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      02-16-2007, 10:05 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by THE JEDI View Post
...Lexus got them scared and so does benz...


e92 ///M3 --->

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      02-16-2007, 10:32 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by THE JEDI View Post
Like I keep telling you all. I love BMW cars, but the production cycle that they have for their cars are just stupid. We have been waiting for the M3 for how long now, and now they say they aint ready yet..bull shit...Lexus got them scared and so does benz... ..not that I would buy either, I wouldn't for any reason.....but to continue to space out the damn introductions does not help.. they have been talking about the E93 convertible for months now.. .no prices...bs, get on the fricking ball BMW...:mad: ...because I would buy a porsche and not skip a beat this I promise, and a used 911...is still on par
1) The E92 M3s time to market from the release of the E90 is basically the same as it was for the E46, so it should come as no surprise.

2) I can assure you that Lexus doesn't have BMW scared. When it comes to sport sedans, BMW sets the bar, not the other way around.

3) If you want a Porsche, buy a Porsche.

-Adam
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      02-17-2007, 02:08 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post
According to my notes international launch for the new M3 Coupe is still the IAA in Frankfurt this coming September . With european sales commencing afterwards and if any delays - late 2007. USA sales are still down for Spring 2008. How you are getting demo cars when the production car marketing photography and film shoot has not even commenced yet ?
I am sorry but i can access BMW network and I do not find any customer/dealer information out of the internal structure for ordering the
M3 as the status still remains "in development". and classified within BMW AG.
All dealers will have to go with is advance material but not full specifications .
Thanks alot for the clarification!!

Best regards, south
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      02-17-2007, 03:36 AM   #48
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On we go...

Jussi: On the topic of oxymorons: Clearly you must agree that in general, and in fact in MOST cases dealers (we call them "stealers" in the US) are less knowledgable than your average forum enthusiast. I'm not saying your dealer is not knowledgeable, it's just funny how everyone distrusts (to the point of making fun of them) their dealers, with reason, but you have complete trust. Next I never stated I have any better sources than you do, my sources are obvious, this and other good forums. So I guess I have now revealed them. I simply always try to bring some balance and logic to the table.

Like brandonlowe said we have a case here of multiple reasonably qualified sources with totally 100% contradictory "evidence". I disagree with South here: One way to reconcile things is by judging the best/most reliable source. Scott26 and Martin Birkmann seem like darn good sources to me, both with BMW. A dealer can be knowledgable but is most often not. Scott26 and Martin have only chimed in about a release schedule not the SMG/6M/DSG thing. Let's call that a separate topic (I know - with how well we stay on topic not much chance for that...). However, could it be that BMW is purposefully supplying inaccurate information?

We need history and logic as well as sources to best guess the future (and satisfy our raging curiosity and desire to know).

Logic:

South: If the recent mules in Europe are FEP cars and the car in Geneva will be 99% production what the heck will BWM be doing between March and September - 7 months? Let alone between March 06 and spring/summer 07??? Cars can be designed and brought to production today in about 18 months (GM and others, typically). Can BMW really take one FULL YEAR after Geneva (March 2007) to get this car to it's largest market, the US? I suspect design work began on E92 M3 in mid to late 2005. This would mean 2.5 years from begining of design to sale in largest market when the chasis has already been designed (most of the engine and probably tranny and diff as well). Just does not make any sense at all. It is always in the best interest of a company to get profits from sales of its products absolutely ASAP, assuming their own products don't compete.

History:

BMW claims it takes an M about 2 years to be introduced after the base model is introduced. Perhaps they get cars like the 328 designed and brought to production in 18 month but don't worry as much nor have the specialist (human) resources to get Ms to market at the same brisk pace. Someone needs to put together some time lines for E46 M3, E60 M5 and E63 M6 including dates of first spy photos, launch of non M base car, debuting shows and 1st EU and 1st US deliveries. Any volunteers? Come on Jussi - I know you can help big time with this one! I will make another post on this topic. I have looked for this informaton in the past but have found it quite hard to get it completely and accurately. Also the M5 may not be a particularly fair/representative example because I heard there were significant, late and unplanned delays from some problems (with production I think). I think this is why Scott26 always qualifies dates and says things like barring any unforseen problems and statements like that.

Well I'd hate to miss this car as well but if summer 2008 is the final factual US launch date I may be headed to P-car territory as well. That is for now but it would fade so fast! I know it doesn't do an ounce of good but, BMW - get moving or be prepared to loose my money and many others. A few others have already shared this exact senitment and some have acted and posted their bounty (e.g. mloyelo).
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      02-17-2007, 03:50 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Well I'd hate to miss this car as well but if summer 2008 is the final factual US launch date I may be headed to P-car territory as well. That is for now but it would fade so fast! I know it doesn't do an ounce of good but, BMW - get moving or be prepared to loose my money and many others. A few others have already shared this exact senitment and some have acted and posted their bounty (e.g. mloyelo).
P-car = Porsche?

If so, I'm in the same boat as you. The way I see it, the only car company out there that's most similar to BMW is Porsche.

The funny thing is, I just got over telling my friends that I've got a BMW---sometimes I feel guilty saying it, especially to people who are older than me because they have a Ford Escort and I've got a new BMW. Just wait until I say I've got an '07 or '08 Porsche (assuming BMW doesn't release the M3 in the US by December 31st of this year).
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      02-17-2007, 03:58 AM   #50
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honestly I'd hate to say it... I love bmw
i love the M3 more than anything, but if it honestly is summer 2008.... when I am barely surviving to Summer 2007...there is no way I can do it again.
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      02-17-2007, 06:29 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JK42 View Post
As far as swamp2s oxymoron note: These are facts from the guys that DO know their shit, that actually know the release schedules, talk to BMW in Germany and have orders placed within the BMW ordering system for the cars. But I guess you have better sources of information. Would you like to reveal them?
You were the same one that told us in the past that the car was going to smoke the C6 z06 at the track. Sorry, you lost all your credibility here.

The dealers don't know much if anything more than most of the people here. Heck, a bmw insider directly contradicts your post in this thread. get real.
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      02-17-2007, 06:35 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brandonlowe View Post
Hi Jussi and others, I want to interject here and thank those that bring helpful info to the forum that we wouldn't otherwise have. No sense in beating up anyone for trying to help. I always look forward to reading someone's QUALIFIED information. I believe Jussi , SCOTT26, and others appear to be QUALIFIED. Unfortunately , the two listed above offer differing info. We ALL want the M3 here, now!
One of them is qualified, the other makes stuff up to try to make himself important. Way too often Jussi posts stuff that just makes no sense in the face of physics. Scott on the other hand has pretty much been dead on in the majority of his posts and none of them have the extreme fanboy tone of jussi.
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      02-17-2007, 07:29 AM   #53
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Right, I just knew, ahem, a person, like you had to step in on this thread. Too bad it's a qualified fact from multiple BMW insiders (and not just someone who plays one on a forum) that the cars will be rolling out in May of this year from the production line. Let's see what kind of mockery and arrogant bullshit you'll post then. It's only a few months away.

Probably should have known better not to post this here at all, but I guess I forgot how some few bad apples on this forum spoil it for the most of the good people on it.

Regards,

Jussi
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      02-17-2007, 08:46 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by JK42 View Post
Probably should have known better not to post this here at all, but I guess I forgot how some few bad apples on this forum spoil it for the most of the good people on it.

Regards,

Jussi
Jussi,

Believe it or not you are not above being qustioned here. You have posted a lot of hard to believe things in the past. You speak with authority but no one here has any reason to believe you over others on this board.

The other poster has a track record of getting this info right. What do you have?

This is one of those little gems that killed your credibility with me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JK42 View Post
M6 is 8 minutes exactly on the Nordschleife. Not a track tool, like somebody already said. New M3 will definitely be faster. I place my bet on 7:4x given the current knowledge I have on it's tech specs.

Best regards,

Jussi
I will hold you to that statement when the cars come out.
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      02-17-2007, 09:53 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
I disagree with South here: One way to reconcile things is by judging the best/most reliable source. Scott26 and Martin Birkmann seem like darn good sources to me, both with BMW. A dealer can be knowledgable but is most often not. Scott26 and Martin have only chimed in about a release schedule not the SMG/6M/DSG thing...

OK, I have to say it: You're absolutely right 'bout this.


Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Logic:

South: If the recent mules in Europe are FEP cars and the car in Geneva will be 99% production what the heck will BWM be doing between March and September - 7 months? Let alone between March 06 and spring/summer 07??? Cars can be designed and brought to production today in about 18 months (GM and others, typically). Can BMW really take one FULL YEAR after Geneva (March 2007) to get this car to it's largest market, the US? I suspect design work began on E92 M3 in mid to late 2005. This would mean 2.5 years from begining of design to sale in largest market when the chasis has already been designed (most of the engine and probably tranny and diff as well). Just does not make any sense at all. It is always in the best interest of a company to get profits from sales of its products absolutely ASAP, assuming their own products don't compete.

History:

BMW claims it takes an M about 2 years to be introduced after the base model is introduced. Perhaps they get cars like the 328 designed and brought to production in 18 month but don't worry as much nor have the specialist (human) resources to get Ms to market at the same brisk pace. Someone needs to put together some time lines for E46 M3, E60 M5 and E63 M6 including dates of first spy photos, launch of non M base car, debuting shows and 1st EU and 1st US deliveries. Any volunteers? Come on Jussi - I know you can help big time with this one! I will make another post on this topic. I have looked for this informaton in the past but have found it quite hard to get it completely and accurately. Also the M5 may not be a particularly fair/representative example because I heard there were significant, late and unplanned delays from some problems (with production I think). I think this is why Scott26 always qualifies dates and says things like barring any unforseen problems and statements like that.

Well I'd hate to miss this car as well but if summer 2008 is the final factual US launch date I may be headed to P-car territory as well. That is for now but it would fade so fast! I know it doesn't do an ounce of good but, BMW - get moving or be prepared to loose my money and many others. A few others have already shared this exact senitment and some have acted and posted their bounty (e.g. mloyelo).
I did a qick search about M5 and M6.

M5:
Concept: Geneva '04
Press release of production car: July '04
Planned Europe launch: Fall '04
First european deliveries: April '05
First US deliveries: Oct '05

M6:
Press release: December '04
First european deliveries: April '05
First US deliveries: ~May '06

I did use information from m5board.com; I think it's possible that there were deliveries earlier than the above stated but the "trend" should be right.
So US introduction of M5 was 6 month after european. Sorry to say that.

Best regards, south
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      02-17-2007, 10:58 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by southlight View Post
The E90 M3 won't be launched before the general E90 facelift will be introduced. Facelift for E90 should come in fall '08. So fall 08 is also the earliest possible date for E90 M3. This should be for the european E90, don't know if there's another delay for the US!?

Best regards, south
Thanks for the encouraging info. If you're right, the timing for me would be almost perfect! Can't wait......
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      02-17-2007, 01:41 PM   #57
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Quote:
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Jussi...This is one of those little gems that killed your credibility with me. [referencing Jussi stating the new M3 will be quicker than the M6 on Nordschleife] I will hold you to that statement when the cars come out.
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You were the same one that told us in the past that the car was going to smoke the C6 z06 at the track. Sorry, you lost all your credibility here.
Enigma, I think you're missing something here. How do you pass judgement of credibility until something has actually been proven or shown true or false?? We don't actually know if the M6 or C6 will be slower than the new M3, so how the hell has he lost any credibility in his statements?? You might not agree with his opinion, but it has nothing to do with credibility. If in the past, Jussi has been PROVEN to be wrong in his original opinions, then his credibility should be a question. There's a difference.
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      02-17-2007, 03:15 PM   #58
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skipping around

BMW always skipped a whole production year before releasing a new car after a car has been discontinued.

The E46 M3 stopped production in June or July (I forgot which month exactly) my source on that was m3forum.net when I read it, I will do a search later when I get back home and find the quote for you guys. so the E46 M3 was out released by April right? If somebody can find the launch date of the E36 M3 and the Discontinue date of the E36 M3, Then I think we will know if Scott 26 is 100% correct...

Yea.. I'll search it when I get home
P.S. the ca cannot come out in May because it wouldnt even be a year yet even though I wish it would...

if any1 finds any info please post it on here
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      02-17-2007, 03:23 PM   #59
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That is pretty fair

Quote:
Originally Posted by REP1KRR View Post
Enema, I think you're missing something here. How do you pass judgement of credibility until something has actually been proven or shown true or false?? We don't actually know if the M6 or C6 will be slower than the new M3, so how the hell has he lost any credibility in his statements?? You might not agree with his opinion, but it has nothing to do with credibility. If in the past, Jussi has been PROVEN to be wrong in his original opinions, then his credibility should be a question. There's a difference.
Part of enigma's judgement was that most everyone agreed that physics is simply against any chance of E92 M3 besting Z06 on any track. I am with him on that point. If you use phyiscs you can tell the future. There is just no real possible combinations of power and weight that will push the new M3 that fast. Another part of the argument was on the effect of tires on lap times. Enigma (and others supporting/agreeing) totally won that point as well. I guess if you want to be 100% strict on not being able to know something until you see it then no one can say anyone is right or wrong yet. The other points that Jussi has lost credibility on are E92 M3 being likened to M3 GTR, new M3 having 450 hp and 9000 rpm redline. Again, I guess it ain't truly over until the fat lady sings but we can say these are probably incorrect with what we know now.

Following up on the history point.

E46 M3 History:
Concept car launch: Geneva, March 2000
1st EU deliveries: Dec 2000
1st US deliveries: Feb/Mar (?) 2001

E63 M6:
Debut: Geneva 2005

This makes the elapsed time from Geneva (March) to US delivery:
E46 M3: 12 months
E60 M5: 19 months
E63 M6: 14 months

History points to availability in the US early 2008 at best. However, there is a good bit of variation in the above numbers and a figure like 10 months would not be totally out of place on that list. US deliveries in late 2007 does not seem impossible!
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      02-17-2007, 03:33 PM   #60
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The last E46 M3 Coupés were built in late May 2006. I remember this because I was considering ordering one of the last cars with the CS kit back then with a discount that I was offered. I believe it was something like 25th of May when they cut it off. The Cabriolet followed few weeks later.

Best regards,

Jussi
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      02-17-2007, 06:49 PM   #61
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so using all this information we can kinda tell wen the E92 is comming out logically...
right?
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