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View Poll Results: reduce the governemtn or tax and spend?
Regeanomics? 54 76.06%
Obamaomics? 17 23.94%
Voters: 71. You may not vote on this poll

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      10-27-2009, 11:15 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nostrum09 View Post
I submit one correction to the above -- item 2 should read:

2) Businesses (who will pass the tax increases on to the consumer, effectively meaning that even those who earn less than $250,000/year will see a tax increase by virtue of higher goods/services pricing)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan335 View Post
Or hire less employees....
Exactly. Obama may not come out directly and raise taxes via an income tax increase for the middle class but through the radical agenda he is trying to push the middle class and small business are going to be impacted way more then raising the tax rate a couple of percentages.

Cap-and-Trade, Health Care, Capital Gains tax increase, Expiring of Bush Tax Cuts, fat tax, soda tax, tax this and tax that it will add up to be the largest indirect tax increase on EVERYONE ever!
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      01-29-2010, 01:39 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EK_335i View Post
Exactly. Obama may not come out directly and raise taxes via an income tax increase for the middle class but through the radical agenda he is trying to push the middle class and small business are going to be impacted way more then raising the tax rate a couple of percentages.

Cap-and-Trade, Health Care, Capital Gains tax increase, Expiring of Bush Tax Cuts, fat tax, soda tax, tax this and tax that it will add up to be the largest indirect tax increase on EVERYONE ever!
and printing more money is a hidden tax due to inlfation. your money is less becasue the government spent more.
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      01-29-2010, 08:05 PM   #25
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From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationa...idential_terms


This table lists the gross U.S. federal debt[1] as a percentage of GDP by Presidential term since World War II.[2] The gross federal debt as a percentage of GDP is currently the highest it has been in 59 years, reaching levels last seen in 1951 after World War II.

(Green is lowering the debt relative to GDP, and Red is raising the debt relative to GDP)

U.S. president ↓ Party ↓ Term years ↓ Start debt/GDP* ↓ End debt/GDP* ↓ Increase debt ($T) ↓ Increase debt/GDP ↓
Roosevelt/Truman D 1945-1948 117.5% 93.2% 0.05 -24.3%
Truman Harry Truman D 1949-1953 93.2% 71.3% 0.01 -21.9%
Eisenhower1 Dwight Eisenhower R 1953-1957 71.3% 60.5% 0.01 -10.8%
Eisenhower2 Dwight Eisenhower R 1957-1961 61.5% 55.1% 0.02 -5.4%
Kennedy/Johnson D 1961-1965 55.1% 46.9% 0.03 -8.2%
Johnson Lyndon Johnson D 1965-1969 46.9% 38.6% 0.05 -8.3%
Nixon1 Richard Nixon R 1969-1973 38.6% 35.7% 0.07 -2.9%

Nixon2 Nixon/Ford R 1973-1977 35.7% 35.8% 0.19 +0.1%
Carter Jimmy Carter D 1977-1981 35.8% 32.6% 0.18 -3.2%
Reagan1 Ronald Reagan R 1981-1985 32.6% 43.9% 0.65 +11.3%
Reagan2 Ronald Reagan R 1985-1989 43.9% 53.1% 1.04 +9.2%
Bush GHW George H. W. Bush R 1989-1993 53.1% 66.2% 1.40 +13.1%

Clinton1 Bill Clinton D 1993-1997 66.2% 65.6% 1.12 -0.6%
Clinton2 Bill Clinton D 1997-2001 65.6% 57.4% 0.42 -8.2%

Bush GW1 George W. Bush R 2001-2005 57.4% 64.3% 1.88 +6.9%
Bush GW2 George W. Bush R 2005-2009 64.3% 75.5% 3.02 +11.2%

Obama1 Barack Obama D 2009-Present 75.5% TBD TBD TBD

Notes:

* In the United States, the federal budget is proposed by the President, then possibly modified by the House and Senate before approval or veto by the President.

* By tenure, the largest increases in gross debt relative to GDP occurred under George H.W. Bush (+13.1%), George W. Bush (+18.1%), and Ronald Reagan (+20.5%).
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      01-29-2010, 10:10 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EK_335i View Post
Exactly. Obama may not come out directly and raise taxes via an income tax increase for the middle class but through the radical agenda he is trying to push the middle class and small business are going to be impacted way more then raising the tax rate a couple of percentages.

Cap-and-Trade, Health Care, Capital Gains tax increase, Expiring of Bush Tax Cuts, fat tax, soda tax, tax this and tax that it will add up to be the largest indirect tax increase on EVERYONE ever!

Sometimes the tax increases are somewhat less visible.

In 2007, the FICA limit was $97,500. That meant whatever you made above that amount was not taxed for Social Security. It also meant that income didn't count towards your base either.

In 2008, the limited jumped to $102,000 and then again in 2009 to $106,000. And in 2004, it was $87,900. The FICA tax is 6.2% for the capped portion.

If we assume someone with $110,000 in taxable wages and they didn't get a raise from 2004 to 2009, this is how their taxes would be affected.

2004 - Taxes were $5,450
2008 - Taxes were $6,324, an increase of $874 (+16%.)
2009 - Taxes would be $6,572, an increase of $248 over 2008 (+3.9%) and an increase of $1,122 over 2004 (+21%.)


This happens under every President, so for any of them to say "I have not raised your taxes 1 cent!" is a lie. Or more likely, just ignorance, because they don't have a clue about all the taxes that burden the US working citizen...

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      02-01-2010, 11:33 PM   #27
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Lib

Very well done

Quote:
Clearly, the combination of huge public debt and having the highest corporate taxes in the world has worked well for Japan. We should follow that model.
Exactly! Japan is a perfect example of the failure of Keynsian economics.

Quote:
I trust in myself - peace the fuck out if none of this shit works in the end.
Fuckin A!

Quote:
and printing more money is a hidden tax due to inlfation. your money is less becasue the government spent more.
This couldn't be more true. At this point, we have two choices:
1. Inflate our way out of our hole or...
2. Technical default around 2014

IMO Obamanomics vs. Reganomics is more like liberal/keynsian economics vs. conservative/friedman/austrian economics (though there are tremendous variations among that last group).

What it boils down to is efficient market participants. Simply put, the government is not an efficient market participant. The government allocates itself wealth by decree not by market participation. They (the government) do not earn their share of buying power by demonstrating superior business acumen. Those who are wealthy are efficient market participants. If they inherited the wealth and are inefficient, the market will eventually strip them of it. If the wealthy don't spend, the lower velocity and increased savings helps out the rest of the economy by keeping prices and interest rates low. Simple shit.

IMO, the role of the government is two fold: standardize and enforce. By standardize I mean create a legal framework within which commerce is conducted (property rights, etc, think ATX for the economy) and by enforce... well that's pretty obvious.

Sadly, we're in such a clusterfuck now I fear that a return to such simple and pure market is nigh impossible. Here are some of my own suggestions:

1. eliminate the payroll tax and then raise taxes on gasoline to offset the elimination of the payroll tax. Explanation in #2.

2. further raise taxes on gasoline to subsidize the conversion of Class 8 trucks to run on CNG. Here in the U.S. we consumed 19.4mbpd in 2009 even though we only produced about 8.5mbpd. That ~11mbpd leak costs us... ready... about $240billion/year at $60/bbl. Now even though the amount of income available to purchase distillate products hasn't changed due to suggestions #1, the sticker shock will force people to drive less and buy more fuel efficient cars. #2 would further this cause.

3. offer both individuals and corporations an "elective tax." This one is a little strange but here's how it goes: say you're sitting on ~$1million in cash. If you fork it over to the government for this "elective tax" the government will invest this money in retrofitting government buildings to be energy efficient and, in return, will give you a lifetime annual tax deduction of say $100,000 that is exempt from the alternative minimum tax and transferrable upon death. If one were to fork over enough cash, they could theoretically be tax free for the rest of their lives. This makes sense as many energy efficiency modifications have annualized ROIs in excess of 10% (some are as high as 100%). Though revenues to the government would fall in the future it would be commensurate with reductions in the budget that the government needs to function with the added bonus of lower expected tax rates which should increase investment and ultimately productive capacity.

4. If you need to get radical, raise gas taxes even further and use the proceeds to subsidize local agriculture. This just further reduces the oil drain on the economy and it would put a fair number of people back to work. Basically, instead of paying Canada and Mexico to run our tractors/combines, you'd be paying Americans to work in vacant commercial buildings converted to greenhouses.

I'm tired....
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      02-01-2010, 11:42 PM   #28
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As an edit to my last post, on #3, let corporations re-patriate earnings tax free for this, uh... elective tax (sounds stupid, I know).
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      02-02-2010, 05:03 PM   #29
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Iono man, Keynes rap better than Hayek tho.

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      02-18-2010, 06:32 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nostrum09 View Post
I submit one correction to the above -- item 2 should read:

2) Businesses (who will pass the tax increases on to the consumer, effectively meaning that even those who earn less than $250,000/year will see a tax increase by virtue of higher goods/services pricing)
+1...I agree
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      02-20-2010, 03:39 AM   #31
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Obama's ratings are more fail then ever.

Last edited by sym16; 02-20-2010 at 01:13 PM.
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      03-22-2010, 08:02 PM   #32
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What exactly is "governemtn"?

Thanks in advance.

P.S. Sarcasm provided free of charge. Offer ends 03/31/2010*
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      03-22-2010, 08:04 PM   #33
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False Dichotomy

The logical fallacy of false dilemma (also called false dichotomy, the either-or fallacy) involves a situation in which only two alternatives are considered, when in fact there are other options. Closely related are failing to consider a range of options and the tendency to think in extremes, called black-and-white thinking. Strictly speaking, the prefix "di" in "dilemma" means "two". When a list of more than two choices is offered, but there are other choices not mentioned, then the fallacy is called the fallacy of false choice, or the fallacy of exhaustive hypotheses.
False dilemma can arise intentionally, when fallacy is used in an attempt to force a choice ("If you are not with us, you are against us.") But the fallacy can arise simply by accidental omission—possibly through a form of wishful thinking or ignorance—rather than by deliberate deception ("I thought we were friends, but all my friends were at my apartment last night and you weren't there.")
When two alternatives are presented, they are often, though not always, two extreme points on some spectrum of possibilities. This can lend credence to the larger argument by giving the impression that the options are mutually exclusive, even though they need not be. Furthermore, the options are typically presented as being collectively exhaustive, in which case the fallacy can be overcome, or at least weakened, by considering other possibilities, or perhaps by considering a whole spectrum of possibilities, as in fuzzy logic.
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      03-22-2010, 08:16 PM   #34
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What exactly is "governemtn"?

Thanks in advance.

P.S. Sarcasm provided free of charge. Offer ends 03/31/2010*
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      04-22-2010, 06:29 PM   #35
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I trust the founders. Less government and more freedom. Less Karl Marx, more James Madison.

HS
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      04-23-2010, 10:51 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonScott View Post
I trust the founders. Less government and more freedom. Less Karl Marx, more James Madison.

HS
I'm assuming you meant Adam Smith. James Madison was an ultra-liberal in his time.

And "trusting" in any doctrine is stupid. Learn the differences.

It's clear (to me) that economies that operate mostly by the classic model will throw the system into chaos as every cycle of boom and bust further enriches the wealthy class. The wealthy class is the least affected by recessions, and take the most advantage of economic boom.

Keynesian economies, while less impressive in their peak, dramatically lower the amplitude of the boom/bust cycle, therefore increasing the quality of life for the majority of its participants (read lower and middle classes).

Look up the Laffer curve (that's Reaganomics, since Reagan didn't know jack shit about economics. He "trusted" his ideas). Republicans are _always_ working under the assumption that we are past the equilibrium point of taxation revenue. I believe that was the case when Reagan came to power. It has not been so for a long time, which was evidenced by the collapsing economy after Bush turned the dial further into tax cuts.
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      04-23-2010, 11:10 AM   #37
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No I mean James Madison, author of the Constitution. Your a product of a liberal education, James Madison was not an ulta-liberal that's just what you were taught.

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      04-23-2010, 11:21 AM   #38
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Yeah, them Virginia schools are communist... You're talking about the guy who expanded the military and, essentially, increased taxes on business to support the expansion of the federal government.
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      04-24-2010, 11:58 PM   #39
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Back to the original post. People who view complex issues through two, and only two, points of view are idiots. But it does make life simple.

But then so does a lobotomy.
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      05-07-2010, 12:27 PM   #40
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within two years Reagan had the economy that Carter ruined turned around and full steam ahead. going on two years the big O has nothing but fail in the economy department.
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