BMW M3 Forum (E90 E92)

BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   M3Post - BMW M3 Forum > E90/E92 M3 Technical Topics > Engine, Transmission, Exhaust, Drivetrain, ECU Software Modifications
 
BPM Sport
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      03-03-2010, 11:15 AM   #45
ersin
Brigadier General
 
ersin's Avatar
 
Drives: 08 IB E92 M3
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Maryland

Posts: 3,685
iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by E92M3Guy View Post
Butt dyno doesn't do anything, but give you a placebo effect where the amount of money spent you feel it goes faster but it doesn't.
Yes, I think we all know that. But sometimes if I think its faster or responds better than I'm happy even if there is little to no performance gain. It seems the OP did this mod as much for appearance inside the engine bay as for performance. Maybe the next mod should be a transparent hood? j/k
__________________

I've been assimilated. 6MT/ZPP/18"/PS extended.
ersin is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      03-17-2010, 04:00 PM   #46
M3_LIN
LM-R Whore.
 
M3_LIN's Avatar
 
Drives: 2009 White M3 Sedan
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: LA

Posts: 858
iTrader: (1)

Send a message via AIM to M3_LIN Send a message via MSN to M3_LIN
Hey guys,

King at Tecnocraft had this to say. Just wanted everyone to be in the loop of things that Tecnocraft is trying to solve this issue and wants everyone's input:

"First of all, I definitely have to thank Alex@Gintani and Ed Lin for doing their own independent dyno sessions of the system (we also performed our initial dyno at Gintani, remember) and while it's true that Ed didn't dyno on his same day, I personally feel that our results with the system are just ALL OVER THE PLACE lately and just have to be settled to some kind of consistency and having more R&D thoughts presented informatively. I've had some time to mull over the results myself and Ed and I have personally been trying to arrange a complete once-over dyno session for the system, though his weekdays and weekend schedule still hasn't lined up to mine (yes, I'd have to definitely do this outside of company time on a weekend to help Ed out, but alas, I had an engagement and a zombie shoot over the last weekends since his dyno.) When I can though, I would not mind for Ed, he's been a trooper and a good friend through his dev time at Tecnocraft.

I've finally got an okay from management (and its budget) to get some things in order to really get down to business with our ENVY intake system... secondly, I haven't been active enough on the MFEST community and for that I personally apologize :\.

As it seems, the BMW ///M3 community is definitely calling for a few more independent dynos on the intake products (the whole system as well, but mainly the chargepipe). Besides the "fitment issues" that the team is currently exploring, there is more importantly the question of whether the intake system, including the intake manifold, makes legitimate power as well.

We would like to know (as much as you would like to know) if these systems simply "do or don't" make power and if the latter, then obviously we should be going back to the drawing board on a redesign. There has also been speculation of whether these systems will need to be specifically tuned to work as well and so we will be looking to solve this mystery.

I'm not the techie here, nor am I the Chief so I can't flatter anyone with explanations of venturi effects or AFRs, or IATs, and different dyno conditions, but what I can do is provide results and relay them to the community as truthfully as it is relayed to me by professionals. I, too, believe in attacking a problem with honesty. I would like to mention though, that the development team behind Tecnocraft is an extremely talented bunch, experts in their fields with developing form and functional products, especially with the dry carbon technology we're continuing to harness and perfect. We're optimistic (as we should be) but so be it if we need to continue our R&D on these products - this creativity in product development is obviously what keeps us ticking.

So...this week we're looking for a DynoJet and some test mules (you'll get your turn Ed, I'll keep pushing for it!). I also would like to collect thoughts on any procedures anyone would like to see in terms of testing our products out (i.e. with filter, just filter, complete system, just charge pipe, etc.). Is there a preferred majority testing method the community would like to see?

Thanks in advance."

thoughts everyone?

Ed Lin
__________________

09AWE90M: Light headlight tint, Full front end clear bra wrap(Harris@InstyleGraphics), Ceramic tint(40%), Piaa GTX H3 bulb, HID 8k AE, 6k Low, INT Luxer1 lights, RD springs, LMR 20X9 +8, 20X10 +18 (Dave @ Status), Vertice CF hood Ducts(Dat @ VertexUSA), Tecnocraft FULL Envy Intake system+plenum(KEVLAR)+cabin filter covers, Meister GTC exhaust, Arkym F LIP.
M3_LIN is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      03-17-2010, 05:12 PM   #47
Sal@Evolve
BimmerPost Supporting Vendor

 
Drives: Slow
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Luton, Bedfordshire

Posts: 1,055
iTrader: (0)

On the dyno dynamics software you can choose what scaling you want for both left and right axis. This does not in any way imply something wrong is going on.

The graphs will ONLY cross @ 5252rpm is the lb.ft and HP axis are set to exactly the same.

AFR target @ Full load is set in the 12's on a stock ECU....not 14's. 14.2 is the target for part load only.

M3's only make low HP if low octane fuel is used.

M3 power graph does not level off between 7000-8400rpm. The graphs shown are not the natural power graph of an M3 at high rpms. There could be many reasons for this - car strapped down way too hard (not saying it is!), very poor fuel being used, inadequate cooling being supplied or some other problem occuring.

S65 will make between 330-355 RWHP depending on the fuel used.

Air intakes such as this do not require tuning to make the best of them! ECU is way clever enough to recognise increased cylinder filling and therefore compensate for the fuelling.

I hugely doubt that this system is infact losing power.
Sal@Evolve is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      03-17-2010, 05:18 PM   #48
Sal@Evolve
BimmerPost Supporting Vendor

 
Drives: Slow
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Luton, Bedfordshire

Posts: 1,055
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by M3_LIN View Post
Hey guys,

King at Tecnocraft had this to say. Just wanted everyone to be in the loop of things that Tecnocraft is trying to solve this issue and wants everyone's input:

"First of all, I definitely have to thank Alex@Gintani and Ed Lin for doing their own independent dyno sessions of the system (we also performed our initial dyno at Gintani, remember) and while it's true that Ed didn't dyno on his same day, I personally feel that our results with the system are just ALL OVER THE PLACE lately and just have to be settled to some kind of consistency and having more R&D thoughts presented informatively. I've had some time to mull over the results myself and Ed and I have personally been trying to arrange a complete once-over dyno session for the system, though his weekdays and weekend schedule still hasn't lined up to mine (yes, I'd have to definitely do this outside of company time on a weekend to help Ed out, but alas, I had an engagement and a zombie shoot over the last weekends since his dyno.) When I can though, I would not mind for Ed, he's been a trooper and a good friend through his dev time at Tecnocraft.

I've finally got an okay from management (and its budget) to get some things in order to really get down to business with our ENVY intake system... secondly, I haven't been active enough on the MFEST community and for that I personally apologize :\.

As it seems, the BMW ///M3 community is definitely calling for a few more independent dynos on the intake products (the whole system as well, but mainly the chargepipe). Besides the "fitment issues" that the team is currently exploring, there is more importantly the question of whether the intake system, including the intake manifold, makes legitimate power as well.

We would like to know (as much as you would like to know) if these systems simply "do or don't" make power and if the latter, then obviously we should be going back to the drawing board on a redesign. There has also been speculation of whether these systems will need to be specifically tuned to work as well and so we will be looking to solve this mystery.

I'm not the techie here, nor am I the Chief so I can't flatter anyone with explanations of venturi effects or AFRs, or IATs, and different dyno conditions, but what I can do is provide results and relay them to the community as truthfully as it is relayed to me by professionals. I, too, believe in attacking a problem with honesty. I would like to mention though, that the development team behind Tecnocraft is an extremely talented bunch, experts in their fields with developing form and functional products, especially with the dry carbon technology we're continuing to harness and perfect. We're optimistic (as we should be) but so be it if we need to continue our R&D on these products - this creativity in product development is obviously what keeps us ticking.

So...this week we're looking for a DynoJet and some test mules (you'll get your turn Ed, I'll keep pushing for it!). I also would like to collect thoughts on any procedures anyone would like to see in terms of testing our products out (i.e. with filter, just filter, complete system, just charge pipe, etc.). Is there a preferred majority testing method the community would like to see?

Thanks in advance."

thoughts everyone?

Ed Lin
I don't think your system is losing power. The AFR's from the graphs are not so different to a stock car and the deviation of the AFR's is quite normal from one dyno run to another on a car which has had nothing done to it.

Testing on different days is not a good test anyway.

Very nice looking parts btw!
Sal@Evolve is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      03-19-2010, 01:04 PM   #49
M3_LIN
LM-R Whore.
 
M3_LIN's Avatar
 
Drives: 2009 White M3 Sedan
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: LA

Posts: 858
iTrader: (1)

Send a message via AIM to M3_LIN Send a message via MSN to M3_LIN
It looks like King@tecnocraft is doing some more dynos and will be posting that info either this week or next. Here is his posting from Mfest forum:

Just got back from multiple back-to-back dyno tests this week on the system with very interesting, but explainable results.

"The testing was done independently at Autowave, Inc. (Huntington Beach) with two ///M owners, strangers, I've never met before in my life who had volunteered for dyno testing of the complete ENVY intake system. I have to personally thank Mike@Autowave, also a first time meet) for all of his insight and expertise on the dyno, hints, tips, tricks, explanations and exhaustive experience on his DYNODYNAMICS (he has been dyno'ing since 2001).

Another shout out to Betim@BBI for personally observing the installs, performing the install on one vehicle himself for his very first time, and to provide support as the shop next door. Another shout out to Mitch@FamousAuto for his observance on other dyno days with the system as well. All of us, including shop foreman, tuners and customers went over procedures together as to both make efficient use of dyno time at every location this intake system has been dyno'd on.

As a welcome, PowerChip had decided to throw themselves into the frying pan with tuning development on top of the intake system in vital stages since the community was also calling for some type of tuning development and had "what if's" about pairing the system with tunes. Interesting results were found here as well.

I would like to throw out a few things for myself:

-I've personally now observed at least 65+ hours of dyno development time with multiple E9X ///M3s, with every variation of ENVY intake system possible from its first dyno to its last.
-I'm doing my best to provide non-biased feedback of the system, even when all of you know I'm Tecnocraft PR. I'm also not shy on the dyno and completely love public interaction with the intake system, surrounded by the car owners, observers, independent shop management. I am striving to provide internal, yet independent thoughts on an intake system Tecnocraft makes, and if I'm able to answer any questions, shoot at me and I'll do the best with what I've picked up.
-Every single dyno I've seen the ENVY system perform on has been on a DYNODYNAMICS for consistency, yes the heartbreaker, load-bearing dyno. Again, I have to thank and completely appreciate Alex@Gintani and Mike@Autowave for their time and overtime on their own dynos - they could literally care less about what the intake system does and have NO PROBLEMS voicing their opinions about an NA upgrade!
-I'm very, very sleepy. The Tecnocraft mug has been filled twice since this post.
-I've also been recommended by nearly everyone to observe the cars doing 60-130mphs with 'VBoxes' and 'BavTech' cables...so we're not completely done yet, which is a plus.

I'll be compiling the data to be presentable and understandable in the next few days, so I'm definitely going to be pulling the patience rope on the community. The feedback from customers, shop foreman that we've dealt with, tuners, and our own dev guys have to ALL make sense in complete review of this performance system. I foresee myself sitting in a conference room for hours trying to go through all my notes..."

Ed Lin
__________________

09AWE90M: Light headlight tint, Full front end clear bra wrap(Harris@InstyleGraphics), Ceramic tint(40%), Piaa GTX H3 bulb, HID 8k AE, 6k Low, INT Luxer1 lights, RD springs, LMR 20X9 +8, 20X10 +18 (Dave @ Status), Vertice CF hood Ducts(Dat @ VertexUSA), Tecnocraft FULL Envy Intake system+plenum(KEVLAR)+cabin filter covers, Meister GTC exhaust, Arkym F LIP.
M3_LIN is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      03-24-2010, 04:53 PM   #50
M3_LIN
LM-R Whore.
 
M3_LIN's Avatar
 
Drives: 2009 White M3 Sedan
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: LA

Posts: 858
iTrader: (1)

Send a message via AIM to M3_LIN Send a message via MSN to M3_LIN
Hey guys,

Just saw this from the L4P post.

"FYI - some important past links that'll get you up to speed:
http://www.luxury4play.com/bmw/38725...ke-system.html
Tecnocraft E9X ///M3 Envy? Intake System

----

Alright everyone, I've attached all the dynos and will quickly describe each one to the best of my knowledge. Forum members 'Vic55' (DCT tranny) and 'Sinajoon' (6SPD tranny) were the testers of the ENVY intake systems on two separate days on their otherwise completely stock intake E92 M3s, but each dyno was baselined and performed on the same day in straight through sessions. If anyone has any questions directed to these guys or PowerChip or something I can forward to the Tecno team outside of the knowledge of this dyno, please let us know here.

Location: AutoWave, Huntington Beach, CA. - a big thanks to Mike@Autowave for his time, knowledge, and downright patience! Highly recommended place to get things dialed in and tested. By all means, please visit the place to cross reference any dynographs and to ask Mike for his opinions on how both dyno sessions went. It was agreed that the load-bearing DYNO DYNAMICS was as true-to-life as it could get.

Prologue:
I also want to reaffirm that before our dyno days, I've never met either of them in my life, though by now common ground, they are PowerChip customers. I met Vic through him being good friends with Betim @ BBi, but also that he's been an advocate of PC for some time now. Sina was a chosen recommendation through PowerChip as a development vehicle for e92 M3 chiptuning first, and*secondly,*through great timing he worked out well for when testing our own Tecnocraft Envy system on a BONE STOCK with an intake matched tune on top of the intake. BOTH of them had Macht Schnell filters. On Vic's car, the replacement of the M&S filter with the BMC filter netted negligible differences to horsepower...at the end of the day, he just left with the BMC anyway.

On the first day, Vic's M3 came in already tuned (found out the day we met, but that's fine), but with RPi scoops. In fairness to the ENVY system, we baselined the car "stock" by removing the RPi scoops with Betim's help because the Tecnocraft ENVY has RAM AIR scoops. This is what we considered a true baseline after much thought. I don't remember exactly his modlist, but he's had a few things done, hence his tuned car.

On the second PowerChip day, PowerChip was able to achieve a tune off of a baseline, a tune off of the manifold itself, a tuned intake system itself (4 main pieces), and a tuned intake system plus manifold complete. Since we were able to tune the components to the car, Vic's car (at a future scheduled time) can be dialed in to accept the system as well, hopefully to negate any losses.

Results (downloadable charts HERE):


On "Sina_M3_CPvStock.jpg" (image name), we netted a positive gain in the installation of the chargepipe - there's also more air as noted in AFRs, so there was room to dial in some gains with an intake system tuned. But overall, in Sina's bone stock car, it liked the addition of the chargepipe. This is a comparison of the best baseline we had, versus the best chargepipe run we had. According to this scale, the chargepipe gets 6.5HP between 6200-6900rpm, and same kind of spread at peak, 8300+rpm.


On "Sina_M3_Baseline_TC Full SystemNoMan_FinalTune.jpg", we used that same highest peak baseline dyno and ran it against the best that the Tecnocraft ENVY System could get without a tune, the gains are considerably negligible on top of the chargepipe. We gain maybe +1.5-2HP up top at 8300+, but more or less, we're starting to see a negative effect of too much air into the system because at some areas, the chargepipe alone netted more gains (4000RPMs and lower). The maximum achieved horsepower in the day was seen in tc fullsystem+mani+pwrchip tune (which is the same as bills tune, renamed) which is all components installed including the manifold, tuned in to what Sina's car particularly likes in order to achieve max HP (if anyone asks about AFRs). I'll let PC chime in on this one and provide me with official statements since they tuned the car and this was how it achieved the gains. This maximum HP result is a complete PC-tuned Tecnocraft Envy Intake System including the manifold.


In "Sina_M3_TCMan_Baseline_FinalTune.jpg",*As the day went on, we performed another baseline for consistency BEFORE installation of the TC Manifold (red) / TC Manifold tuned (purple) runs, and we were extremely happy to report Sina's car running flawlessly during the whole day, yielding good baseline runs (blue line, stock m3, they're off at peak by 1-2hp). This is just comparing the manifold BY ITSELF versus stock, the manifold+tuning versus stock, and the entire equipped system+manifold to stock. The manifold netted gains much like the addition of the ChargePipe in the 6200-6900rpm area, but netted even more gains when tuned to the car, flattened out the AFRs to 13 too (similarly to Vics). Curiously, though, PowerChip's tune (even though it's named bill's tune for some reason) configured Sina's car with maximum horsepower gains with the entire system installed+manifold but had the richest AFR - again will leave to PC explain this one, but "bills tune" is a curve of the entire intake system+manifold tuned to the M3 for comparison purposes.


In the dyno, "Vic55_M3_Final_Scoops", interestingly enough, although his car netted a LOSS on the chargepipe installation by itself. Remember all his baselines now are without the RPi scoops, so he's "bone stock" as far as intake systems go. But with just the addition of the Ram Air Scoops, we netted the gains in HP and a good amount of torque as the car revved up (4100+). Vic's car did NOT like the Chargepipe the moment it was added, and can arguably be explained by having his car extremely dialed in to the setup he had. I could see why the scoops would work in a dialed in car, since it's helping to direct that fan air smoothly into the OEM system as it needs the airflow and speed - air volume isn't particularly increased with the RAM AIR scoops, but rather an easier attainable hi-flow inlet of cold air, my thoughts. Again, this graph is ONLY the ram air scoops + OEM. PowerChip states that the complete ENVY system can be dialed in accordingly when the time comes for a retune or if Vic is up for it.


On "VIc55_M3_Final.jpg", it was a bit frustrating because any combination we tried WITH the chargepipe netted a loss. Vic decided to just keep the ChargePipe out and leave the scoops, boxcover, and transition pipe in and voila, power came back to the system. We had to run this a few configurations just to see this happen consistently and it really, really irked me to accept, but that's okay. I felt in the end that comparing a chipped car vs. bone stock car was very important in these tests. Running the full system without the chargepipe achieved maximum horsepower of the day and maximum horsepower over stock. The netted gain in this scenario, is just 1.3HP more than the maximum the ENVY ram air scoops gained by themselves - without additional tuning.

--------

I'd like thoughts and responses that add towards a dyno discussion of these products (I'll start a troubleshoot thread elsewhere if/when I can on any other issues). I hope that anyone even remotely interested in ANY intake system on ANY platform would be proud, crazy enough, and/or extremely thick skinned to have their products scrutinizingly tested with results displayed "rain" or "shine" in all types of combinations and scenarios. And I'm happy to be involved as a field rep for the Tecnocraft product to report these findings as independently as I possibly can. By all means, I am again urging anyone wanting to baseline and compare their E92s to the Tecnocraft ENVY Intake System at either of these two OUTSTANDING facilities for base comparisons:

Alex@Gintani - DYNODYNAMICS
Mike@Autowave - DYNODYNAMICS

These guys are both honest and reputable people who can pull up these graphs at any time for you.

Notes on future testing:

Sina has a "VBOX" and PC can supply the "BavTech" cables so we can do the 60-130s, or record IATs, whatnot... if theyre all up for it, I would love to test these too as a "Part 2" to the tests."

Ed Lin
__________________

09AWE90M: Light headlight tint, Full front end clear bra wrap(Harris@InstyleGraphics), Ceramic tint(40%), Piaa GTX H3 bulb, HID 8k AE, 6k Low, INT Luxer1 lights, RD springs, LMR 20X9 +8, 20X10 +18 (Dave @ Status), Vertice CF hood Ducts(Dat @ VertexUSA), Tecnocraft FULL Envy Intake system+plenum(KEVLAR)+cabin filter covers, Meister GTC exhaust, Arkym F LIP.
M3_LIN is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:20 AM.




m3post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST