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      02-01-2007, 11:34 PM   #67
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Well...I've been following this whole thread and just want to throw one little fact into this whole mix. You guys maybe a little young to remember this but I give it a try. Remember when former President Jimmy Carter brokered a "peace" between Isreal and the Palistinian leadership so negiations could be given a chance? Isreal brought to the table a long list of demands...peace, live together but she wanted the United Nations to guarantee her safety. Arafat came to the table with a long list of demands, too. Isreal agreed to all of them except one which included the nation of Isreal being desolved.

One side has never intended to give an inch. History is clear as to what happened in the past...it will happen, again.

"There is no answer when there is no question".

Call

Palestenians have had many offers given to them many times and they always refused.
A. Like you said " they want the nation of Isreal to be desolved."
B. They want Jerusalem.
Neither will ever happen until the last jew or Israeli i know will exist.
Never again will we be put in a situation where another Holocaust can happen
We will fight for our freedom and right to survive until the last man standing.
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      02-01-2007, 11:59 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by Call View Post
Well...I've been following this whole thread and just want to throw one little fact into this whole mix. You guys maybe a little young to remember this but I give it a try. Remember when former President Jimmy Carter brokered a "peace" between Isreal and the Palistinian leadership so negiations could be given a chance? Isreal brought to the table a long list of demands...peace, live together but she wanted the United Nations to guarantee her safety. Arafat came to the table with a long list of demands, too. Isreal agreed to all of them except one which included the nation of Isreal being desolved.

One side has never intended to give an inch. History is clear as to what happened in the past...it will happen, again.

"There is no answer when there is no question".

Call
And a nearly identical result happened with Arafat and Barak just a few years ago... the Palestinians were offered enough land and support funds to give them a life that rivals the lifestyle found in suburban Chicago, INCLUDING statehood, no less (and EVEN co-capitalization of Jerusalem!!) ... and what did they say? "-No-", not as long as Israel exists....

They don't want what they say they want, they just want Israel and it's people destroyed. For the most part they'd be happy with dust and dead Israelis is the thing- and that's not a goal to be supported by anyone IMO. (not *every* Palestinian shares that desire I know, but the majority do)
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      02-02-2007, 10:40 AM   #69
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amazing what religious mind can do, god said so men will do, but who really heard god saying it??

happy I live in an almost laic country
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      02-02-2007, 02:40 PM   #70
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amazing what religious mind can do, god said so men will do, but who really heard god saying it??

happy I live in an almost laic country

It's called faith. Some people have it some people don't...
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      02-02-2007, 02:56 PM   #71
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It's called faith. Some people have it some people don't...
Actually, your so called "faith" and the World politics can easily fog up your mind. I do not belong to any of those two sides, therefore I (and many others) see it differently. Hell, I hate discussing about the former Yugoslavia -- how could the Serbs be wrong???

If it were so clear as you represent it -- Israel is innocent, never done anything bad, blah, blah, the things would have been solved by now...
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      02-02-2007, 05:11 PM   #72
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Actually, your so called "faith" and the World politics can easily fog up your mind. I do not belong to any of those two sides, therefore I (and many others) see it differently. Hell, I hate discussing about the former Yugoslavia -- how could the Serbs be wrong???

If it were so clear as you represent it -- Israel is innocent, never done anything bad, blah, blah, the things would have been solved by now...
or, lack of faith or differently placed faith can fog your mind too

It depends on how you see it. Everyone, everyone, makes their choices based on what they believe to be true.

And ironically, even atheism takes a degree of faith... or another word applicable to both would be conviction... that God either absolutely is not, or absolutely is. Only a gnostic doesn't know for sure

I personally willfully choose to believe that the God of the Bible is who he says he is-- and that choice does not require others to believe as I do. We are all free to believe what we will.

But hey, at least we both dig BMWs eh-?
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      02-02-2007, 06:10 PM   #73
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OK, so Hasbollah messed with Israel and that gives them the right (Israel) to attack another country, kill innocent people (then use our famous term -- collateral damage), and so on.

Damn druggies from Columbia are messing with us and are responsible for thousands of our lives... We have every right to attack Columbia and kill their citizens???
There is a huge difference. Namely that Hezbollah controls the government.
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shit, if i had that kind of money id buy a gtstreet for monday, an ascari a10 for tuesday, a DBS for wednesday and id just ride jessica alba the rest of the week.
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      02-02-2007, 08:25 PM   #74
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There is a huge difference. Namely that Hezbollah controls the government.
So, what can that Government do???
Help THEM overthrow Hasbollah, do not put your freikin nose into it!

Again, Serbia example -- they (US, NATO) tried to fight Milosevic for years -- Croatia, Bosnia, Kosovo -- did not succeed -- he was still in power. Then, the US gave the opposition $100M -- Milosevic was done in 5 days...

By putting our noses in there we make things worse -- ALWAYS!
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      02-02-2007, 09:22 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by dr325i View Post
So, what can that Government do???
Help THEM overthrow Hasbollah, do not put your freikin nose into it!

Again, Serbia example -- they (US, NATO) tried to fight Milosevic for years -- Croatia, Bosnia, Kosovo -- did not succeed -- he was still in power. Then, the US gave the opposition $100M -- Milosevic was done in 5 days...

By putting our noses in there we make things worse -- ALWAYS!

The government is Hizbollah!!! They run the show!!!
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      02-02-2007, 11:40 PM   #76
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The government is Hizbollah!!! They run the show!!!
Exactly what I said above and the same situation to the analogy above...
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      02-05-2007, 11:51 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by dr325i View Post
OK, lets be realistic now... Why is Israel "returning" the areas to Palestinians. Word "return" implies previously taken. Remember, there used to be this land called Palestine, that was erased in 1948. I am not an Arab nor a Jew, but I also heard of tough lives and tough times that those Palestinians fought for years...
When was there a land called Palestine? There was the British Mandate for Palestine that existed from 1922 until 1948. The sovereign nations of Jordan and Israel exist there now. Prior to that, the area was ruled by the Ottoman Empire for over 600 years. There has NEVER been a sovereign nation in the area called Palestine.

Anyone who speaks of "returning" the areas to Palestinians is mis-speaking.
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      02-05-2007, 12:02 PM   #78
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We're just a bunch of people voicing our opinions, and see how we can't even come to a consensus. How much more difficult for those who are actually there, seeing the bodies and destruction, tasting the hate in the air.

The single best example of turning your hate to understanding was in a Ghandi movie. One sect had killed another religious sect member. Ghandi told him to atone for his mistake by raising the other's son, in the boy's original religious faith. When the majority can practice THAT level of compassion, we will have a chance for peace.

I have my faith, but I don't have the delusion of granduer that my faith is the one and only true path to God, to the exclusion of all others. I know far too many of the religious teachings my faith has as a basis have been changed by MEN for over 2000 years. How far might I be from the original truth in the details? The one thing *I* am sure of, is that without my acceptance of Jesus as my savior, there's not much after they put me in a pine box.
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      02-05-2007, 12:06 PM   #79
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When was there a land called Palestine? There was the British Mandate for Palestine that existed from 1922 until 1948. The sovereign nations of Jordan and Israel exist there now. Prior to that, the area was ruled by the Ottoman Empire for over 600 years. There has NEVER been a sovereign nation in the area called Palestine.

Anyone who speaks of "returning" the areas to Palestinians is mis-speaking.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Palestine

Looks like at least they existed at one point...where as of now they do not exist at all...
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      02-05-2007, 12:55 PM   #80
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Palestine

Looks like at least they existed at one point...where as of now they do not exist at all...
When exactly? Palestine is a name given to a general region of the world. This region has also been referred to as the Levant. There has never been an entity called Palestine that maintained sovereign control over the region or any part of it.
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      02-06-2007, 03:54 AM   #81
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Palestine

Looks like at least they existed at one point...where as of now they do not exist at all...
They never existed. How can they not exist now?
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      02-06-2007, 08:33 AM   #82
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They never existed. How can they not exist now?
Kosovo by itself never existed (it was the part of Serbia, Bosnia never existed by itself, blah, blah..."how could they exist now?"

Lets not ask questions that do not make sense. Everything is possible today as long as it is in interest of the higher power...
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      02-06-2007, 09:39 AM   #83
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Lets not ask questions that do not make sense.
You are the one who brought it up. Remember, "OK, lets be realistic now... Why is Israel "returning" the areas to Palestinians. Word "return" implies previously taken. Remember, there used to be this land called Palestine, that was erased in 1948."?
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      02-06-2007, 10:32 AM   #84
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You are the one who brought it up. Remember, "OK, lets be realistic now... Why is Israel "returning" the areas to Palestinians. Word "return" implies previously taken. Remember, there used to be this land called Palestine, that was erased in 1948."?
Again...we have heard of the areas being returned to Palestinians...over past few years. Why is that if they never existed? Why is Israel accepting to give up on aza strip, West Bank, Golan Heights, etc. if it is so clear that it all belongs to Israel and that never belonged to someone else. Pretty much not so.

On the other hand, youyou questioned that since the state of Palestine never existed, why ewould they (logically) exist now. I just gave him clear examples that support the logic not always working...
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      02-06-2007, 11:16 AM   #85
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Again...we have heard of the areas being returned to Palestinians...over past few years. Why is that if they never existed? Why is Israel accepting to give up on aza strip, West Bank, Golan Heights, etc. if it is so clear that it all belongs to Israel and that never belonged to someone else. Pretty much not so.

On the other hand, youyou questioned that since the state of Palestine never existed, why ewould they (logically) exist now. I just gave him clear examples that support the logic not always working...
With all due respect, I have not found logic to be your strong suit.

Whether or not people speak of "returning" land or not does not change the fact that there has never been a sovereign Palestinian state.

Israel has never claimed sovereignty over the West Bank (excepting east Jerusalem) or Gaza. They have considered this to be disputed territory captured in war from Jordan and Egypt, neither of which continue to claim sovereignty over the areas previously under their control.

The Oslo Accords set out a process by which the Palestinians would begin to assume civil control over portions of the West Bank and Gaza through the Palestinian Authority with the final status of the territories settled through negotiations. Israel's pull out from Gaza or portions of the West Bank in the future does not imply an Israeli belief that the Palestinians have ever before maintained sovereignty over the region.
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      02-06-2007, 11:38 AM   #86
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With all due respect, I have not found logic to be your strong suit.

Whether or not people speak of "returning" land or not does not change the fact that there has never been a sovereign Palestinian state.

Israel has never claimed sovereignty over the West Bank (excepting east Jerusalem) or Gaza. They have considered this to be disputed territory captured in war from Jordan and Egypt, neither of which continue to claim sovereignty over the areas previously under their control.

The Oslo Accords set out a process by which the Palestinians would begin to assume civil control over portions of the West Bank and Gaza through the Palestinian Authority with the final status of the territories settled through negotiations. Israel's pull out from Gaza or portions of the West Bank in the future does not imply an Israeli belief that the Palestinians have ever before maintained sovereignty over the region.
I guess both sides have to accept compromises and loose something and hopefully gain something (especially peace).
Again, I don't understand if there was never Palestine, if those territories belonged to someone else, if...why is the Palestinian Authority involved and why would Palesinians begin to assume civil control over the areas? Why not Egypt or Jordan if it belonged (possibly) to them?
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      02-06-2007, 12:15 PM   #87
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I guess both sides have to accept compromises and loose something and hopefully gain something (especially peace).
Again, I don't understand if there was never Palestine, if those territories belonged to someone else, if...why is the Palestinian Authority involved and why would Palesinians begin to assume civil control over the areas? Why not Egypt or Jordan if it belonged (possibly) to them?
Egypt and Jordan were left in control of Gaza and the West Bank after the 1948 war. In 1947 the UN drew up a partition plan fro the remaining portion of the British Mandate that divided the area into a Jewish state and an Arab state. The Jews accepted the plan and in may, 1948 formally declared the State of Israel. They were then attacked by the neighboring Arab nations that rejected the plan. When the war ended, portions of the rejected Arab state were were in Israeli, Jordanian, or Egyptian hands. Israel annexed the areas it controlled, Jordan occupied (and later annexed) the West Bank, and Egypt controlled the Gaza Strip.

It was during the Six Day War in 1967 that Israel gained control of the West Bank and Gaza. In 1978, Egypt renounced their claims to Gaza and in 1988 Jordan ceded their claims to the West Bank to the PLO.
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      02-06-2007, 11:25 PM   #88
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Egypt and Jordan were left in control of Gaza and the West Bank after the 1948 war. In 1947 the UN drew up a partition plan fro the remaining portion of the British Mandate that divided the area into a Jewish state and an Arab state. The Jews accepted the plan and in may, 1948 formally declared the State of Israel. They were then attacked by the neighboring Arab nations that rejected the plan. When the war ended, portions of the rejected Arab state were were in Israeli, Jordanian, or Egyptian hands. Israel annexed the areas it controlled, Jordan occupied (and later annexed) the West Bank, and Egypt controlled the Gaza Strip.

It was during the Six Day War in 1967 that Israel gained control of the West Bank and Gaza. In 1978, Egypt renounced their claims to Gaza and in 1988 Jordan ceded their claims to the West Bank to the PLO.
A little bit off the topic...

How come these "rules" apply to our alies (Israel) but not to the others...for example Serbia (Kosovo situation)? Is that the justice we're promoting around the world? Or we promote only if it agrees with our interests...no matter if it is justified?
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