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      05-20-2010, 07:58 PM   #1
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M3 Dyno Failed, Ideas?

2008 E90 M3 6spd MT
Mods: AA rear Section RPI Catless straight pipe/xpipe
BMC Air filter and air scoops
AA pulley
tuning from RPI.

Max Horsepower made today was at 350.
Whats wrong with the car? looks like i only gained 15 horsepower over-stock. Anyone chime in? Very very disappointed in my Dyno run on a DYNOJET
350 whp was made at 100 Degress. at 98 degress it ran at 334. Something about these numbers arent right. Anyone chime in?

Last edited by MRE90M3; 05-20-2010 at 09:00 PM. Reason: posted Dyno Sheet
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      05-20-2010, 08:24 PM   #2
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Looks like your tune is not working. You should be making more power. Nothing can really go wrong with the bolt ons. The tune is another story.
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      05-20-2010, 08:32 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ca$hOnly View Post
Looks like your tune is not working. You should be making more power. Nothing can really go wrong with the bolt ons. The tune is another story.
+1
i agree... it must be the tune. bolt on mods are pretty straight forward.
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      05-20-2010, 08:36 PM   #4
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Or as we've seen in a lot of recent posts - possible dyno operator error
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      05-20-2010, 10:05 PM   #5
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ive updated it with my list. tuning or operator i have no idea if he was the right man for it. im in el paso tx. im told thatt he altitude, temperature makes a big difference. but im looking at it.. the higher temp makes more power
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      05-20-2010, 10:38 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MRE90M3 View Post
ive updated it with my list. tuning or operator i have no idea if he was the right man for it. im in el paso tx. im told thatt he altitude, temperature makes a big difference. but im looking at it.. the higher temp makes more power
2 degrees temperature will not make make much if any of a difference. If the dyno operator is knowledgeable, you can safely assume that your tune is not working.
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      05-20-2010, 11:31 PM   #7
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looks like your running a bit leaner towards the higher rpm...
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      05-21-2010, 02:10 AM   #8
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Where's the stock dyno? (hopefully on the very same dyno). Nothing much can be reasonably said without that.
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      05-21-2010, 02:58 AM   #9
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The way you assume you are making 15hp over stock is not accurate. Technical answers should be answered by, well, people with technical knowledge. Assuming that its the tune is not an accurate assumption. I can assure you that it is NOT the tune. Different dynos, different conditions, dyno operator, etc can effect the numbers. Did the dynojet have a load option? Tire pressure? Strap down tension? Fan? How do you know the mods you have all work well together? Was your mufflers designed to go with straight pipe? What type of gas? Did you get a bad tank of gas? These are all things than can effect your run and this is why we do extensive dyno testing to ensure that these errors are limited. We have countless amount of runs from our customers beating on cars that dynoed much higher. Its just a number man. Best way to see what your car is doing is test each mod alone. Not sure if your exhaust set is right? Try dynoing again with stock mufflers? Try with different gas? Try with different dyno operator? Remember, even the SAME model dyno operated by two shops or two dyno operators can give you completely different results.
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      05-21-2010, 02:58 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NatAsp-M3 View Post
Where's the stock dyno? (hopefully on the very same dyno). Nothing much can be reasonably said without that.
+1. Who knows, his car might have made 300whp stock.
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      05-21-2010, 03:34 AM   #11
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i want to start by saying thank you everyone for giving me your two cents.

a couple of things has happened to the car. my traction control is off, dynamic driving control is off, dynamic breaking is off. due to a couple of "Bad speed Sensors" claimed my dealer. i have a feeling maybe the car was flashed back to normal? im not here to blame anyone, but just to grab info and out put from everyone if possible, so please dont feel like im calling anyone out on this.

RPI is reputable no doubt, i have no problem with the products.
RPIpower has mentioned many great points i would like to look into. i did call RPI at around 5 pacific time but no one answered so couldnt ask anyone so first things first i posted right here on the forums.

I have always assumed the E9x m3s to carry about 320+ no lower (havnt seen any factory dyno this low). Maybe there has been dyno's lower than 320 i just missed it on my way =D. i did look through Pencil geeks dyno list, i also tried posting my sheet on there too didnt really work out..

I am going back to the same dynojet with 100/91 octane at 1:3 ratio. should probably be right around 94 or so. But if anyone else think theres pobably nothing wrong and the car is just in a bad place to dyno, or the shop that dynoed the vehicle wasnt fit for the job, i dont doubt that at all. i will keep everyone posted, and i appreciate everyones input!! makes me feel more at ease lol.
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      05-21-2010, 08:58 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RPIpower View Post
The way you assume you are making 15hp over stock is not accurate. Technical answers should be answered by, well, people with technical knowledge. Assuming that its the tune is not an accurate assumption. I can assure you that it is NOT the tune. Different dynos, different conditions, dyno operator, etc can effect the numbers. Did the dynojet have a load option? Tire pressure? Strap down tension? Fan? How do you know the mods you have all work well together? Was your mufflers designed to go with straight pipe? What type of gas? Did you get a bad tank of gas? These are all things than can effect your run and this is why we do extensive dyno testing to ensure that these errors are limited. We have countless amount of runs from our customers beating on cars that dynoed much higher. Its just a number man. Best way to see what your car is doing is test each mod alone. Not sure if your exhaust set is right? Try dynoing again with stock mufflers? Try with different gas? Try with different dyno operator? Remember, even the SAME model dyno operated by two shops or two dyno operators can give you completely different results.
Totally spot on.

Looking at the graphs it looks like the ECU is backing off at high rpm.

My initial thoughts would be poor fuel quality or highly inadequate cooling.

With those modifications I have no doubt your making around 370RWHP or 450-465 Fly.
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      05-21-2010, 12:07 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PencilGeek View Post
If your car went back to the dealer -- especially very recently -- there is a very high probability that they reflashed it to stock. I'm not sure all dealers are doing it -- but I've been told that they're supposed to reflash all cars that come through. For every car that comes into the dealer -- they are installing new ECU software that prevents ECU tuning. So if your car went back to the dealer any time during the last 3-4 weeks, there's a very good chance it got flashed back to stock.

Also...what happened when you tried to enter into the DynoDB? I thought I made it easier to enter data. Once entered, it doesn't show immediately because I have to review it and approve it. But I don't see anything in the queue, so I'm not sure what happened.

Finally, for a complete list of all stock cars in the DynoDB, see the link below:
http://bmw.pencilgeek.org/DynoDB.html?unknownOpts=38
sadly im in El Paso texas, wont be going back to california til the following week.. thank you PG for the reference i think you will be hearing a lot from me soon =D
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      05-21-2010, 12:08 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sal@Evolve View Post
Totally spot on.

Looking at the graphs it looks like the ECU is backing off at high rpm.

My initial thoughts would be poor fuel quality or highly inadequate cooling.

With those modifications I have no doubt your making around 370RWHP or 450-465 Fly.
i was expecting to be around that as well but just disappointing numbers..
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      05-21-2010, 12:15 PM   #15
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you can lose power with a bad tune. not pointing any fingers but i've seen it happen with other tuning companies. they may be great but every now and then they make a small mistake that throws everything off.
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      05-21-2010, 12:16 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PencilGeek View Post
If your car went back to the dealer -- especially very recently -- there is a very high probability that they reflashed it to stock. I'm not sure all dealers are doing it -- but I've been told that they're supposed to reflash all cars that come through. For every car that comes into the dealer -- they are installing new ECU software that prevents ECU tuning. So if your car went back to the dealer any time during the last 3-4 weeks, there's a very good chance it got flashed back to stock.
So dealers are not really flashing the ECU with original software but with new software designed to prevent tunes? Is this right?


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      05-21-2010, 12:46 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RPIpower View Post
The way you assume you are making 15hp over stock is not accurate. Technical answers should be answered by, well, people with technical knowledge. Assuming that its the tune is not an accurate assumption. I can assure you that it is NOT the tune. Different dynos, different conditions, dyno operator, etc can effect the numbers. Did the dynojet have a load option? Tire pressure? Strap down tension? Fan? How do you know the mods you have all work well together? Was your mufflers designed to go with straight pipe? What type of gas? Did you get a bad tank of gas? These are all things than can effect your run and this is why we do extensive dyno testing to ensure that these errors are limited. We have countless amount of runs from our customers beating on cars that dynoed much higher. Its just a number man. Best way to see what your car is doing is test each mod alone. Not sure if your exhaust set is right? Try dynoing again with stock mufflers? Try with different gas? Try with different dyno operator? Remember, even the SAME model dyno operated by two shops or two dyno operators can give you completely different results.
All I will say is, to ensure this conversation stays honest, the only thing one can be assured of is NO ONE really knows what has happened at this point because of there being so many factors involved. To assume that the tune is fine is a grave error, just as assuming the tune is not fine is a grave error.

At the end of the day, everyone must understand that this car has been exposed to the potential for a lot of human error (error of the tuning company and error of the dyno operator).

So lets all not jump to any conclusions until everything is sorted out, which
means
1) finding another dyno, with a new operator
2) making sure the stock dyno was operated properly
3) making sure the tune is operating correctly

That was just a quick list of things to be done, I'm sure those such as PG can chime in with a lot more thoughts on where there may be more holes to be filled in (as he has already begun to do (see above).

Cheers,
e46e92
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      05-21-2010, 01:06 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PencilGeek View Post
It's a distinction without a difference. Any OEM BMW factory software -- whether it contains tune prevention or not -- is ORIGINAL software by BMW. So yes, they are flashing the ECU with new software -- that overwrites the old software and erases ECU tunes -- with new BMW software that prevents tuning modifications. However, there are already two tuners who have the ability to tune around the new BMW tune prevention techniques.



My #1 suspicion is that it's been flashed back to stock by BMW with the new ECU software containing tune prevention.
Ok. By "original" I meant the software the car came with. And by "new" I meant "is different than what the car came with but still by BMW". So the "new" software is meant to prevent aftermarket tunes. Where do get such information?


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      05-21-2010, 01:14 PM   #19
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Ideally, you should dyno both stock and after mods on the same machine, with the same operator, with hopefully the same conditions and not too much time between the dyno runs so it's calibration doesn't drift. But the ideal just won't happen. That's why I also don't discount stats like 0 - 60, 1/4 mile runs and such. And even the good ole butt dyno. All are subject to error. And I feel all have worth.

With that said then to the OP: does it feel any different?


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      05-21-2010, 01:18 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PencilGeek View Post
As far as I know, BMW never flashes -- and BMW techs don't even have the capability to flash -- cars back to the original factory software that came with the car. Whenever a car needs programming for any module (even for angle-eye updates), it gets all of the updates -- regardless of why the car is in for service or not. If a car does not need programming, then nothing is programmed. There are many -- probably at least 10 different ECU updates for the E9x thus far. The latest one contains a write-only operating system. It can be written, but it cannot be read. Tuners need to read the tune in order to modify it. If the software cannot be read, then it cannot be modified. At least -- that's what BMW is hoping for. But a few tuners use much more sophisticated tools when performing ECU tuning. They are still capable of modifying these newer "locked" ECU's.
Ok. So, the dealer just has the latest program, whether that is the "original" or not. They don't check what is there, just overwrite whatever it is with whatever they have.

My last sentence was meant to say: where do you get such information. I'm guessing you guys out there on the west coast have access to more knowledgeable people about these things.


Thanks.
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      05-21-2010, 04:23 PM   #21
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also who are these companies that can circumvent the new software. hints? riddles? answer?
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      05-22-2010, 02:57 PM   #22
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what to dooo what to do... the dyno guy here in el paso tx, didn't have time to do my run yesterday and Am busy tuning other cars that are scheduled.. i guess i will take the car back to California to get it checked.. hopefully ill get answers then...
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