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      02-08-2007, 08:32 PM   #155
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Originally Posted by dr325i View Post
Entirely appropriate to cross into the Syrian or Iranian side???
So, that would not be against any int'l rules?
WOW, do it...the world needs to end the way it is anyway...
If forces that target American, Iraqi, or coalition forces receive equipment, training, or safe haven in Iran or Syria, striking those places would not violate any international laws that I am aware of.
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      02-08-2007, 09:28 PM   #156
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How long will that take???????

I think you know the answer, and its not in a couple of months. So bearing this in mind, I think its reasonable to say that it will take 10+ years. Are the American people ready to sink that much money and effort? Whats the US deficit to date?
I learned a long time ago never to estimate how long it takes Arabs to complete a negotiation. I suspect that 2-3 years may be necessary but I who knows. I sincerely hope that the American people will do whatever is necessary to win, as it is we have at least until Jan 20, 2009.

As for the cost, thank you for your concern but I think we can afford it. We are currently spending between 3.5 - 4% of our GDP on defense. This is low by historical standards and a fraction of previous wars.

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Yes, you may want to do this, but I don't think the rest of the world would view this as appropriate. How about technical information crossing over boarders that threaten the US. Like for example the information being shared with North Korea, are you saying that the US need to address this also?

As much as you want to strike at Iran and Syria, YOU DONT HAVE THE NUMBERS OR MONEY TO DO SO....period! Unless you want to have China do it! Good luck convincing them.
It depends on what type of technical information you are referring to. Does it pose a real and present danger to US or allied forces? Are there alternate methods to interdict?

What makes you think we do not have sufficient forces available to conduct strikes such as I described?

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How many in a brigade? Not being sarcastic, I really don't know.
How many brigades in Iraq now? How many do you need for the suggestion of attacking Syria and Iran?

EDIT: I looked it up and that equates to about 3-5 thousand in a brigade. Two brigades is only half of what Bush suggested to congress not to long ago.
Brigade size varies by what type of brigade it is but 4,000 is a good working figure. The current plan calls for a Marine Expeditionary Unit (MEU) (roughly the size of an Army Brigade) to extend in al Anbar to increase the forces there. I think an additional brigade size element may be necessary but I am not on the ground there.

The strikes I mentioned against Iran and Syria would probably be limited to air strikes or raids by special operations forces.
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      02-08-2007, 09:35 PM   #157
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If forces that target American, Iraqi, or coalition forces receive equipment, training, or safe haven in Iran or Syria, striking those places would not violate any international laws that I am aware of.
it would clearly violate International laws...maybe not US re-written laws -- no laws. When we act there are no laws to respect... Iraq, Serbia,...

How isn't it against the law to strike an inch of a sovereign country???

If there was a sniper on the US side shooting to the canadian side....for example. You think it would be completely legal for Canadians to shoot the tomahawk accross the border to wibe him off...and "accidentally" take a few more innocent with him???

Ridiculous...
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      02-08-2007, 09:38 PM   #158
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NK

WOW, negotiating with NK???!!! What is all that about???
Let me guess -- we're stretched so thin (THANK GOD!) and realized that 1M soldiers is too much to handle, so we resorted to diplomacy... Should have been done in Iraq, too.

That tells me one thing -- it is possible to achieve positive outcome through the diplomacy. Also tells me another thing -- someone needs to put STOP to the New World Order and finally have everyone equal in front of the International justice system!
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      02-08-2007, 09:58 PM   #159
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      02-08-2007, 10:08 PM   #160
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It depends on what type of technical information you are referring to. Does it pose a real and present danger to US or allied forces? Are there alternate methods to interdict?

What makes you think we do not have sufficient forces available to conduct strikes such as I described?
I'm referring to nuclear information that NK is passing to Iran. And heck yes, this info poses a real and not so present danger as of yet, to the US and allied forces.

Because of sources saying that the military in the US is already running thin. There was some serious amount of troops transfered out of Afghanistan. Now our Prime Minister is crying that we are to thin and asking for more international help.


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The strikes I mentioned against Iran and Syria would probably be limited to air strikes or raids by special operations forces.
Great, now you've demolished there entire military, whats left? MORE TERRORISM VIA STRAP ON BOMBS!
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      02-08-2007, 10:34 PM   #161
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That is what I like. I well thought out and reasoned response. Why bother with possible repercussions?
We are already reaping the repercussions my friend..."W" is still in office...isn't that repercussion enough?? End of story!
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      02-09-2007, 12:21 AM   #162
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Originally Posted by dr325i View Post
it would clearly violate International laws...maybe not US re-written laws -- no laws. When we act there are no laws to respect... Iraq, Serbia,...

How isn't it against the law to strike an inch of a sovereign country???

If there was a sniper on the US side shooting to the canadian side....for example. You think it would be completely legal for Canadians to shoot the tomahawk accross the border to wibe him off...and "accidentally" take a few more innocent with him???

Ridiculous...
Your grasp of international law is deplorable.

A sovereign nation cannot claim to be neutral while providing aid and training to combatants.

Canada does not have any Tomahawks.
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      02-09-2007, 12:49 AM   #163
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I'm referring to nuclear information that NK is passing to Iran. And heck yes, this info poses a real and not so present danger as of yet, to the US and allied forces.
A nuclear Iran is a real danger to the west regardless of the situation in Iraq. I had held out a slim hope that the west would unite and sufficiently pressure Iran to forgo nuclear development. I will admit that slim hope is fading. If Iran declares itself a nuclear power or tests a bomb, it will probably not be US F-15's over Iran but rather those decorated with a Star of David. That will NOT be pretty.

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Because of sources saying that the military in the US is already running thin. There was some serious amount of troops transfered out of Afghanistan. Now our Prime Minister is crying that we are to thin and asking for more international help.
American troops transferring out of Afghanistan? My understanding is a light infantry brigade was extended in Afghanistan to increase US troop levels there. Our NATO allies have been slow to fulfill their commitments though, that is true.

I have not said and do not advocate a full scale invasion of either Iran or Syria. I just want to deny the anti-Iraq forces safe haven, training areas, or supplies.


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Great, now you've demolished there entire military, whats left? MORE TERRORISM VIA STRAP ON BOMBS!
Where? In Iran and Syria? The whole point of the strikes would be to interdict movement across the border.

They are already blowing up our forces at every opportunity. Would the attacks increase if their supply of explosives was denied to them?
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      02-09-2007, 12:51 AM   #164
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Originally Posted by Desert Bimmer View Post
We are already reaping the repercussions my friend..."W" is still in office...isn't that repercussion enough?? End of story!
No, not at all.

Of course "W" is still in office, he was elected to a 4 year term. Who did you expect to be in office?

What do you think the repercussions of pulling out of Iraq now would be?
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      02-09-2007, 12:54 AM   #165
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Originally Posted by dr325i View Post
WOW, negotiating with NK???!!! What is all that about???
Let me guess -- we're stretched so thin (THANK GOD!) and realized that 1M soldiers is too much to handle, so we resorted to diplomacy... Should have been done in Iraq, too.

That tells me one thing -- it is possible to achieve positive outcome through the diplomacy. Also tells me another thing -- someone needs to put STOP to the New World Order and finally have everyone equal in front of the International justice system!
Would you rather we didn't negotiate with NK? We have allies in the region with more at stake on the Korean peninsula, should we not have deferred to their wishes for continued negotiations?

You seem to forget that we tried diplomacy with Iraq for 12 years.

What "World Body" would you have provide justice for the world??
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Last edited by ganeil; 02-09-2007 at 08:09 AM.
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      02-09-2007, 08:46 AM   #166
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Your grasp of international law is deplorable.

A sovereign nation cannot claim to be neutral while providing aid and training to combatants.

Canada does not have any Tomahawks.
WOW, I expected better from you.
But just like your idol...when cannot answer, then pretend you did not really understand the analogy...

In the eyes of Iran's Gov't we're providing aid and training to combatants against their regime (actually, we openly even say that in fron t of the World). Therefore, what they are doing is just protecting themselves, and dealing with the enemy, but NOT on enemy's territory.
Therefore, I am not sure what International Law is not clear.

Again, back to your great knowledge:
Kosovo, KLA, killing Serbian Policeman and Military Border patrols (before the full escalation of the whole thing) -- why did the US oppose Serbian forces shooting back at the KLA (initially proclamed as a terrorist organization clearly equipped by the fraction of Al Qaeda)?
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      02-09-2007, 08:49 AM   #167
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Would you rather we didn't negotiate with NK? We have allies in the region with more at stake on the Korean peninsula, should we not have deferred to their wishes for continued negotiations?

You seem to forget that we tried diplomacy with Iraq for 12 years.

What "World Body" would you have provide justice for the world??
That is why I said THANK GOD>
It shows how weak we actually are. NK showed us the bomb and we're negotiating now. 12 months ago we would not even think about negotiations. If Iraq had the bomb...Saddam would be still sitting in his palace. That is why Iran's building one, too -- negotiating power. Simply, we caused them to build the nukes.
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      02-09-2007, 08:50 AM   #168
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Would you rather we didn't negotiate with NK? We have allies in the region with more at stake on the Korean peninsula, should we not have deferred to their wishes for continued negotiations?

You seem to forget that we tried diplomacy with Iraq for 12 years.

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What "World Body" would you have provide justice for the world??
Anyone, but the US.
We're too atached to the specific sides in the hot areas. If we approached the middle east conflict (Israel area) in a just way, it would have been solved by now...
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      02-09-2007, 12:31 PM   #169
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Originally Posted by dr325i View Post
WOW, I expected better from you.
But just like your idol...when cannot answer, then pretend you did not really understand the analogy...

In the eyes of Iran's Gov't we're providing aid and training to combatants against their regime (actually, we openly even say that in fron t of the World). Therefore, what they are doing is just protecting themselves, and dealing with the enemy, but NOT on enemy's territory.
Therefore, I am not sure what International Law is not clear.

Again, back to your great knowledge:
Kosovo, KLA, killing Serbian Policeman and Military Border patrols (before the full escalation of the whole thing) -- why did the US oppose Serbian forces shooting back at the KLA (initially proclamed as a terrorist organization clearly equipped by the fraction of Al Qaeda)?
When have we ever said we are training or equipping anti-Iranian groups? We barely provide them moral support.

Are you saying that if the explosives used in IED's come from Iran with the knowledge and consent of the Iranian regime, we cannot interdict those explosives on the Iranian side of the border?

If we find out that the Iranian Revolutionary Guard is training the forces that are fighting Iraqi and coalition forces inside Iran, we have not justification for destroying the training sites?

Do you have any actual education in the field of international law?

I do not know that the US opposed Serbian police and military forces defending themselves and if they did I do not know why.
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      02-09-2007, 12:33 PM   #170
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That is why I said THANK GOD>
It shows how weak we actually are. NK showed us the bomb and we're negotiating now. 12 months ago we would not even think about negotiations. If Iraq had the bomb...Saddam would be still sitting in his palace. That is why Iran's building one, too -- negotiating power. Simply, we caused them to build the nukes.
Very well said.

Don't see us pushing China around and they brutal when it comes to human rights and killing their own. You don't see democracy attacking them!
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      02-09-2007, 12:38 PM   #171
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That is why I said THANK GOD>
It shows how weak we actually are. NK showed us the bomb and we're negotiating now. 12 months ago we would not even think about negotiations. If Iraq had the bomb...Saddam would be still sitting in his palace. That is why Iran's building one, too -- negotiating power. Simply, we caused them to build the nukes.
Your grasp of history is worse than your grasp of international law. The first US-north Korean agreement of the nuclear issue was made in 1994. That agreement fell apart in 2003. The current 6 Party talks began in 2003. In case you are unsure, 1994 and 2003 were more than 12 months ago.
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      02-09-2007, 12:45 PM   #172
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Anyone, but the US.
We're too atached to the specific sides in the hot areas. If we approached the middle east conflict (Israel area) in a just way, it would have been solved by now...
Really? Maybe like offering the Palestinians over 95% of the West Bank and all of Gaza as a state with part of Jerusalem as its capital? Oh wait, that was the American proposal offered to the Palestinians in 2000 and rejected.

Come on, tell me who do you think should act as the world's judge.
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      02-09-2007, 01:23 PM   #173
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Your grasp of history is worse than your grasp of international law. The first US-north Korean agreement of the nuclear issue was made in 1994. That agreement fell apart in 2003. The current 6 Party talks began in 2003. In case you are unsure, 1994 and 2003 were more than 12 months ago.
Actually, your grasp of reality is a bit twisted.
The Admin clearly said no more talks with NK about a year ago:

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/...nion-rightrail

http://www.unitedforpeace.org/article.php?id=3404

http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/as...lks/index.html

Prior to the Nuke tests in NK, all we "negotiated" was for them to stop the development and then...we will see. NK wanted all asnctions lifted and financial help. We did not agree. That is not negotiation! When are you going to accept that the cowboy way of forcing something to other nations has NOTHING to do with the word negotiation. "You leave within 48 hours or we attack you" is no mean of negotiation. "You stop your nuke program...then...we'll talk" is not a negotiation. "Axis of evil" crap is not negotiation -- it is a clear threat and it is pouring fuel on the fire...

Now, when NK showed the teeth, we're really ready to negotiate.
Same will happen with Iran. We do not want them involved in solving Iraq crisis, but lets see what will happen a few months down the road when they test the nuke...

As for China, the are communist (according to our Admin, not me), they do not respect Human Rights, they polute our air...but we kiss their ass all the way because we cannot touch them -- everything in this country (except the GM and Ford) is Made in China...

THis has nothing to do with your knowledge of history or dates posted by the White House. It is simply common sense. Same as the numbers you dig out about our great jobs situation or inflation...

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/070209/earns...ent.html?.v=10

This is the reality of todays jobs -- shakey. Yes, there are tons of new jobs created...if you want to dig next to the HWY, or pack the groceries...
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      02-09-2007, 01:32 PM   #174
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Really? Maybe like offering the Palestinians over 95% of the West Bank and all of Gaza as a state with part of Jerusalem as its capital? Oh wait, that was the American proposal offered to the Palestinians in 2000 and rejected.

Come on, tell me who do you think should act as the world's judge.
The idea of UN is great, if all sides would respect it 100%.
We're the first one to spit on it...when they do not vote the way we wanted them to.
The Security Council is a good idea, but should be expanded, and should definitely include like 3 (less significant) countries with the power of veto.

The UN was created to make sure what is happening today does not happen -- the mst powerful can do whatever they want, therefore, causing unstable governments (NK, Iran...) to seak their protection by acquiring or making the WMD...ultimately leading to the end.

The world courts -- I am all for it. If you're going to demand to exterdite Milosevic, Mladic, Karadzic to Hague for the crimes thay may have done, why not send those that did Haifa crap there too??? Because the USA did not want to agree with it. Why not?? Because our arrogance tells us that only we're right and no one else. If those Europeans kill civilians -- they are bad and need to go to Hague. If we do it...we'll deal with them...

All I'd like to see is justice out there...
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      02-09-2007, 01:48 PM   #175
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Originally Posted by dr325i View Post
Actually, your grasp of reality is a bit twisted.
The Admin clearly said no more talks with NK about a year ago:

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/...nion-rightrail

http://www.unitedforpeace.org/article.php?id=3404

http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/as...lks/index.html

Prior to the Nuke tests in NK, all we "negotiated" was for them to stop the development and then...we will see. NK wanted all asnctions lifted and financial help. We did not agree. That is not negotiation! When are you going to accept that the cowboy way of forcing something to other nations has NOTHING to do with the word negotiation. "You leave within 48 hours or we attack you" is no mean of negotiation. "You stop your nuke program...then...we'll talk" is not a negotiation. "Axis of evil" crap is not negotiation -- it is a clear threat and it is pouring fuel on the fire...

Now, when NK showed the teeth, we're really ready to negotiate.
Same will happen with Iran. We do not want them involved in solving Iraq crisis, but lets see what will happen a few months down the road when they test the nuke...

As for China, the are communist (according to our Admin, not me), they do not respect Human Rights, they polute our air...but we kiss their ass all the way because we cannot touch them -- everything in this country (except the GM and Ford) is Made in China...

THis has nothing to do with your knowledge of history or dates posted by the White House. It is simply common sense. Same as the numbers you dig out about our great jobs situation or inflation...

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/070209/earns...ent.html?.v=10

This is the reality of todays jobs -- shakey. Yes, there are tons of new jobs created...if you want to dig next to the HWY, or pack the groceries...
Do you actually read what you link to? The CNN story is about the north Koreans refusing negotiations. The The LA Times piece is an opinion piece advocating the US drop out of the Six Party talks.

Also, the Yahoo News story is about job cuts in FRANCE!!??
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      02-09-2007, 01:55 PM   #176
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Originally Posted by dr325i View Post
The idea of UN is great, if all sides would respect it 100%.
We're the first one to spit on it...when they do not vote the way we wanted them to.
The Security Council is a good idea, but should be expanded, and should definitely include like 3 (less significant) countries with the power of veto.

The UN was created to make sure what is happening today does not happen -- the mst powerful can do whatever they want, therefore, causing unstable governments (NK, Iran...) to seak their protection by acquiring or making the WMD...ultimately leading to the end.

The world courts -- I am all for it. If you're going to demand to exterdite Milosevic, Mladic, Karadzic to Hague for the crimes thay may have done, why not send those that did Haifa crap there too??? Because the USA did not want to agree with it. Why not?? Because our arrogance tells us that only we're right and no one else. If those Europeans kill civilians -- they are bad and need to go to Hague. If we do it...we'll deal with them...

All I'd like to see is justice out there...
Can you name three nations that have violated Chapter VII UN Security Council Resolutions?

I can, North Korea, Iraq, and Iran.
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