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View Poll Results: Do you believe in God?
Yes 37 41.57%
No 52 58.43%
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      05-14-2010, 03:48 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChineseGuy View Post
According to Big Bang it started with a dot.

There's no before that. It started with that. Anything before that we consider it undefined.
What about M-theory and the universe membranes. or the Bubble theory. The Universe is not called the Universe anymore by the Physicists now a days its called a brane.
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      05-14-2010, 03:52 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by ragingclue View Post
It's a means of pushing back against the religious right? Why, then, are ALL religious believers being mocked? This thread isn't just targeting the far right. If you guys want to malign the fundamentalist "bible pounders", no need to deride anyone who believes in "God". That's the same thing as condemning the entire Muslim faith because of the actions of the radicals. Why is it ok to do that to Christians, but not Muslims?

You're getting backlash because you're not policing your own. If the religious organizations are going to turn a blind eye while the extreme believers wage war on anyone who disagrees with them, they're going to be lumped in as supporters, not neutral parties who should be left alone.

Your example about Muslims is perfect. The Christian right has money funnled into it from all sorts of people who aren't nearly as vocal about things, but don't exactly disagree with what's being done.

If you're not opposing their agenda, you're helping them further it. 50 years from now kids are going to look back on the gay marriage issue and view our society much in the same way we view the US when slavery was legal, and the church has played a very large role in keeping things they way they are, whether it fits the Consitution or not.
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      05-14-2010, 03:58 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dito View Post
What about M-theory and the universe membranes. or the Bubble theory. The Universe is not called the Universe anymore by the Physicists now a days its called a brane.
Honestly I've been reading so many articles and watching so much videos on these subjects, but I still don't quite get how they come up with the M-theory.

Recently, I've been watching Stephen Hawking's video about the universe and it is very informative. I suggest alot of religious folks to take a look.
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      05-14-2010, 05:10 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by lauer87 View Post
If there isn't some sort of higher power, then where did all this shit come from to begin with (I'm talking about prior to the big bang)?
1) Why do you think there was a time that was prior to the big bang? Time stops in a singularity. It's like asking what's north of the north pole.

2) If you think something had to create the universe, what do you think created the thing that created the universe? What created that thing? You're just rampantly speculating to no benefit. Apply Occam's razor.
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      05-14-2010, 05:16 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ragingclue View Post
It's a means of pushing back against the religious right? Why, then, are ALL religious believers being mocked? This thread isn't just targeting the far right. If you guys want to malign the fundamentalist "bible pounders", no need to deride anyone who believes in "God". That's the same thing as condemning the entire Muslim faith because of the actions of the radicals. Why is it ok to do that to Christians, but not Muslims?
Hi, Clue. Maybe this'll shed a little light.

[u2b]<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/ulAl4OjwvG4&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/ulAl4OjwvG4&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>[/u2b]

That's a good primer, but I suppose more to the point, moderate religion enables the radicals (particularly in Islam, where the so-called moderates don't seem to mind the radicals).

Last edited by carve; 05-14-2010 at 05:25 PM.
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      05-14-2010, 10:45 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by jeremyc74 View Post
If you're not opposing their agenda, you're helping them further it.
This is why I hate newborns. They support terrorism.
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      05-14-2010, 10:48 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carve View Post
Hi, Clue. Maybe this'll shed a little light.

That's a good primer, but I suppose more to the point, moderate religion enables the radicals (particularly in Islam, where the so-called moderates don't seem to mind the radicals).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_McVeigh

This is a militant atheist/agnostic.

Quote:
"Science is my religion."
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      05-14-2010, 10:50 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChineseGuy View Post
Honestly I've been reading so many articles and watching so much videos on these subjects, but I still don't quite get how they come up with the M-theory.

Recently, I've been watching Stephen Hawking's video about the universe and it is very informative. I suggest alot of religious folks to take a look.
Interestingly, Hawking is agnostic.
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      05-14-2010, 11:41 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by radix View Post
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_McVeigh

This is a militant atheist/agnostic.
Huh? His bombing had nothing to do with his belief in god or lack thereof. Even if it did, it's irrelevant to the question of whether the claim is true.
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      05-14-2010, 11:43 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by radix View Post
Interestingly, Hawking is agnostic.
Not that it matters, but...

Quote:
Hawking takes an agnostic position on matters of religion.[50][51] He has repeatedly used the word "God" (in metaphorical meanings)[52] to illustrate points made in his books and public speeches. His ex-wife, Jane, however, said that he was an atheist during their divorce proceedings.[53][54] Hawking has stated that he is "not religious in the normal sense" and he believes that "the universe is governed by the laws of science. The laws may have been decreed by God, but God does not intervene to break the laws."[50]
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      05-15-2010, 03:34 AM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carve View Post
Huh? His bombing had nothing to do with his belief in god or lack thereof. Even if it did, it's irrelevant to the question of whether the claim is true.
You said that moderate religion enables radicals. The point in bringing up McVeigh is that radicals don't need religion to resort to terrorism. Atheists can continue to pointlessly try to convince theists that there is no god, but even if they're successful it still won't eradicate violence by extremists.
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      05-15-2010, 09:48 AM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by radix View Post
You said that moderate religion enables radicals. The point in bringing up McVeigh is that radicals don't need religion to resort to terrorism. Atheists can continue to pointlessly try to convince theists that there is no god, but even if they're successful it still won't eradicate violence by extremists.
I never said it would- it's just one less thing to get radical over, and religion tends to spawn a LOT of divisiveness and violence- especially with Muslims. Nobody has ever killed someone out of some atheistic dogma because there IS NONE.
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      05-15-2010, 09:56 AM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carve View Post
I never said it would- it's just one less thing to get radical over, and religion tends to spawn a LOT of divisiveness and violence- especially with Muslims. Nobody has ever killed someone out of some atheistic dogma because there IS NONE.
People don't need religion to be violent.

Also, have you ever thought about all of the Christians who do good, in this country and in others, and what society may be like without them, not to mention the other "do-gooders" of other religions around the world? I do believe there is a lot of good that comes from religion if you can stop focusing on only the bad (or even the potential bad).

It's like you would look at your Christian neighbor and say to yourself, "Ugh what a piece of shit he is for believing in God and, therefore, supporting terrorism" while he goes to work every day, raises his family in a wholesome manner, partakes in philanthropic events organized by his church group, and develops a sense of community with those he interacts with on a daily basis.... His children will be more likely to be productive and raised with generosity ingrained into their moral structure because of the religion, etc...

Maybe if he was just another atheist, it would put your mind at ease? Even though his kids learn their social skills from XBox Live and will turn out to be future dredges of society? But it's ok because he doesn't support this cancer that is organized religion?

Like I said, I'm agnostic, but there's a bigger picture than just what the effects of radicals paint here....
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      05-15-2010, 10:09 AM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremyc74 View Post
You're getting backlash because you're not policing your own.
"My own" are those in my own societal realm, Americans, and human beings. Like I said, I'm agnostic.
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      05-15-2010, 10:34 AM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ragingclue View Post
People don't need religion to be violent.

Also, have you ever thought about all of the Christians who do good, in this country and in others, and what society may be like without them, not to mention the other "do-gooders" of other religions around the world? I do believe there is a lot of good that comes from religion if you can stop focusing on only the bad (or even the potential bad).

It's like you would look at your Christian neighbor and say to yourself, "Ugh what a piece of shit he is for believing in God and, therefore, supporting terrorism" while he goes to work every day, raises his family in a wholesome manner, partakes in philanthropic events organized by his church group, and develops a sense of community with those he interacts with on a daily basis.... His children will be more likely to be productive and raised with generosity ingrained into their moral structure because of the religion, etc...

Maybe if he was just another atheist, it would put your mind at ease? Even though his kids learn their social skills from XBox Live and will turn out to be future dredges of society? But it's ok because he doesn't support this cancer that is organized religion?

Like I said, I'm agnostic, but there's a bigger picture than just what the effects of radicals paint here....
That just isn't true. The most secular nations in the world (e.g. Japan, Denmark, Sweden) tend to be the most prosperous and peaceful ones, with low crime rates and high standards of living). The most religious (e.g. middle east, many African nations) tend to be the most violent and improvished. Now, people may be turning to religion as an escape from their bad situation rather than the bad situation be caused by their religion, but either way it is demonstrably not true that religion is needed for a stable society, and it could be quite the contrary.

The world's two biggest philanthropists, Buffet and Gates, are atheists. They know this is the only world we have and want to make it better, and expect nothing in return. Religious charities (and especially missions) often, but not always, withhold the charity until the needy person say, attends mass. They're essentially buying converts on the cheap.

The fear religion often instills in children is terrible and detrimental to their development. See "Jesus Camp" for a particularly extreme example, but things like that to a lesser degree happen everywhere. Saying morality is based on nothing but God's authority, rather than on the outcomes of actions, stunts moral development and teaches might-makes-right. Saying it is virtuous to believe (and base your life on something) for which there is no evidence discourages critical thinking, not to mention talking about it (free speech)- the very thing that separate our modern, prosperous world from the dark ages.

Religion, while it's great for establishing tribe unity and controlling people, fosters fanaticism, bigotry, and subverts science and discovery. Despite that, even if it DID do all the things you suppose, wouldn't it still matter to you if it were true? I may live a happier life believing I'm really Anakin Skywalkers other son, but don't you think truth and evidence matter. You're up against the is/aught fallacy.
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      05-15-2010, 11:28 AM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carve View Post
That just isn't true. The most secular nations in the world (e.g. Japan, Denmark, Sweden) tend to be the most prosperous and peaceful ones, with low crime rates and high standards of living). The most religious (e.g. middle east, many African nations) tend to be the most violent and improvished. Now, people may be turning to religion as an escape from their bad situation rather than the bad situation be caused by their religion, but either way it is demonstrably not true that religion is needed for a stable society, and it could be quite the contrary.
...
Religion, while it's great for establishing tribe unity and controlling people, fosters fanaticism, bigotry, and subverts science and discovery. Despite that, even if it DID do all the things you suppose, wouldn't it still matter to you if it were true? I may live a happier life believing I'm really Anakin Skywalkers other son, but don't you think truth and evidence matter. You're up against the is/aught fallacy.
First emboldened statement is most definitely true.

I see your opinion differs from mine. That's fine. I believe people should be allowed to place their beliefs where they deem necessary. Whether or not that's in God, Allah, Buddah, or Oprah, I just don't think it's my place to say they're wrong.

Why would I have a problem with you believing you're Anakin Skywalker's other son? To whom is that detrimental?

Don't get me wrong; I'm not a big fan of organized religion, and I'm very aware of many of the past and present atrocities which can be attributed to one organized religion or another, but it's not my place, nor yours, to tell people what they should or shouldn't believe. That was my point.
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      05-15-2010, 01:32 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by ragingclue View Post
"My own" are those in my own societal realm, Americans, and human beings. Like I said, I'm agnostic.

Ok, then "they" are getting backlash. Either way, you asked the question, and that's my explaination.
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      05-15-2010, 01:35 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by radix View Post
This is why I hate newborns. They support terrorism.

We both know I'm talking about adults who are making the decisions in the organizations.
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      05-15-2010, 01:53 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremyc74 View Post
You're getting backlash because you're not policing your own. If the religious organizations are going to turn a blind eye while the extreme believers wage war on anyone who disagrees with them, they're going to be lumped in as supporters, not neutral parties who should be left alone.

Your example about Muslims is perfect. The Christian right has money funnled into it from all sorts of people who aren't nearly as vocal about things, but don't exactly disagree with what's being done.

If you're not opposing their agenda, you're helping them further it. 50 years from now kids are going to look back on the gay marriage issue and view our society much in the same way we view the US when slavery was legal, and the church has played a very large role in keeping things they way they are, whether it fits the Consitution or not.
Refusing to deride peaceful practicing theists (and likewise refusing to damn every member of a religion to a stereotype) is not "enabling". It's respecting their right to practice religion as they feel appropriate. I guess we just don't agree on that.

I don't base my dislike of others on their religious beliefs. I base it on whether or not they're douchebags, regardless of religious preference.
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      05-15-2010, 02:45 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by ragingclue View Post
Refusing to deride peaceful practicing theists (and likewise refusing to damn every member of a religion to a stereotype) is not "enabling". It's respecting their right to practice religion as they feel appropriate. I guess we just don't agree on that.

I don't base my dislike of others on their religious beliefs. I base it on whether or not they're douchebags, regardless of religious preference.

I don't have any issues with what they believe. The issue is when they try to force their beliefs on other people through legislation, such as banning gay marrige and civil unions. The entire argument against it comes from organized religions, and they lobby the government and public using massive amounts of money funnled in from so called "peacefully practicing" members. They'll also use my money to fund idiotic education practices such as "abstenance only" sex education.

Same thing goes for a lot of the "blue laws" in many states. Tell me why I shouldn't be able to buy beer on a Sunday? Why should I take a "live and let live" attitude when they're not?

I don't go around harrasing religious individuals, but I'm damn sure opposed to their organizations gaining any more control over this country than they already have, and that means being vocal with my views sometimes.
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      05-15-2010, 02:48 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by ragingclue View Post
People don't need religion to be violent.

No, but religions damn sure give them a very good reason to be violent, and it's been proven time and time again thoughout history. People are killed in the name of God every single day of the week, and to even suggest that religions don't contribute to violence on a large scale is absurd.
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      05-15-2010, 03:35 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carve View Post
The world's two biggest philanthropists, Buffet and Gates, are atheists.
In point of fact they are both agnostic, not atheist.

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In terms of doing things I take a fairly scientific approach to why things happen and how they happen. I don't know if there's a god or not, but I think religious principles are quite valid.
PBS interview with David Frost (November 1995)
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