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      05-12-2010, 01:40 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by Cdnrockies View Post
How can you suggest it's not a halo car?

This car changes everything for Toyota/Lexus. You don't think that this will trickle down throughout both companies? Toyota already has the FT-86 in the works...re-entering the performance game that they have been absent from since the Supra. Lexus already has the F and needs to expand their performance line up. Until they do they can't fully compete with the Germans.

I said it's not a halo car like the Veyron. It is Toyotas halo project (which I think are silly because they make no sense) but doesn't seperate from the pack like the Bugatti.
And let me offer a little olive branch here. I appreciate your point of view. It is a great car. If it were a $200K car that would have been available to the unwashed masses I would be singing its praises (maybe even ordering one-that would be pretty close to my financial edge though).
I have been following this project for years because I was interested in buying one. After I bought my Nissan I thought that it would be great to get the performance of the GTR with fit and finish of a Lexus. But it was not to be.
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      05-12-2010, 01:43 AM   #112
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JDM fight.. nissan guy vs lexus guy
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      05-12-2010, 01:50 AM   #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 997GT3 View Post
I said it's not a halo car like the Veyron. It is Toyotas halo project (which I think are silly because they make no sense) but doesn't seperate from the pack like the Bugatti.
And let me offer a little olive branch here. I appreciate your point of view. It is a great car. If it were a $200K car that would have been available to the unwashed masses I would be singing its praises (maybe even ordering one-that would be pretty close to my financial edge though).
I have been following this project for years because I was interested in buying one. After I bought my Nissan I thought that it would be great to get the performance of the GTR with fit and finish of a Lexus. But it was not to be.
Fair enough. I've never stated it was the best car in the world. I do think it is going to surprise a lot of people once the actual production cars appear. There is some speculation that the mules aren't actually fully carbon fiber and the actual production version will be even lighter (just a rumour on the Lexus boards at this point).

I do find it amusing that everyone is singing the praises of the Italia or McLaren and yet there has been nothing definitive to suggest they are any worse or better than the LF A. The only thing negative about the LF A to most is the price tag.

You could argue all day about whether the price and production numbers are the right decision. The bottom line is Lexus had/has no issue with moving them at this price and it will change Toyota/Lexus forever.

Did you know that you can actually buy them everywhere else in the world but in NA where you can only lease? The 2 alocated to Singapore were sold for $800K.
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      05-12-2010, 01:52 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by 997GT3 View Post
I don't believe the GTR is a money loser but I'll research that. Ghosn's goal was to make it a profitable car and the price has crept up because they wanted to keep it in the black.
You'll find the first reports of unprofitability surfaced with the announcement of Spec V pricing a long time ago. Nissan want to share the platform further to recoup their development and testing costs (god, I hope they bring the Essence concept to production with this drivetrain); you think that all the time they spent while camped out at the 'Ring and flying their team to Laguna Seca came cheap? While nowhere near as bespoke as the LFA, it's still bespoke compared to, say, the Z06 or Porsche Turbo. For Nissan to profitably offer this car at $85k makes almost zero sense.

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Originally Posted by 997GT3 View Post
If the LFA and the GTR were even remotely close in price I would easily pick the Lexus over the Nissan.
But that's the problem. The lexus costs 5-6 times as much.
Well, why should it be remotely close in price? By the time GT-R production is over, they'll probably sell over 8 times as many cars. Carbon ceramic brakes vs steel. Naturally aspirated engine running to 9k rpm and making 550 hp vs a 485 hp engine relying on turbos. Impeccable build quality and insanely anal attention to detail vs Boxster (maybe?) build quality. When Nissan were developing the GT-R on the 'Ring, they ran 4 laps per stint before the brakes and tires were overwhelmed; the LFA, in its very basic form but with steel brakes, raced in two 24-hour enduros on the most punishing circuit in the world as well as a few other 4-hour races there, in which it recently won its class. CF monocoque built in-house on their own looms vs steel unibody. C'mon, to expect the LFA to cost as little as the GT-R is pretty damn unrealistic. An F430 looks like a damn rip-off in comparison to the GT-R; yet Ferrari moved probably 2500 of them last year, even with a crap economy and the 458 in the wings.
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      05-12-2010, 01:53 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by twinturbo335 View Post
JDM fight.. nissan guy vs lexus guy
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      05-12-2010, 02:02 AM   #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guibo View Post

Well, why should it be remotely close in price?

Let me clarify. I meant $200Kish. Which I would think would be attainable if the production numbers were high enough. The LFA should be a slight step up from a GT2.
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      05-12-2010, 02:08 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by Cdnrockies View Post
Did you know that you can actually buy them everywhere else in the world but in NA where you can only lease? The 2 alocated to Singapore were sold for $800K.
That's a lot of cake.
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      05-12-2010, 02:09 AM   #118
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the sound of that v10 is amazing!
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      05-12-2010, 02:12 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by 997GT3 View Post
If it were a $200K car that would have been available to the unwashed masses I would be singing its praises (maybe even ordering one-that would be pretty close to my financial edge though).
Oh please. If it were $200k, you'd still be wondering what justifies its 150% price premium over a GT-R. The fact of the matter is, Nissan set out to beat Porsche's Turbo lap time on the 'Ring. Numbers mattered to them. Lexus, on the other hand, chose to produce a car that offers Ferrari levels of driver involvement, to emphasize the experience of driving. Closer to the Scuderia scale than to the 599 GTB, which let's face it, is a more logical "competitor" to the LFA: both are front-engined, considerably more limited production and more expensive than the mid-engined V8 Ferraris. Yet who in their right mind considers the 599 a competitor to the F430?
Do you honestly think it is beyond the expertise of Toyota to produce a powerful 6-cylinder turbocharged car, beyond their ability work with any of their transmission partners on a DCT?

Just to give you some more insight about what an industry veteran would consider the LFA to not be a competitor to (and why) consider this from Motor Trend who interviewed Tobias Moers, Director of Vehicle Development for Mercedes-AMG:
"MT: Who do you consider the competition for your SLS AMG?

TM: Our main competitors are the Porsche [911] Turbo, Audi R8 V10...We talk about Ferrari, but the California is more in terms of the SL and the F430 is too aggressive compared to our car. And we don't know anything about the new one, the 458 Italia.

MT: So how about the Lexus LFA? Do you think it is an SLS competitor?

TM: Actually I don't know. It is quite hard to calculate how good that car is... I saw it on the Nordschleife for the 24 hours race. Ahh. I don't know. It's not a competitor, because they are talking about what, 500 cars? That's what I read in the press kit. I don't think so. It is too expensive. It's not a competitor. No.

...maybe it's fast. It could be, but it is such a small market."
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      05-12-2010, 02:15 AM   #120
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lexus fail, with all the extra money I have after buying a GTR I can stomp the LFA.
all you need is the AMS kit
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      05-12-2010, 02:17 AM   #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guibo View Post
Oh please. If it were $200k, you'd still be wondering what justifies its 150% price premium over a GT-R
OK I guess you're a mind reader and prognosticator too.
And I don't quite get what that quote is suppose to prove? It's just stating the obvious. BTW, I think the SLS is overpriced too.
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      05-12-2010, 02:22 AM   #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 997GT3 View Post
Let me clarify. I meant $200Kish. Which I would think would be attainable if the production numbers were high enough. The LFA should be a slight step up from a GT2.
Well, maybe they wanted a halo car like Porsche had with the CGT, McMerc with its SLR, and Ferrari with its Enzo. A slight step up from the GT2 doesn't establish Toyota/Lexus as capable of building a deeply emotive car.
And you also have to consider the halo effect on what should be Lexus's most important market, Japan. There, Lexus have only recently gained traction against German competitors; in their introductory year a short while ago, the Germans absolutely clobbered them.
Attainable is relative. You look at the LFA's $400k price and laugh at how miserably high the price is. A Corvette guy looks at your $200k "attainable" proposal and might think you need a lobotomy.
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      05-12-2010, 02:30 AM   #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 997GT3 View Post
OK I guess you're a mind reader and prognosticator too.
And I don't quite get what that quote is suppose to prove? It's just stating the obvious. BTW, I think the SLS is overpriced too.
Why would I have to be a mind reader to reach a conclusion using your own logic?
It's stating the obvious, yet you consider the 458/Gallardo to be legit competitors to the LFA despite their prices AND production volumes suggesting otherwise. Looks like your grasp of the obvious could be improved.
SLS is overpriced only if nobody buys it. For a 570-hp naturally aspirated car without AWD and only sub-300mm rear tires to lap the 'Ring in 7:40 by a non-factory development driver is damn impressive IMO. Add to that the gullwing party trick, alloy spaceframe, and great-sounding engine...well I can certainly see the appeal.
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      05-12-2010, 02:36 AM   #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guibo View Post
Well, maybe they wanted a halo car like Porsche had with the CGT, McMerc with its SLR, and Ferrari with its Enzo. A slight step up from the GT2 doesn't establish Toyota/Lexus as capable of building a deeply emotive car.
And you also have to consider the halo effect on what should be Lexus's most important market, Japan. There, Lexus have only recently gained traction against German competitors; in their introductory year a short while ago, the Germans absolutely clobbered them.
Attainable is relative. You look at the LFA's $400k price and laugh at how miserably high the price is. A Corvette guy looks at your $200k "attainable" proposal and might think you need a lobotomy.

If that's what the 10 years of effort has really been about, more power to them. Up until last year the speculation was that the LFA was going to be priced south of $200k. So it was shocking when the price and availabilty were announced.
You're right that its all relative but part of my definition of obtainable would be that if I had the cash I could really get one.
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      05-12-2010, 02:42 AM   #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guibo View Post
Why would I have to be a mind reader to reach a conclusion using your own logic?
It's stating the obvious, yet you consider the 458/Gallardo to be legit competitors to the LFA despite their prices AND production volumes suggesting otherwise. Looks like your grasp of the obvious could be improved.

My logic? I have stated repeatedly that a price around $200k would make the LFA alluring. And I have stated that to get to that price they'd need to step up production.
Frankly you need to take off those rose colored glasses when looking at this vehicle.
The SLS is Mercedes doing what American cars companies are doing too much of: looking at the past.
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      05-12-2010, 03:11 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by 997GT3 View Post
My logic? I have stated repeatedly that a price around $200k would make the LFA alluring. And I have stated that to get to that price they'd need to step up production.
Frankly you need to take off those rose colored glasses when looking at this vehicle.
The SLS is Mercedes doing what American cars companies are doing too much of: looking at the past.
Your logic is that since Car A is faster than Car B for $xyz, Car B is overpriced. Guess what, at $200k the LFA is still overpriced, using your logic.
You mean step up production like Porsche did with the CGT, the values of which are tanking left and right? How's that for a halo effect? And what makes you think Toyota even have the production line capacity to step up production? Making this level of supercar is pretty much new to them. Hell, even Porsche did not have the production capacity to form their own CF monocoques for the CGT. Nor did Ferrari which has had decades of building Formula One cars. Both companies farmed out the monocoque construction to the same firm.
With a username like 997GT3, you shouldn't look down at any company for looking at the past. The SLS is using modern technology (alloy spaceframe, DCT) with an eye toward the future (hybrid/electric drive).
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      05-12-2010, 03:28 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by 997GT3 View Post
If that's what the 10 years of effort has really been about, more power to them. Up until last year the speculation was that the LFA was going to be priced south of $200k. So it was shocking when the price and availabilty were announced.
Wow, so you're basing your disappointment on unreferenced "speculation." Well, I'm pretty sure we don't have Lexus to blame for that.
BTW, it was known as far back as 2 years ago on Lexus forums that the price would be 375-400k USD. Apparently, a Chicago area Lexus dealer had already taken 9 deposits on the car, sight unseen with next to zero specifications known about the car.
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      05-12-2010, 07:32 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by Guibo View Post
Wow, so you're basing your disappointment on unreferenced "speculation." Well, I'm pretty sure we don't have Lexus to blame for that.
BTW, it was known as far back as 2 years ago on Lexus forums that the price would be 375-400k USD. Apparently, a Chicago area Lexus dealer had already taken 9 deposits on the car, sight unseen with next to zero specifications known about the car.
So 9 deposits were taken with no specs from one dealer yet the price was known two years ago?
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      05-12-2010, 07:40 AM   #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guibo View Post
Your logic is that since Car A is faster than Car B for $xyz, Car B is overpriced. Guess what, at $200k the LFA is still overpriced, using your logic.
You mean step up production like Porsche did with the CGT, the values of which are tanking left and right? How's that for a halo effect? And what makes you think Toyota even have the production line capacity to step up production? Making this level of supercar is pretty much new to them. Hell, even Porsche did not have the production capacity to form their own CF monocoques for the CGT. Nor did Ferrari which has had decades of building Formula One cars. Both companies farmed out the monocoque construction to the same firm.
With a username like 997GT3, you shouldn't look down at any company for looking at the past. The SLS is using modern technology (alloy spaceframe, DCT) with an eye toward the future (hybrid/electric drive).


Your analysis is wrong. I never said because one car is faster than another one should necessarily charge more but I did say they should be the same league. And frankly I don't see the LFA being worth $400k.
And by your logic its a halo car and price doesn't matter so why not turn a profit? You've compared it to an Enzo. So why not charge $700-$800k?

And there's a bit of a difference between a car that been in production evolving over time and a taking inspiration from a car that hasn't been made for 50 years.
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Last edited by 991GT3; 05-12-2010 at 07:55 AM.
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      05-12-2010, 11:12 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by 997GT3 View Post
Your analysis is wrong. I never said because one car is faster than another one should necessarily charge more but I did say they should be the same league. And frankly I don't see the LFA being worth $400k.
And by your logic its a halo car and price doesn't matter so why not turn a profit? You've compared it to an Enzo. So why not charge $700-$800k?

And there's a bit of a difference between a car that been in production evolving over time and a taking inspiration from a car that hasn't been made for 50 years.
Wait, what makes you think they should be in the same league? A Bentley Continental Supersports has an MSRP similar to a Scuderia. Are you under the impression that they are in the same performance league? An Audi R8 is priced the same as a ZR1, yet is comprehensively destroyed in terms of objective performance. R8 is overpriced, is it?
Perhaps they've done their own calculations as to what resale values would hurt the brand image rather than help and have come to the conclusion that ~$400k is about right. But just because Ferrari could have sold each Enzo at $1M doesn't mean the LFA is not worth $400k.

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So 9 deposits were taken with no specs from one dealer yet the price was known two years ago?
Based on what I've read, yes.
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