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      03-20-2010, 06:48 PM   #1
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Dollar Value of 4 Year Maintenance Program

I'm researching whether or not to import a '10 E92 from the US. If I do, I'd loose the 4 year free maintenance according to BWM Canada, so need to know what it will cost me to service the car without it, and add it to the cost of importation.

Anyone have a general idea ? (general wear items are obviously a wild card)

I have searched and can't find estimates for the Canada or US programs.

Thx.
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      03-20-2010, 07:48 PM   #2
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I do not think you will find the answer here on this forum.You need to call a dealer & find out what the labour times & parts cost for each service.This is also variable if you are a low milege driver as the service is required once a year not based on milege.I would probally think it is worth $3-4000 if you are a 20000 km a year driver.Remember it does not cover any of the wear items like brakes,wiper blades etc.

Also do not forget that a US car will have less resale value than a Canadian origin car.I have a clients 06 C2S that is worth $10000 less than a Canadian sourced car with the same milege.It is something that must be factored in in your importation costs.
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      03-20-2010, 08:01 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gearhead999s View Post
I do not think you will find the answer here on this forum.You need to call a dealer & find out what the labour times & parts cost for each service.This is also variable if you are a low milege driver as the service is required once a year not based on milege.I would probally think it is worth $3-4000 if you are a 20000 km a year driver.Remember it does not cover any of the wear items like brakes,wiper blades etc.

Also do not forget that a US car will have less resale value than a Canadian origin car.I have a clients 06 C2S that is worth $10000 less than a Canadian sourced car with the same milege.It is something that must be factored in in your importation costs.
Thanks Gear - I was going to ask my current SA at my local dealer but he's been on holiday. I'll have him track it down for me on his return, or maybe some else on here has done the leg work already.

Why the comparative lower value on the US car upon resale in Canada? Once I do the cluster, daytime running lights, Cdn VIR etc would it not be an apples to apples situation? Or is it just a perception issue by the buyer?


Thx
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      03-20-2010, 08:17 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Meff View Post
Thanks Gear - I was going to ask my current SA at my local dealer but he's been on holiday. I'll have him track it down for me on his return, or maybe some else on here has done the leg work already.

Why the comparative lower value on the US car upon resale in Canada? Once I do the cluster, daytime running lights, Cdn VIR etc would it not be an apples to apples situation? Or is it just a perception issue by the buyer?


Thx
It is very hard to track the true history of non-Ontario car and you have no recourse on a US car if it is not what you beleived it is.I have had problems like this the past with a couple of high end cars that I brought up from the US.Since January OMVIC also requires full disclosure on cars that have not been in Ontario for 7years(?) and this will be a resale issue down the road for resale values.

Last edited by Gearhead999s; 03-20-2010 at 08:37 PM.
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      03-20-2010, 08:55 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gearhead999s View Post
It is very hard to track the true history of non-Ontario car and you have no recourse on a US car if it is not what you beleived it is.I have had problems like this the past with a couple of high end cars that I brought up from the US.Since January OMVIC also requires full disclosure on cars that have not been in Ontario for 7years(?) and this will be a resale issue down the road for resale values.
I'm on the left coast and the car will be new, so first registration will be on Cdn soil. Not sure BC's rules on the disclosure piece, but if I'm first owner, hopefully this will negate any issues on history.

I hear you though - it's an unknown and a possible perception issue for a future buyer.

I'm weighing all the pros and cons - it's just hard to overlook the savings even after the import and conversion costs, and the fact that I can't find an M3 in Western Canada I want other than the Editions and they are overpriced.

There are literally hundreds (500 + on a search today) of new '10s on BMW dealer lots throughout the US so the selection is much better, and my impatience is getting the better of me.

I'll have to work on that
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      03-21-2010, 02:33 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gearhead999s View Post
I do not think you will find the answer here on this forum.You need to call a dealer & find out what the labour times & parts cost for each service.This is also variable if you are a low milege driver as the service is required once a year not based on milege.I would probally think it is worth $3-4000 if you are a 20000 km a year driver.Remember it does not cover any of the wear items like brakes,wiper blades etc.

Also do not forget that a US car will have less resale value than a Canadian origin car.I have a clients 06 C2S that is worth $10000 less than a Canadian sourced car with the same milege.It is something that must be factored in in your importation costs.
+ 1

He is right! Heres another post of mine in a similar thread where this was discussed extensively.

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showpos...0&postcount=28

Also, remember you can always get the extended maintenance plan in Canada which is an additional $2000 for M3s that covers you up to 5yrs/96,000KM, and will cover all WEAR and TEAR items!!!
http://www.bmw.ca/ca/en/owners/servi...rt_only_EN.pdf
(BRAKES, CLUTCH, BELTS, wiper blades etc.)

This wont be applicable on US imported cars

You have to understand that the savings of 10-20K or whatever it is, can only be realised on a vehicle after you are able to recover those costs once resale occurs.
Otherwise your initial savings are translated into poor resale, and for all that hassle and points mentioned in my post isnt worth it

Good Luck!
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      03-21-2010, 11:38 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 vert View Post
+ 1

He is right! Heres another post of mine in a similar thread where this was discussed extensively.

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showpos...0&postcount=28


Also, remember you can always get the extended maintenance plan in Canada which is an additional $2000 for M3s that covers you up to 5yrs/96,000KM, and will cover all WEAR and TEAR items!!!
http://www.bmw.ca/ca/en/owners/servi...rt_only_EN.pdf
(BRAKES, CLUTCH, BELTS, wiper blades etc.)

This wont be applicable on US imported cars

You have to understand that the savings of 10-20K or whatever it is, can only be realised on a vehicle after you are able to recover those costs once resale occurs.
Otherwise your initial savings are translated into poor resale, and for all that hassle and points mentioned in my post isnt worth it

Good Luck!
Thx Vert - I guess the intangible piece here is the effect to resale value then. Your list of importation "To Dos" from the other thread match what I have been able to determine as well.

Rough math:

$2700 - conversion costs
$4000 - $4300 Duty on Cdn $$ value
$3000 - no longer "free maintenance"

$10,000 total import costs
----------------------------------------------------------------
$75,000 - US car at converted CDN $ List (assuming dollar at .99 or par)
-$ 7,500 - standard US discount (based on other US members buys)

$67,500 - purchase price

+

$10,000 - Importation costs (including paying for maintenance)
$ 1,000 - shipping/transport

So call it $78,500 - $80,000 CDN to me - then add in the uncertainty of resale

Not much of a savings - more of a way to get a car more quickly, but it may not be worth the added hassle I agree, it's just the impatience thing again....

Thanks again for the feedback guys - this is why I joined the forum to do my research for my M

Appreciate it.

The search continues.....
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      03-21-2010, 11:49 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Meff View Post
Thx Vert - I guess the intangible piece here is the effect to resale value then. Your list of importation "To Dos" from the other thread match what I have been able to determine as well.

Rough math:

$2700 - conversion costs
$4000 - $4300 Duty on Cdn $$ value
$3000 - no longer "free maintenance"

$10,000 total import costs
----------------------------------------------------------------
$75,000 - US car at converted CDN $ List (assuming dollar at .99 or par)
-$ 7,500 - standard US discount (based on other US members buys)

$67,500 - purchase price

+

$10,000 - Importation costs (including paying for maintenance)
$ 1,000 - shipping/transport

So call it $78,500 - $80,000 CDN to me - then add in the uncertainty of resale

Not much of a savings - more of a way to get a car more quickly, but it may not be worth the added hassle I agree, it's just the impatience thing again....

Thanks again for the feedback guys - this is why I joined the forum to do my research for my M

Appreciate it.

The search continues.....
Why not order an 11 and get exactly what you want.My wifes new 2011 E93 335is will be here the last week of April.
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      03-21-2010, 12:47 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gearhead999s View Post
Why not order an 11 and get exactly what you want.My wifes new 2011 E93 335is will be here the last week of April.
I've always been a used car guy I guess. I just hate the first 1-2 years of big depreciation on new. I started looking for early lease returns or dealer demos but I couldn't find any.

That's when I started looking stateside and that took me to the '10 new US based option.

I figured that the '10s that are still on dealer lots are getting cheaper by the day with the '11 on the way, so the leverage for a deal was approaching that of a demo with a few miles on it.

I haven't even priced out the '11 yet - not sure if I want to go that route or not.

You know, buying a Camry would be a hell of a lot easier....
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      03-21-2010, 02:44 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Meff View Post
$2700 - conversion costs
$4000 - $4300 Duty on Cdn $$ value
$3000 - no longer "free maintenance"
Ok, there is a lot of confusion and misinformation and confusion on this forum. I imported two BMWs in the last 12 months, so I have a bit of experience. First, there is NO conversion cost, unless for some reason you want to do it. Inspections accepts modern BMWs without modifications. Also, please do not pay for Recall clearance letter - ask the seller to give it to you (service history will work just as well) or make few calls to US dealers and get one of them to give it to you for free. Worked for me - 2 out of 2.

Second, duty is 6.1%, so it may be a bit higher than what you mentioned.

Regarding the loss of free maintenance - I am not sure what level of maintenance comes at no extra cost with M3 in Canada, but I believe it includes very little - like one oil change a year. Does it includes brakes & rotors? Belts? The car imported from the US has free maintenance that also includes brakes, rotors and belts (in the US). The rumors about US dealers refusing to honor free maintenance on Canadian-registered US-spec cars are NOT TRUE - I called BMW NA office and a regional dealer in US and both confirmed that.

Although most people would not drive to US to get their free oil changes, it may very well be worth a drive to get free pads + rotors (and you can get oil changed at the same time ). So depending on how close you are to the border, US car may actually be a benefit in terms of free maintenance!

Finally, about not being able to see complete vehicle history for cars from outside of Ontario. Maybe I am missing something, and let me know if I am, but this looks like a complete FUD. You can still do carfax, request warranty service record and you still have all the title history for USA and Canada - what else do you need? Essentially, a person buying a US car in Canada has exactly the same amount of information about the car as the person buying the same car in the USA. Email, fax and internet penetrate Ontario borders just fine . It may take few more phone calls to get the info.

Regarding the resale - it depends. There are people that panic when they hear it is a US car, and there are people who do not care, especially if the car is older than 2-3 years. So sale may take longer, cause you will need to filter out the "xenophobes" who think all non-canadian cars come with blown engines and other nonsense, but normal people will see that cars are pretty much the same and will pay the same. Trading the car in will result in lower valuation, though - dealers make sure to use this excuse to screw you even more. Still, you will be reselling an older and thus much cheaper car, so loss, if any, should be much smaller than the gain.

So do not be afraid. Talk to people who done it - I've done my research and never met anyone regretting it.

Last edited by MaxL; 03-21-2010 at 02:53 PM.
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      03-21-2010, 02:57 PM   #11
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PM me your # - I would like to call you to discuss!!

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      03-21-2010, 05:36 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxL View Post
Ok, there is a lot of confusion and misinformation and confusion on this forum. I imported two BMWs in the last 12 months, so I have a bit of experience. First, there is NO conversion cost, unless for some reason you want to do it. Inspections accepts modern BMWs without modifications. Also, please do not pay for Recall clearance letter - ask the seller to give it to you (service history will work just as well) or make few calls to US dealers and get one of them to give it to you for free. Worked for me - 2 out of 2.

Second, duty is 6.1%, so it may be a bit higher than what you mentioned.

Regarding the loss of free maintenance - I am not sure what level of maintenance comes at no extra cost with M3 in Canada, but I believe it includes very little - like one oil change a year. Does it includes brakes & rotors? Belts? The car imported from the US has free maintenance that also includes brakes, rotors and belts (in the US). The rumors about US dealers refusing to honor free maintenance on Canadian-registered US-spec cars are NOT TRUE - I called BMW NA office and a regional dealer in US and both confirmed that.

Although most people would not drive to US to get their free oil changes, it may very well be worth a drive to get free pads + rotors (and you can get oil changed at the same time ). So depending on how close you are to the border, US car may actually be a benefit in terms of free maintenance!

Finally, about not being able to see complete vehicle history for cars from outside of Ontario. Maybe I am missing something, and let me know if I am, but this looks like a complete FUD. You can still do carfax, request warranty service record and you still have all the title history for USA and Canada - what else do you need? Essentially, a person buying a US car in Canada has exactly the same amount of information about the car as the person buying the same car in the USA. Email, fax and internet penetrate Ontario borders just fine . It may take few more phone calls to get the info.

Regarding the resale - it depends. There are people that panic when they hear it is a US car, and there are people who do not care, especially if the car is older than 2-3 years. So sale may take longer, cause you will need to filter out the "xenophobes" who think all non-canadian cars come with blown engines and other nonsense, but normal people will see that cars are pretty much the same and will pay the same. Trading the car in will result in lower valuation, though - dealers make sure to use this excuse to screw you even more. Still, you will be reselling an older and thus much cheaper car, so loss, if any, should be much smaller than the gain.

So do not be afraid. Talk to people who done it - I've done my research and never met anyone regretting it.
Carfax is far from being very reliable source of information and this also applies to the systems that are in use Ontario.The big problem with these systems is that it reports only what was reported in the system to the data base.if a customer smucks up his car & it is a cash repair,that is outside the system.I had this happen with a client who picked up a car in WV that it turned later had over $50000 damage that been paid cash.He noticed some issues and had the car checked out & discoved improper repairs that were unreported.He researched further and found out where the car was repaired by searching the Porsche parts database by serial #.He had zero recourse because he was a Canadian buying a car in the US.
I am not saying you cannot find a good US car,but is all the time & due diligence worth the effort with maybe marginial total gains!
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      03-21-2010, 06:09 PM   #13
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To the previous poster - would there be any different recourse if he was a US resident buying a car in the US or a Canadian resident buying a car in Canada? If not, this makes no difference. A Canadian can sue a US dealership or a US person just as well, if there is a reason to (which may not help, actually, because used cars are sold "as is" both in US and Canada). I am not saying that buying a used car can be risk-free - there is always some risk.
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      03-21-2010, 07:06 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxL View Post
To the previous poster - would there be any different recourse if he was a US resident buying a car in the US or a Canadian resident buying a car in Canada? If not, this makes no difference. A Canadian can sue a US dealership or a US person just as well, if there is a reason to (which may not help, actually, because used cars are sold "as is" both in US and Canada). I am not saying that buying a used car can be risk-free - there is always some risk.
Really?

Sue eh?

Firstly, everyone thinks they can sue anyone here dont they

You have to understand that going down that road over lets say a used vehicle is worth it or not, after taking into account:
1. Costs - Good Lawyers are never cheap and demand a high fee!
2. Time - spent in importing and then dealing with litigation in international courts
3. All this effort for a few thousand to 10,000?

As a wise businessman I would reduce my risk and buy canadian!
And I would devote my time and efforts to better and more profitable things then chasing after US dealers for a few thousand dollars
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      03-21-2010, 07:14 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxL View Post
To the previous poster - would there be any different recourse if he was a US resident buying a car in the US or a Canadian resident buying a car in Canada? If not, this makes no difference. A Canadian can sue a US dealership or a US person just as well, if there is a reason to (which may not help, actually, because used cars are sold "as is" both in US and Canada). I am not saying that buying a used car can be risk-free - there is always some risk.
Yeah try and see what a headache it becomes.In Canada (at least in Ontario)we have protection from the goverment against misrepresentation from registered automobile dealers,but in the US you are on your own unless you get involved in the legal crap.For a few $ it is just not worth it as I do not have enough time to do everything I need to do.
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      03-21-2010, 07:19 PM   #16
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Never hurts to build some rapport at a local dealer, especially if you plan to buy the same marque in the future. I know for certain that buying 3 cars from the same dealer (and person for that matter) in the last 4 years as certainly been advantageous to myself and helped me with service matters and loaners. Not to mention referring a few friends etc.
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      03-21-2010, 08:16 PM   #17
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Quote:
Ok, there is a lot of confusion and misinformation and confusion on this forum. I imported two BMWs in the last 12 months, so I have a bit of experience. First, there is NO conversion cost, unless for some reason you want to do it. Inspections accepts modern BMWs without modifications. Also, please do not pay for Recall clearance letter - ask the seller to give it to you (service history will work just as well) or make few calls to US dealers and get one of them to give it to you for free. Worked for me - 2 out of 2.
I talked to VIR and they told me for a '10 M3 I had to make the changes

Quote:
Second, duty is 6.1%, so it may be a bit higher than what you mentioned.
I used this % based on $67 - 70K cost for car


Quote:
Regarding the loss of free maintenance - I am not sure what level of maintenance comes at no extra cost with M3 in Canada, but I believe it includes very little - like one oil change a year. Does it includes brakes & rotors? Belts? The car imported from the US has free maintenance that also includes brakes, rotors and belts (in the US). The rumors about US dealers refusing to honor free maintenance on Canadian-registered US-spec cars are NOT TRUE - I called BMW NA office and a regional dealer in US and both confirmed that.

Although most people would not drive to US to get their free oil changes, it may very well be worth a drive to get free pads + rotors (and you can get oil changed at the same time ). So depending on how close you are to the border, US car may actually be a benefit in terms of free maintenance!
I live 20 minutes from the border and have been issued a Nexus pass as I travel stateside often so this is a viable option for me. Certainly not as convenient as a local dealer, but hey, life is short.

Quote:
Finally, about not being able to see complete vehicle history for cars from outside of Ontario. Maybe I am missing something, and let me know if I am, but this looks like a complete FUD. You can still do carfax, request warranty service record and you still have all the title history for USA and Canada - what else do you need? Essentially, a person buying a US car in Canada has exactly the same amount of information about the car as the person buying the same car in the USA. Email, fax and internet penetrate Ontario borders just fine . It may take few more phone calls to get the info.
Only considering new '10 so a non issue

Quote:
Regarding the resale - it depends. There are people that panic when they hear it is a US car, and there are people who do not care, especially if the car is older than 2-3 years. So sale may take longer, cause you will need to filter out the "xenophobes" who think all non-canadian cars come with blown engines and other nonsense, but normal people will see that cars are pretty much the same and will pay the same. Trading the car in will result in lower valuation, though - dealers make sure to use this excuse to screw you even more. Still, you will be reselling an older and thus much cheaper car, so loss, if any, should be much smaller than the gain.
After lurking around here for a few weeks prior to joining, I have contracted the mod bug to the point that I think I'll have much bigger issues affecting my resale than the fact that it might be a US based car.

Thanks for your input Max
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      03-21-2010, 08:19 PM   #18
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PM me your # - I would like to call you to discuss!!

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      03-21-2010, 08:37 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 vert View Post
Really?

Sue eh?

Firstly, everyone thinks they can sue anyone here dont they

You have to understand that going down that road over lets say a used vehicle is worth it or not, after taking into account:
1. Costs - Good Lawyers are never cheap and demand a high fee!
2. Time - spent in importing and then dealing with litigation in international courts
3. All this effort for a few thousand to 10,000?

As a wise businessman I would reduce my risk and buy canadian!
And I would devote my time and efforts to better and more profitable things then chasing after US dealers for a few thousand dollars
I am not chasing US dealers, I am just researching this as 1 of several options like a good business man so I can make an intelligent decision if it is viable or not. I am still in the middle of figuring that out and that's why I started this thread.

I purchase a lot of goods for my business in the US and it is very natural for me to look there for a car as well.

Your input and everyone else's on here is greatly appreciated - I find it even more helpful when people disagree on issues in this forum as it seem more information comes out that way.

Thx.
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      03-21-2010, 08:57 PM   #20
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Regarding modifications - few years ago a new law was passed specifically to reduce the amount of modifications required - it accepts clusters showing both miles and km and US-standard bumpers (which are softer). The only thing that '10 M3 would not pass is DRL (you should not be able to disable it, which you can on US car). But as far as I know they do not check it during the inspection. So if you turn on DRLs in the computer before the inspection, you will very likely pass without any modifications (I did, and several other people on the forum did as well: http://www.e90post.com/forums/showpo...8&postcount=19). If you do not pass, there is no penalty AFAIK, and they will tell you exactly what needs to be changed, so you may end up making less changes than you planed (e.g. no change to cluster but only DRL reprogram). My point is try to pass the inspection before you modify anything.

Last edited by MaxL; 03-21-2010 at 09:07 PM.
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      03-21-2010, 09:05 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gearhead999s View Post
In Canada (at least in Ontario)we have protection from the goverment against misrepresentation from registered automobile dealers,but in the US you are on your own unless you get involved in the legal crap.
I did not know about additional legal protection in Ontario. Maybe it is worth something.

By the way, when buying used from States, consider using ebay - their protection policy is fairly decent and covers you up to $50k in case the car history is significantly misrepresented (e.g. rebuilt or stolen car).

Yes, savings from buying from US are not always worth it. For me they were, as the first time I could import car duty and tax free, which changes the game entirely. And the second time I just could not find what I wanted at any price in Canada, and I was looking for two months.
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      03-21-2010, 09:46 PM   #22
tyrewt
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MaxL is right, there no longer is a "conversion cost". That was just a tactic to keep value in the Canadian market when the CDN dollar was on par last year. US cars have both metric and imperial speedometer so no need for the instrument panel swap.

Obviously some of these guys commenting in this thread WORK for dealers selling cars in Canada and are going to try convincing you to buy in Canada. There are significant savings buying in the USA.

True Canadian dealers will not honor the maintenance, but they will the warranty. So what, so you miss out on 2 free oil changes? Bring the car down to the US for inspection II.

Anyone that suggests a US car will be worthless in Canada when selling is just blowing smoke up your rear-end. ALL cars depreciate, it's not an investment! No doubt somebody will buy it, just as you did. You'll also be able to offer it lower as to paid less.

Read this current thread from another importer. http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=360292

Last edited by tyrewt; 03-21-2010 at 09:52 PM.
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