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      01-31-2007, 12:01 AM   #67
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The Germans were defeated before we even successfully tested the A-bomb. If you do not believe we can win, are you willing to accept the consequences of defeat?
Yes, I am willing to accept the consequences of defeat. Why you ask? You yourself mentioned that intel was incorrect, so why continue bashing that country when we were wrong in the first place? We were wrong , do whats right and pull out, its that simple. If there was a clear cut plan to win , well hell I would be willing to look at that, but there isn't, and realistically, there will NEVER BE A WINNING TACTIC.

Lets look at the consequences. Will there be another terrorist attack? HELL YEAH. If we stay , they will attack, if we leave they will attack. You cant fight a war on terror. The war on obesity sure didnt work. The war on poverty didnt work. I'm pretty sure the war on terror wont neither.

Look, I give you credit for standing with the minority, and I appreciate your views. You realize that sooner or later that this war will end with a pull out, democracy wants this. I see your point, hey, if I screwed around with my neighbours wife, and I know the husband is gonna kill me, I'd get to him first.
Its not right......but I'm still alive.
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      01-31-2007, 12:13 AM   #68
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As for Al Qaeda (or OBL), I cannot understand the logic to abandon the hunt when we almost had him and refocus completely on Iraq. Couldn't we send those 100k soldiers to Afghanistan/Pakistan border and finish the job??? Couldn't Iraq wait another 6 months or so??? I see that N Korea and Iran could not be occupied (stopped) in time, so... Or maybe they realized that there is no diplomacy with the USA and they had to expedite what they were doing??? THe question is did we really pushed them into making the nuke(s)???
Hehehe, all I know Doc, is that there are a isht ton of nuclear power out there. The question is, I hope this war in Iraq stops, cause the war binds every single country.

I can see it now, attack Iran cause they are developing nukes. NK gets all pissed off cause the source of $$ stops flowing from Iran. NK buys a nuke from.......I dont know.....China, fires it at Isreal. The US fires on NK, thereby killing some in China.....they get all pissy cause they were not informed of the attack and fire on NY (sorry lets pick Idaho, I feel sorry for New Yorker's)......in turn, its kills some Canadians and we just sit on the fence. :P
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      01-31-2007, 12:16 AM   #69
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i think the US are not "losing" the war militarily, US has the best equipment compared to any other army in the world, people are thinking that the US is losing the war because it is being lost not in Iraq, but in America, because the American people (or at least large majority) no longer support the war, this is what happened in Vietnam too

Its a dilemma really, both solutions (leaving Iraq vs. staying in Iraq and send more troops) have its pros and cons, i think the US should pull out right now and do some damage control, there is already no denying that "defeat" has to be faced, might as well stop the killings of more American and allied soldiers
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      01-31-2007, 12:20 AM   #70
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Hehehe, all I know Doc, is that there are a isht ton of nuclear power out there. The question is, I hope this war in Iraq stops, cause the war binds every single country.

I can see it now, attack Iran cause they are developing nukes. NK gets all pissed off cause the source of $$ stops flowing from Iran. NK buys a nuke from.......I dont know.....China, fires it at Isreal. The US fires on NK, thereby killing some in China.....they get all pissy cause they were not informed of the attack and fire on NY (sorry lets pick Idaho, I feel sorry for New Yorker's)......in turn, its kills some Canadians and we just sit on the fence. :P
nice prospective from a fellow Canuck

But one thing about China, it will not shoot nukes at anyone unless it feels that China is being threatened because of its economic power and rise currently, a war will only devastate the country and does NO GOOD to the rest of the world (ie. people cant buy cheap Nike sneakers, TVs, LCD monitors, laptops, clothes, etc any more)
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      01-31-2007, 12:39 AM   #71
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nice prospective from a fellow Canuck
Hehe, obviously the scenario I mentioned wont happen. Its just me spewing out whats on my mind
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      01-31-2007, 12:45 AM   #72
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but i do agree with you on the comment about Canada, we're aren't aggressive enough in our military presence on the world stage, the main role of peacekeeping is largely ineffective in many parts of the world (e.g. Africa, Afghanistan)
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      01-31-2007, 12:54 AM   #73
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but i do agree with you on the comment about Canada, we're aren't aggressive enough in our military presence on the world stage, the main role of peacekeeping is largely ineffective in many parts of the world (e.g. Africa, Afghanistan)
yep we are getting slaughtered in Afganistan alright. Time to pull out.

Knock on wood, but we haven't been attack by terrorism yet. I firmly believe thats cause we are fence sitters, and because we didnt attack Iraq and sided with the UN, that this lessens our chances of getting attacked.
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      01-31-2007, 02:22 AM   #74
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Yes, I am willing to accept the consequences of defeat. Why you ask? You yourself mentioned that intel was incorrect, so why continue bashing that country when we were wrong in the first place? We were wrong , do whats right and pull out, its that simple. If there was a clear cut plan to win , well hell I would be willing to look at that, but there isn't, and realistically, there will NEVER BE A WINNING TACTIC.
My comment was regarding losing the overall War on Terror (a name I disagree with but the one we seem to be stuck with) rather than simply the current battle in that war in Iraq but lets look at what would happen if we pull out now. It is highly probable that Iraq would fracture into three pieces; a Kurdish state in the north, a radical Sunni state in the west, a fundamentalist Shi'ite state in the south, and a bloodbath in Baghdad. What would the consequences of each of these new entities be for the West?

The Kurds would be nominally pro-Western but an independent Kurdistan would pose problems for our NATO ally, Turkey. If the Kurds proved themselves unwilling or unable to deal with the Turkish Kurds who attach Turkey and take refuge across the border, Turkey may feel it necessary to deal with the problem themselves and we have a war between this new Kurdistan and Turkey. There would also be clashes between the Kurds and the Sunni Arabs over control of the Kirkuk oilfields.

The Sunni state in the western desert bordering Syria and Saudi Arabia would be dominated by radical Wahabist Sunnis similar to the Taliban and sympathetic to 'al Qaeda. This regime may well allow 'al Qaeda the safe haven the Taliban did to recruit and train their members. It would also pose a great danger to the Saudi regime which despite all its flaws is pro-western and keeps the oil flowing.

The Shi'ite state in the south would most likely be an Iranian puppet and would greatly enhance Iranian prestige and power in the region as well as increase Iran's power in the oil market as they would control the southern Iraqi oil production as well as their own.

The situation in Baghdad would be a nightmare that would make Darfur or Srebrenica look mild by comparison as this religiously diverse city of 6 million people descends into anarchy and sectarian slaughter.

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Lets look at the consequences. Will there be another terrorist attack? HELL YEAH. If we stay , they will attack, if we leave they will attack. You cant fight a war on terror. The war on obesity sure didnt work. The war on poverty didnt work. I'm pretty sure the war on terror wont neither.
Do you really think the consequences of losing the overall war on terror would be limited to an occasional attack? Look at what the Islamists/Islamofacsists (pick a name) have been able to accomplish without an outright victory. Do you value freedom of speech? Freedom of expression? Freedom of religion? Do you find it acceptable that newspaper editors are threatened with death because they publish cartoons that someone is offended by? Do you find it acceptable that a film maker is murdered because he made a film that exposed how woman are treated in Islam? This is a clash of civilizations and I believe Western civilization and values are worth fighting for.

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Look, I give you credit for standing with the minority, and I appreciate your views. You realize that sooner or later that this war will end with a pull out, democracy wants this. I see your point, hey, if I screwed around with my neighbours wife, and I know the husband is gonna kill me, I'd get to him first.
Its not right......but I'm still alive.
The only reason the war will end with a pull out is if we lose the will to fight it. Right now we have about two years before that will happen. I pray we can stabilize the situation in Iraq in those two years because the consequences of failure are unacceptable.
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      01-31-2007, 02:33 AM   #75
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yep we are getting slaughtered in Afganistan alright. Time to pull out.

Knock on wood, but we haven't been attack by terrorism yet. I firmly believe thats cause we are fence sitters, and because we didnt attack Iraq and sided with the UN, that this lessens our chances of getting attacked.
I am sure glad the Canadians that landed on the beaches of Normandy did not quit as easily as you seem to. You have lost 44 brave men in Afghanistan since 2002 and over 900 in a single day at Normandy. I guess previous generations of Canadians believed there were some things worth fighting for.
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      01-31-2007, 02:52 AM   #76
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yep we are getting slaughtered in Afganistan alright. Time to pull out.

Knock on wood, but we haven't been attack by terrorism yet. I firmly believe thats cause we are fence sitters, and because we didnt attack Iraq and sided with the UN, that this lessens our chances of getting attacked.
hmm, i wouldnt say that we are getting slaugtered, in a war, lives are bound to be lost, its just a simple fact that the brave men and women have to face to be named soldiers, and that you and i can do all the things we like to do

I think the Afghan mission for Canadians are worthwhile because thats where the Taliban came from and is making the world a safer place and is putting up a fight with the possible source of terrorism, IRAQ is a different case in a whole different dimension however
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      01-31-2007, 09:09 AM   #77
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If you believe that members of Congress were incapable of making reasonable judgments on whether to take this country into war, were somehow deceived or entranced by the incredible persuasive powers of Georg W. Bush, were rushed to make a decision with regard to a situation that had been around for 12 years, or that Colin Powell was duped into making a presentation that he or anyone else believed was inaccurate, then you are irrational.
I admit -- I AM IRRATIONAL (according to your definition above).
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      01-31-2007, 12:25 PM   #78
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My comment was regarding losing the overall War on Terror (a name I disagree with but the one we seem to be stuck with) rather than simply the current battle in that war in Iraq but lets look at what would happen if we pull out now. It is highly probable that Iraq would fracture into three pieces; a Kurdish state in the north, a radical Sunni state in the west, a fundamentalist Shi'ite state in the south, and a bloodbath in Baghdad. What would the consequences of each of these new entities be for the West?

The Kurds would be nominally pro-Western but an independent Kurdistan would pose problems for our NATO ally, Turkey. If the Kurds proved themselves unwilling or unable to deal with the Turkish Kurds who attach Turkey and take refuge across the border, Turkey may feel it necessary to deal with the problem themselves and we have a war between this new Kurdistan and Turkey. There would also be clashes between the Kurds and the Sunni Arabs over control of the Kirkuk oilfields.

The Sunni state in the western desert bordering Syria and Saudi Arabia would be dominated by radical Wahabist Sunnis similar to the Taliban and sympathetic to 'al Qaeda. This regime may well allow 'al Qaeda the safe haven the Taliban did to recruit and train their members. It would also pose a great danger to the Saudi regime which despite all its flaws is pro-western and keeps the oil flowing.

The Shi'ite state in the south would most likely be an Iranian puppet and would greatly enhance Iranian prestige and power in the region as well as increase Iran's power in the oil market as they would control the southern Iraqi oil production as well as their own.

The situation in Baghdad would be a nightmare that would make Darfur or Srebrenica look mild by comparison as this religiously diverse city of 6 million people descends into anarchy and sectarian slaughter.
With this in mind, Saddam did a great job controlling all these entities! With a iron fist albeit, but he did have Iraq under control. Now you suggest that we stay because there would be a bloodbath......ok maybe I see your point here.
However, do you see that the rest of the world looks at this scenario not as a "humanitarian" mission, but a greed issue? We attacked a country, cause we were upset that we got hit in NY. How convenient also that there was incorrect information on WMD's. How convenient that there is oil there. Come on mask it all you want, if this happened on your soil, wouldn't you be mad for a very long time? God forbid the US publicly issue a formal apology for the mistake of attacking Iraq. Now you are saying that its protection from Freedom of speech and Democracy, again a political smoke screen.
It's no different than the Soft wood lumber issue and the free trade act......Canada got screwed.....I suggest you read up on that. No this dosen't make me hate Americans, cause i truly believe that the administration in Washington is to blame.

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      01-31-2007, 12:32 PM   #79
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I am sure glad the Canadians that landed on the beaches of Normandy did not quit as easily as you seem to. You have lost 44 brave men in Afghanistan since 2002 and over 900 in a single day at Normandy. I guess previous generations of Canadians believed there were some things worth fighting for.
Why this comment? Did you read my post prior to posting? you attacking me , suggesting I'm a quitter? Now you've lost any shred of respect I had for you. What a chicken s**t thing to say, there, thats my response and flame to you.

EDIT: I don't think im getting an apology, "HE DREW FIRST BLOOD"! I'm prep'ing my nuclear arsenal now for a retaliatory strike. :P

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      01-31-2007, 12:55 PM   #80
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Why this comment? Did you read my post prior to posting? you attacking me , suggesting I'm a quitter? Now you've lost any shred of respect I had for you. What a chicken s**t thing to say, there, thats my response and flame to you.

EDIT: I don't think im getting an apology, "HE DREW FIRST BLOOD"! I'm prep'ing my nuclear arsenal now for a retaliatory strike. :P
you have to understand that this is a political forum and some people are too sensitive about Bush, and any negative comment toward Bush would be perceived as agains Americans -- again Bush cards -- if you don't agree with me, you're not a patriot...
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      01-31-2007, 12:56 PM   #81
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      01-31-2007, 07:59 PM   #82
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With this in mind, Saddam did a great job controlling all these entities! With a iron fist albeit, but he did have Iraq under control. Now you suggest that we stay because there would be a bloodbath......ok maybe I see your point here.
However, do you see that the rest of the world looks at this scenario not as a "humanitarian" mission, but a greed issue? We attacked a country, cause we were upset that we got hit in NY. How convenient also that there was incorrect information on WMD's. How convenient that there is oil there. Come on mask it all you want, if this happened on your soil, wouldn't you be mad for a very long time? God forbid the US publicly issue a formal apology for the mistake of attacking Iraq. Now you are saying that its protection from Freedom of speech and Democracy, again a political smoke screen.
It's no different than the Soft wood lumber issue and the free trade act......Canada got screwed.....I suggest you read up on that. No this dosen't make me hate Americans, cause i truly believe that the administration in Washington is to blame.
I would not say that Saddam did a great job at all. There were active insurgencies in both the north and the south protected by some extent by the no-fly zones.

There was incorrect information on WMD in great measure because of the actions and inactions of the former Iraqi regime. Saddam was attempting to have it both ways, trying to get the sanctions lifted while maintaining the deterrent he believed WMD provided him against his neighbors.

You speak as though Saddam did not have WMD, he did and used it repeatedly against the Iranians and his own people. You seem to imply that it was only the US that believed Saddam maintained a stockpile of WMD, every intelligence agency in the world did. In large part because Saddam refused to comply with the demands of the applicable UN Security Council resolutions that required the destruction of his stockpiles under the supervision of the UN inspectors. So do I feel we owe anyone an apology, absolutely not.

I will also put this as tactfully as possible but the last thing the US, or any nation, should base its foreign policy decisions on is how it looks to people in other countries.
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      01-31-2007, 08:33 PM   #83
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I would not say that Saddam did a great job at all. There were active insurgencies in both the north and the south protected by some extent by the no-fly zones.

There was incorrect information on WMD in great measure because of the actions and inactions of the former Iraqi regime. Saddam was attempting to have it both ways, trying to get the sanctions lifted while maintaining the deterrent he believed WMD provided him against his neighbors.

You speak as though Saddam did not have WMD, he did and used it repeatedly against the Iranians and his own people. You seem to imply that it was only the US that believed Saddam maintained a stockpile of WMD, every intelligence agency in the world did. In large part because Saddam refused to comply with the demands of the applicable UN Security Council resolutions that required the destruction of his stockpiles under the supervision of the UN inspectors. So do I feel we owe anyone an apology, absolutely not.

I will also put this as tactfully as possible but the last thing the US, or any nation, should base its foreign policy decisions on is how it looks to people in other countries.
Let me start from the bottom -- so you endorse this cowboy-ism our Government promoted in last 6 years -- who cares about the other 6 billion people, we own the world...

Saddam did have the WMD -- some mustard gas and VX and crap like that. He did murder many citizens of Iraq with it -- about 10,000 of them or so. Therefore, they should have dealt with him. He did not hurt or murder any of us. We did murder many of Iraqi citizens, too -- possibly more than Saddam did -- but, hey, we're protected, we just call them a Colleteral Damage and all is cool.
By the way, we're still the ONLY nation in the history of human kind that relentlesly used the WMD in 1945 and in a few seconds wiped more than 250k innocent lives in Japan! Why are we allowed to have the WMD? Especially with the latest War record...

Saddam was bad, no doubt, but again -- only to his people (and Kuweit at one point). But, he did allow some (so called) inspectors to walk around his country for years. He allowed some "no fly zones" for more than 10 years in his country. H Blix clearly came with the report saying NOTHING! Physics and Chemistry then proved there was nothing -- not possible to hide it in 90 days and clean the traces (when we occupied them).

Finally, do not involve other nations and UN into this crap. Bush has used KNOWINGLY the wrong info for this war. He used a 12-year-old resolution (as you're using it too) to justify UN support. In reality, he only had Tony Blair support and some 3rd world nations needing $$$$ to survive support.

Show me "EVERY" nation's intel reports, show me anything but British and US, and I may believe in it...
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      01-31-2007, 09:31 PM   #84
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Why this comment? Did you read my post prior to posting? you attacking me , suggesting I'm a quitter? Now you've lost any shred of respect I had for you. What a chicken s**t thing to say, there, thats my response and flame to you.

EDIT: I don't think im getting an apology, "HE DREW FIRST BLOOD"! I'm prep'ing my nuclear arsenal now for a retaliatory strike. :P
I apologize, this was not intended to be a personal "you" but the plural. I can understand now that I re-read it that it could be interpreted that way.
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      01-31-2007, 09:36 PM   #85
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Let me start from the bottom -- so you endorse this cowboy-ism our Government promoted in last 6 years -- who cares about the other 6 billion people, we own the world...

Saddam did have the WMD -- some mustard gas and VX and crap like that. He did murder many citizens of Iraq with it -- about 10,000 of them or so. Therefore, they should have dealt with him. He did not hurt or murder any of us. We did murder many of Iraqi citizens, too -- possibly more than Saddam did -- but, hey, we're protected, we just call them a Colleteral Damage and all is cool.
By the way, we're still the ONLY nation in the history of human kind that relentlesly used the WMD in 1945 and in a few seconds wiped more than 250k innocent lives in Japan! Why are we allowed to have the WMD? Especially with the latest War record...

Saddam was bad, no doubt, but again -- only to his people (and Kuweit at one point). But, he did allow some (so called) inspectors to walk around his country for years. He allowed some "no fly zones" for more than 10 years in his country. H Blix clearly came with the report saying NOTHING! Physics and Chemistry then proved there was nothing -- not possible to hide it in 90 days and clean the traces (when we occupied them).

Finally, do not involve other nations and UN into this crap. Bush has used KNOWINGLY the wrong info for this war. He used a 12-year-old resolution (as you're using it too) to justify UN support. In reality, he only had Tony Blair support and some 3rd world nations needing $$$$ to survive support.

Show me "EVERY" nation's intel reports, show me anything but British and US, and I may believe in it...
Why do you insist on inserting your irrational nonsense into a discussion that does not involve you? I have shown repeatedly that your views on this matter are based solely on a hatred of President Bush and are not worthy of reply.
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      01-31-2007, 09:39 PM   #86
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      01-31-2007, 10:17 PM   #87
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I apologize, this was not intended to be a personal "you" but the plural. I can understand now that I re-read it that it could be interpreted that way.
Haha, now your patronizing me. Ahhh whatever, apology accepted.

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Why do you insist on inserting your irrational nonsense into a discussion that does not involve you? I have shown repeatedly that your views on this matter are based solely on a hatred of President Bush and are not worthy of reply.
Doc has a point here, whats nonsense about it? When he says that "Bush has used KNOWINGLY the wrong info for this war", how can we prove he he didn't?
What is doc suppose to say, that the people are to blame for electing this President?
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      01-31-2007, 10:33 PM   #88
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Haha, now your patronizing me. Ahhh whatever, apology accepted.



Doc has a point here, whats nonsense about it? When he says that "Bush has used KNOWINGLY the wrong info for this war", how can we prove he he didn't?
What is doc suppose to say, that the people are to blame for electing this President?
First, it is exceedingly difficult to prove a negative but aside from that, the same info was used by and accepted by members of the previous administration as well as other nations. So unless you believe that this vast conspiracy spans a Democrat and Republican administration, the British, the Germans, the Russians, and the Israelis, the notion that President Bush knew that the info was false is unreasonable.
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