure out. If you made 10-11 psi and 600 whp without a filter on your intake you were running a 10-11 psi pulley and your filter was restricting the boost and power. Going out on the road and running a 60-130 to test this is not science it’s a nice way of saying there was a problem but it did not matter in the performance of the car. If this was the case and it did not effect performance on the road why did you need to re-design it? Boost is mechanical; it is determined by the size of the pulley it will only go down if you have a boost leak or restriction of air coming into the blower. You called this design "new intake" this would usually be understood as you changed it from its original design. So far the only change I have seen is you cut the carbon fiber cover off that used to sit over the top of the filter. What exactly did you change to gain the power you did ? Roman, if you removed the intake off your supercharger kit it will make more boost as well. Drew you are wrong again, you need to open your mind to more than what is under your hood. We have run our cars without the filter during R&D to ensure the filter we were running did not restrict air flow and the car makes the same power with the same boost. We tested 4 different filters before we found the right size to use in our kit. We do not have our customers testing our intake design to determine what works properly. I don't run 10-11psi, never have on the street, that was in ONE Test pull, the car has seen 7.5 - 9.5psi, and the numbers are real, I never said you run 10-11 psi on the streets I said you had a 10-11 psi pulley on your car and you had no clue as the intake was restricting boost back to 9.5 psi. I have no doubt your dyno numbers are real, with 9.5-10 psi of boost and meth they should be. every Stage 2+ kit should make the power I did, anywhere in the world, no adapting necessary, I can assure you so far they all have, or more. Should make and do make are two very different things. The only way you would know if other cars would make the same power anywhere in the world would be to actually have kits in other parts of the world. The only way you could assure me or anyone else is to actually have all the independent data from these cars posted up by the customers, so please do. As far as results, I would hope 594 WHP would net your setup good results as well, but it appears when the car adapts those #'s become irrelevant? If you understood how the MSS60 works you would know it's adaptation based and it self corrects based on conditions, this includes intake air temps and fuel quality. When the car is first flashed with a new software file or adaptations have been reset the car will default to a slightly lower than target timing map. Over time if fuel and air temp allow it will slowly advance it's timing until it reaches target. If conditions do not allow the opposite occurs. This adaptation process can take some time and power output can change for the better or worse. Because we have not re-tested this car we do not know if it is making the same power, more or less. The only exception is if the tuner programmed a really high timing target in an attempt to force the car to run high timing under any conditions. In this case the car will almost always pull timing as it adapts making less power. I would expect someone with your knowledge of these cars to understand this process and to also understand that power output is directly related to timing. I haven't compared them, and if I have, so what? I have only made attempts to refute others who have, and those who I feel have posted inaccurate info. Where in this thread did anyone comment on the performance info of your car VS a M5 or a 335 that forced you to chime in and defend how your car did against these two cars ? you jumped into this thread in an attempt to compare the performance of your car to one of our customers. I know the differences between them, it appears you don't. I am well aware of the difference many of them are pointed out in this thread by you. |
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06-08-2010, 01:19 AM | #981 | |
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06-08-2010, 01:38 AM | #982 |
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So, Roman, it should be noted that when looking at the dyno's that you post, that one should deduct 40-60rwhp? I mean who cares what a car does on one dyno run, people care what the car will really be putting out on the street after it 'adapts'. Why even publish these too good to be true dynos and give future potential customers a false hope of the power they think they are going to get with your kits?
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06-08-2010, 02:07 AM | #983 | |
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Only ESS 60-130 numbers I have seen are: 8.31 - Biglare/ E90 M3 DCT ESS VT-600 SC 8.84 - RomanESS / E92 M3 VT-575 /DCT |
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06-08-2010, 02:09 AM | #984 | |
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To answer your question we post a lot of the dyno's and the videos our customers send to us and the numbers we make on our dyno even during R&D. Some cars perform better than others that's just how it goes. If you would take the time to visit our website http://www.esstuning.com/categories/...252dSeries/M3/ we tell customers exactly what they should expect from all of our kits and the dyno's we post there are a good example of what we have seen on customers and our cars. Customers like to see dynos mspired. One of the most common questions I get when customers contact me is what is the rated power of our kits and what do they dyno to the wheels. I always quote the rated power that we list on our site. They don't call and ask what our 60-130 times are or what our standing mile is, so to answer your question I would say a lot of people care what our kits dyno at. What customers decide to do with that added power is up to them. In the case of the VT2-625 customers should expect to dyno 50% more power than stock. In the case of per's car anything more than 515 whp for him is above rated power and is a bonus. |
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06-08-2010, 02:12 AM | #985 | |
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But can you honestly say that Pea's VT625 would match Drew's 60-130 of 7.37? Real world numbers shows Drew's car is using that extra boost and meth very well. 7.37 - DLSJ5 / E92 M3 Gintani Stage 2 SC / DCT / 91 octane and meth / 3 shifts Last edited by M3_WC; 06-08-2010 at 02:29 AM.. |
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06-08-2010, 02:44 AM | #986 | |
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[u2b]<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/wF1w3DEAozY&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/wF1w3DEAozY&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>[/u2b] [u2b]<object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/rFHaabltcT8&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/rFHaabltcT8&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="385"></embed></object>[/u2b] [u2b]<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/L1XdEe9Zzig&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/L1XdEe9Zzig&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>[/u2b] [u2b]<object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/-BtG4pDiU2w&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/-BtG4pDiU2w&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="385"></embed></object>[/u2b] [u2b]<object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/OSmD6pESLdc&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/OSmD6pESLdc&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="385"></embed></object>[/u2b] |
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06-08-2010, 02:52 AM | #987 | ||
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Please? Once again, Drew's time shows his car is using the extra boost and meth very well. Last edited by M3_WC; 06-08-2010 at 03:00 AM.. |
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06-08-2010, 02:54 AM | #988 | ||||||||||||||
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16 F82 M4 DCT - ZCP - JB4 - 556WHP / 570WTQ
08 E92 M3 DCT - Bolt Ons - 60-130MPH 10.71s - 11.88 @ 118MPH - 377WHP ESS VT2-625 SC 60-130MPH 6.80s - 11.30 @ 129.3 MPH 586WHP / 379WTQ ESS VT3-750 - 60-130MPH 6.14s - 10.81 @ 135.13 MPH 690WHP/463WTQ Shift-S3ctor E92 M3 - 1/2 Mile Trap Speed WR - 174.13 MPH |
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06-08-2010, 02:55 AM | #989 | |
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"The M3 is my new car, and it has the ESS VT-625 kit , the dyno that shows 595 whp was not correct , i will do another dyno this week and i belive i will get 540-550 whp. But as you see it doesn´t have much torque and when i start at 50km/h i am totally wrong in the powerband 1 st gear to short and 2d gear to long. And i have 3000 km on the car , still in running in period" |
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06-08-2010, 03:29 AM | #990 | |
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It's very simple. I can claim my kit will yield you 100rwhp, but when I keep posting UNREALISTIC dynos, over and over again, I will soon set an expectation that my kit is underrated and that you should expect much more power that I "claim". My question still stands... WHY WOULD YOU POST A DYNO THAT CAN BE ACHIEVED ONLY ONE TIME, AND ONLY ON THE DYNO WITHOUT SPECIFYING SUCH? |
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