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      05-06-2010, 10:32 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueZ4AZ View Post
But.....

Slavery - bad
Taser the unruly fan - good

I formed my very opinion on the taser incident before I knew it was with the majority.
The punishment definitely fit the crime.
I guess this concept is beyond your grasp.

At one time the MAJORITY thought slavery - good.

They were wrong then, just like you're wrong now. A taser is a potential deadly force, and it should be used based on the rules for use of deadly force, just like a firearm or club is.

Of course, I'm guessing you don't really know anything at all about things like that.

Being a nuisance is grounds for arrest, but it's damn sure not grounds for using deadly force. There was ZERO threat to anyone involved here, and you can clearly see that from the video.
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      05-06-2010, 10:35 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremyc74 View Post
Being a nuisance is grounds for arrest, but it's damn sure not grounds for using deadly force. There was ZERO threat to anyone involved here, and you can clearly see that from the video.
Taser? Deadly force? Really???
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      05-06-2010, 10:37 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueZ4AZ View Post
But.....

Slavery - bad
Taser the unruly fan - good

I formed my very opinion on the taser incident before I knew it was with the majority.
The punishment definitely fit the crime.
The cops and security guards aren't there to dole out punishment. they are there to arrest and detain, the court system & jail is where they get the punishment.
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      05-06-2010, 10:45 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ragingclue View Post
Taser? Deadly force? Really???

Where have you been? There have been hundreds of people killed by tasers.

http://www.aclunc.org/issues/crimina...rs_lives.shtml
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      05-06-2010, 10:58 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremyc74 View Post
Where have you been? There have been hundreds of people killed by tasers.

http://www.aclunc.org/issues/crimina...rs_lives.shtml
ACLU eh?

LOL.
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      05-06-2010, 11:00 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremyc74 View Post
Where have you been? There have been hundreds of people killed by tasers.

http://www.aclunc.org/issues/crimina...rs_lives.shtml
From the other thread:
Quote:
Originally Posted by immiketoo View Post
So you seriously believe an organization as politically motivated as Amnesty International? Wake Forest Medical School did an independent study in 2008 that clearly refutes your unsubstantiated claim. You aren't an idiot for disagreeing with me. You are an idiot because you are wrong, don't know it, continue to spout un-truths and because you never bothered to come to the argument with anything other than personal opinion.

I am not, nor will I ever dispute there have been Taser abuses, nor will I defend cops who abuse their power. Unfortunately, there have been abuses in all occupations, and cops get the worst press when they do it. Deservedly so. The problem is that this country has gone down the path of fear. Its what I call my field mouse mentality. They don't know or care if the shadow looming overhead is a hawk or a kid flying a kite. Better safe than sorry. Never take responsibility for your own actions. Blame the cops, your parents, teachers, or the government.

To your last point. Tasers are non-lethal in the majority of individuals. There are conditions that exist in the human body that can be affected by a sudden adrenaline dump, which I can assure you, the Taser provides. ALL of those conditions are caused by the person who died PRIOR to being shot. High levels of narcotics, alcohol or other substances combined with the stress of confronting the cops and the adrenaline cause a situation called excited delirium which accounts for the majority of the cases you allege were caused by Tasers. Look into the specifics of your cases and you will see that yet again, the subjects who died some time after being Tased had conditions that would likely have killed them anyway. And, they were ALL violating the law.

Every medical examination of these cases except one showed that Tasers were NOT the cause of death, and the one said it was only a contributing factor in the death and only because it was temporally close to the death. Your number is miniscule in the percentage of deaths that occur in police encounters and most of those never make the media because there is no story when someone gets shot by the police when they deserve it. The cases of inappropriate police violence do, but they are the exception. When pepper spray was introduced to policing, there were similar outcries. Same with the expandable baton.

Let's look at the hundreds of thousands of subjects that have been Tased and exhibit no negative side effects. Statistical analysis does not support your assumption. As to explaining to the families who have had someone die? Let's use the case this thread was created for and pretend that the guy died. Ma'am, your son died after breaking the law, inconveniencing several hundred thousand people and then resisting arrest. I'm sorry for your loss.
People also die from food poisoning. Therefore we should stop eating food as it is now considered "deadly".
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      05-06-2010, 11:01 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ragingclue View Post
ACLU eh?

LOL.
You think civil liberties are a joke?
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      05-06-2010, 11:02 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremyc74 View Post
I guess this concept is beyond your grasp.

At one time the MAJORITY thought slavery - good.

They were wrong then, just like you're wrong now. A taser is a potential deadly force, and it should be used based on the rules for use of deadly force, just like a firearm or club is.

Of course, I'm guessing you don't really know anything at all about things like that.

Being a nuisance is grounds for arrest, but it's damn sure not grounds for using deadly force. There was ZERO threat to anyone involved here, and you can clearly see that from the video.
Whether a taser is deadly force or not is your opinion. If that were proven already, then cops would not be tasering people as much, now would they?

Here's a little factoid for you: The majority ends up right sometimes too. I could reference thousands of instances where that occured.

Slavery and taser don't even belong in the same analogy. Stop with that ridiculous analogy.

My opinion is that the punishment fit the crime. If you don't agree with my opinion then I don't really know what else to tell you. There is really nothing you can do or say or any line of reasoning you could contrive that would ever change my opinion or the the opinion of the 71% of the folks that agree with me. Sorry.

Last edited by BlueZ4AZ; 05-06-2010 at 11:11 AM.
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      05-06-2010, 11:03 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ragingclue View Post
ACLU eh?

LOL.

Are you disputing their numbers? Or just looking for an excuse to ignore them?

They're one of the few organizations with enough money to conduct studies like this when the government refuses to, and enough clout to actually influence police policy on stuff like this.

Is there another source you'd consider more credible? I'd be glad to look into it if you can think of one, but I'm not going to waste my time if you're just going to disregaurd every citizen advocacy group without offering up any reason for doing so.
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      05-06-2010, 11:05 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ragingclue View Post
People also die from food poisoning. Therefore we should stop eating food as it is now considered "deadly".

You can't be serious with that argument. When was the last time a cop shoved food down your throat?
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      05-06-2010, 11:05 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremyc74 View Post
I guess this concept is beyond your grasp.

At one time the MAJORITY thought slavery - good.

They were wrong then, just like you're wrong now. A taser is a potential deadly force, and it should be used based on the rules for use of deadly force, just like a firearm or club is.

Of course, I'm guessing you don't really know anything at all about things like that.

Being a nuisance is grounds for arrest, but it's damn sure not grounds for using deadly force. There was ZERO threat to anyone involved here, and you can clearly see that from the video.
Comparing slavery to being tazered? What a analogy!

And citing the aclu you might as well cite wikipedia. The tazer is the least lethal force there. Don't act stupid and you won't get tazed. And in a city like philly where fans riot whether they win or lose who the hell knows what a fan is going to do when on the field?

As they said on the radio yesterday, unless your buck-ass-naked you should get tazed. If you think a baton to the head or back is a better solution, let's hear it?
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      05-06-2010, 11:07 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueZ4AZ View Post
Whether a taser is deadly force or not is your opinion. If that were proven already, then cops would not be tasering people as much, now would they?

Slavery and taser don't even belong in the same analogy. Stop with that ridiculous analogy.

My opinion is that the punishment fit the crime. If you don't agree with my opinion then I don't really know what else to tell you. There is really nothing you can do or say to change my opinion or the the opinion of the 71% of the folks that share the same opinion as me. Sorry.

I'm not making an analogy between tasers and slavery. I'm PROVING the point that the majority opinion isn't always right, and I think that's pretty obvious to anyone with half a brain.

Your opinion is so far out of whack I'm going to stop responding to it. Police officers have NO RIGHT to dole out punishment. AT ALL. The fact that you think they do, and it's justified demonstrates exactly how little you know.
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      05-06-2010, 11:10 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xbook View Post
You think civil liberties are a joke?
No; the ACLU is completely infallible and impartial on all issues. Everything they say or back should be carved in stone so that future generations know what the truth looks like.
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      05-06-2010, 11:20 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremyc74 View Post
I'm not making an analogy between tasers and slavery. I'm PROVING the point that the majority opinion isn't always right, and I think that's pretty obvious to anyone with half a brain.

Your opinion is so far out of whack I'm going to stop responding to it. Police officers have NO RIGHT to dole out punishment. AT ALL. The fact that you think they do, and it's justified demonstrates exactly how little you know.
Thank you for SHUTTING UP!

You do know that all the bitching and moaning you just did will do NOTHING to stop 100's of cops from tasering people this week?

Until the tasering rules and regulations change, we can continue to say that YOU are wrong.

Thanks for playing. You get a pat on the back for demonstrating to all of us what we already knew - that sometimes the majority isn't always right. However, to this point, that proves nothing in this case.

We have some lovely parting gifts for you back stage.

Last edited by BlueZ4AZ; 05-06-2010 at 12:22 PM.
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      05-06-2010, 11:22 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremyc74 View Post
You can't be serious with that argument. When was the last time a cop shoved food down your throat?
Tasers, with very slight incidence of death = deadly.

Therefore:

Food, also with very slight incidence of death = deadly.

I wasn't arguing about the delivery of either; I was simply commenting on the use of the adjective in that case.
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      05-06-2010, 11:24 AM   #38
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Out of the many, many people tasered every year, someone is bound to die from it. They be called outliers, son. That's why there are so ridiculously few deaths from tasers compared to the total amount of tasered people.
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      05-06-2010, 12:17 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Couch View Post
And citing the aclu you might as well cite wikipedia.
What the hell is this whole conspiracy against Wikipedia. How do you think I got through grad school? Look up the "citric acid cycle" and then try to tell me that Wikipedia isn't an amazing repository of information. Oh, and those notes and links at the bottom of the articles are ACTUAL scientific papers. But yeah, let's leave the info scattered around a thousand different places.



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      05-06-2010, 12:36 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ragingclue View Post
No; the ACLU is completely infallible and impartial on all issues. Everything they say or back should be carved in stone so that future generations know what the truth looks like.

What work of the ACLU do you specifically have an issue with?
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      05-06-2010, 01:03 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremyc74 View Post
What work of the ACLU do you specifically have an issue with?
Well I guess someone has to stand up for the possibility of stepping on the toes of terrorists....

I also personally object to how thoroughly they have done away with any sort of public "Christmas" mentionings or displays. Even though I'm agnostic, it's still pretty brutal to see how viciously they go after this stuff.... They make it a point to not only stand up for the minorities (in all respects; I have no problem with this), but also to crush anyone who doesn't agree with them, or anyone they themselves deem to be part of their problem.

I agree that they have done some great things over their history, but I also believe they could be one of the biggest hurdles here in this country in our effort to fight terrorism.

As an organization with extremely strong political interests on all fronts, I would not consider any studies they do as unbiased or infallible. IMO they are no cleaner nor unbiased than any other political giant.
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      05-06-2010, 01:08 PM   #42
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Well I guess someone has to stand up for the possibility of stepping on the toes of terrorists....

You mean like unconstitutional wiretapping that's done without any sort of court scrutiny? I'll take terrorists over tossing out the court any day of the week.

There data is well backed and peer reviewed. If you're going to take issue with it and expect to be taken seriously, you're going to have to do more than just make a statement that it's unbiased. If you've got some proof they're scewing the numbers, I'd love to see it.
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      05-06-2010, 01:29 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremyc74 View Post
You mean like unconstitutional wiretapping that's done without any sort of court scrutiny? I'll take terrorists over tossing out the court any day of the week.

There data is well backed and peer reviewed. If you're going to take issue with it and expect to be taken seriously, you're going to have to do more than just make a statement that it's unbiased. If you've got some proof they're scewing the numbers, I'd love to see it.
Untold numbers of people were about to die from all that crazy, dangerous wiretapping....

You want to be taken seriously posting a study done by the ACLU where the issue is LEO vs (alleged) criminal? Surely there are better and more reliable sources.

Link
Link

Maybe a Department of Justice backed study??

Look, if you want to use the ACLU study to back your argument, fine. That's your prerogative. I personally would take anything they publish on an issue like this with a grain of salt.
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      05-06-2010, 01:44 PM   #44
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Untold numbers of people were about to die from all that crazy, dangerous wiretapping....

.
Your argument is that just because it's not going to kill anyone, we should just disregaurd the Constitution?

No point in going any further with this for me then.
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