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      01-30-2007, 09:21 PM   #45
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As I have already stated, your views on this matter are irrational and completely clouded by your hatred for the President. There is no point in pointing out the ignorance of your comments any further.
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      01-30-2007, 09:26 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
As I have already stated, your views on this matter are irrational and completely clouded by your hatred for the President. There is no point in pointing out the ignorance of your comments any further.
or your blind devotion to the administration.
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      01-30-2007, 09:34 PM   #47
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or your blind devotion to the administration.
This has nothing to do with how I feel about the President. Overall, I have been disappointed with the performance of the current administration in a number of areas but not the War on Terrorism. I supported President Clinton when he took military action against Iraq as well.
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      01-30-2007, 09:40 PM   #48
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ok good! input.....I truly welcome this!

So you say that in war, there is a winner or a loser. With this in mind, answer me this.......since this is a war on terror as you concurred in you past post, it could also be said that, this is a war with Al Qaeda, correct?
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      01-30-2007, 09:44 PM   #49
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isnt everybody a loser when it comes to war? it means you couldn't come to an agreement peacefully.
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      01-30-2007, 09:47 PM   #50
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ok good! input.....I truly welcome this!

So you say that in war, there is a winner or a loser. With this in mind, answer me this.......since this is a war on terror as you concurred in you past post, it could also be said that, this is a war with Al Qaeda, correct?
It is not exclusively with 'al Qaeda but they are certainly a big part of it.
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      01-30-2007, 09:49 PM   #51
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isnt everybody a loser when it comes to war? it means you couldn't come to an agreement peacefully.
Not at all.
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      01-30-2007, 10:01 PM   #52
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This has nothing to do with how I feel about the President. Overall, I have been disappointed with the performance of the current administration in a number of areas but not the War on Terrorism. I supported President Clinton when he took military action against Iraq as well.
Fair enough. But again, there is a VERY weak link between the "War on Terrorism" and Iraq (and the administration itself has admitted that to be the case). It's a matter of resources, and even the most powerful military in the history of the world is finding out that it is one thing to subdue the enemy and another thing to continue to exert control.

I don't blame Bush for 9/11, although I think some of his handlers were privy to intelligence information regarding an imminent attack and failed to act. I also don't praise him for the fact that there have been no more attacks on U.S. soil. Any administration would have beefed up domestic counter-terrorism measures. Additionally, there was also a eight year time lapse btw the 1993/2001 WTC attacks. Al-Qaeda is patient.

The facts:
-Al-Qaeda operated out of bases in Afghanistan/Pakistan with the support of the Taliban and perhaps elements within the Pakistani gov't. Afghanistan was a legitimate target.
-When the Iraq War started, Afghanistan was still (a continues to be) an unstable region militarily. Why did the Bush admin start another war when the war in Afghanistan was still far from over?
-bin Laden remains at large. Wasn't that one of Bush's promises? That those responisble be brought to justice?
-Iraq has cost 3000+ US lives, and hundred of billions of dollars. As a tax payer, do you think this has been an effective use of resources?


In business, if the CEO/Board of Directors drives the company into the ground they are held to account. I have not seen the leaders of the mess be held accountable.

I have no solution for this at all, but I think the President's solution is to maintain the status quo until a new administration can take the reigns and it becomes someone elses problem.
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      01-30-2007, 10:07 PM   #53
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ok ganeil, if Al Qaeda is a big part of it, that in itself is almost impossible to conquer wouldn't you think? Theres no way, we have the capabilities to fight them in all the countries Al Qaeda exists. Even if we did have the capabilities, troops wise, we would look like the Nazi's of the new millennium no? What happened to the Nazi's? They lost. This isn't some baseball (hockey) game , where if you quit, someone sits there and lectures you. This is war, and in a time where nukes are a dime a dozen!

Look bottom line i understand your devotion to your leader and your country. I'm just as patriotic when it comes to my country, born and raised here in Canada. Might this be a source to your views? If so I commend this, but this requires rational thinking. Not to say your not thinking rationally, but throwing brute force into a situation like this could provoke some devastating results don't you think?

Edit: How bout some views from the British? Calling the UK......
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      01-30-2007, 10:28 PM   #54
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All in all...I am not sure who to blame...definitely not ONLY Bush, or ONLY Clinton, or...

We created OBL, we trained Taliban, supported them, gave them the weapons when Russia (USSR at the time) was the enemy...
We supported Saddam Hussein in the war with Iran...
We shook Milosevic's hand when he signed the Dayton Peace Accord...
Bush had the Taliban top officers in the White House months before the 9-11 events...

It was all part of a bigger scheme to make things "tougher" for someone else...

What goes around, comes around they say...

Ganeil, your perception of my hatred toward Bush is wrong. I never said Clinton, or Bush Sr. or...Carter, or...was perfect. But this president sacrifised our trust, our fears (post 911) and our situation (shakey economy, etc) to attack a sovereign nation. He lied to us all the way and now does not know how to admit it and get out of it. Clinton did a similar thing with Sudan and Kosovo. At least Bush Sr. had the right reason to stop Iraq from the invasion of Kuwait.

Again, even as you pointed out, last 6 years were wasted for us -- lives were wasted, money was wasted, the uSA did not advance at all while others cought up with us (China, Japan, Russia is getting there, India most certainly...)

The most disturbing in all is that (and I pointed this out many times) our children will have to repay for all this in the future...
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      01-30-2007, 10:30 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaws View Post
Fair enough. But again, there is a VERY weak link between the "War on Terrorism" and Iraq (and the administration itself has admitted that to be the case). It's a matter of resources, and even the most powerful military in the history of the world is finding out that it is one thing to subdue the enemy and another thing to continue to exert control.

I don't blame Bush for 9/11, although I think some of his handlers were privy to intelligence information regarding an imminent attack and failed to act. I also don't praise him for the fact that there have been no more attacks on U.S. soil. Any administration would have beefed up domestic counter-terrorism measures. Additionally, there was also a eight year time lapse btw the 1993/2001 WTC attacks. Al-Qaeda is patient.

The facts:
-Al-Qaeda operated out of bases in Afghanistan/Pakistan with the support of the Taliban and perhaps elements within the Pakistani gov't. Afghanistan was a legitimate target.
-When the Iraq War started, Afghanistan was still (a continues to be) an unstable region militarily. Why did the Bush admin start another war when the war in Afghanistan was still far from over?
-bin Laden remains at large. Wasn't that one of Bush's promises? That those responisble be brought to justice?
-Iraq has cost 3000+ US lives, and hundred of billions of dollars. As a tax payer, do you think this has been an effective use of resources?


In business, if the CEO/Board of Directors drives the company into the ground they are held to account. I have not seen the leaders of the mess be held accountable.

I have no solution for this at all, but I think the President's solution is to maintain the status quo until a new administration can take the reigns and it becomes someone elses problem.
I do not believe anyone in the administration has ever said that the link between Iraq and the War on Terror was or is weak. The decision to invade Iraq was widely supported by both parties and authorized by huge bipartisan majorities in both houses of Congress. Read the authorizing resolution, it lays out the case against Iraq very well.

War is a very hard thing and the one in Iraq is no exception. We as a nation made a decision to go to war and unless we are willing to accept the repercussions from failure in that war, we must do what it takes to win it.
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      01-30-2007, 10:32 PM   #56
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ok ganeil, if Al Qaeda is a big part of it, that in itself is almost impossible to conquer wouldn't you think? Theres no way, we have the capabilities to fight them in all the countries Al Qaeda exists. Even if we did have the capabilities, troops wise, we would look like the Nazi's of the new millennium no? What happened to the Nazi's? They lost. This isn't some baseball (hockey) game , where if you quit, someone sits there and lectures you. This is war, and in a time where nukes are a dime a dozen!

Look bottom line i understand your devotion to your leader and your country. I'm just as patriotic when it comes to my country, born and raised here in Canada. Might this be a source to your views? If so I commend this, but this requires rational thinking. Not to say your not thinking rationally, but throwing brute force into a situation like this could provoke some devastating results don't you think?

Edit: How bout some views from the British? Calling the UK......

As for Al Qaeda (or OBL), I cannot understand the logic to abandon the hunt when we almost had him and refocus completely on Iraq. Couldn't we send those 100k soldiers to Afghanistan/Pakistan border and finish the job??? Couldn't Iraq wait another 6 months or so??? I see that N Korea and Iran could not be occupied (stopped) in time, so... Or maybe they realized that there is no diplomacy with the USA and they had to expedite what they were doing??? THe question is did we really pushed them into making the nuke(s)???
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      01-30-2007, 10:34 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
I do not believe anyone in the administration has ever said that the link between Iraq and the War on Terror was or is weak. The decision to invade Iraq was widely supported by both parties and authorized by huge bipartisan majorities in both houses of Congress. Read the authorizing resolution, it lays out the case against Iraq very well.

War is a very hard thing and the one in Iraq is no exception. We as a nation made a decision to go to war and unless we are willing to accept the repercussions from failure in that war, we must do what it takes to win it.
No, no, no!!!
Not true at all. Bush played his cards right -- post 911 depression, fear! You're with me or you're an enemy. United we stand! Power point presentation by Power (over which he later quit his job)... So, with all that, would you really vote against the President. It was rushed so much, no one could even question it!
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      01-30-2007, 10:48 PM   #58
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ok ganeil, if Al Qaeda is a big part of it, that in itself is almost impossible to conquer wouldn't you think? Theres no way, we have the capabilities to fight them in all the countries Al Qaeda exists. Even if we did have the capabilities, troops wise, we would look like the Nazi's of the new millennium no? What happened to the Nazi's? They lost. This isn't some baseball (hockey) game , where if you quit, someone sits there and lectures you. This is war, and in a time where nukes are a dime a dozen!

Look bottom line i understand your devotion to your leader and your country. I'm just as patriotic when it comes to my country, born and raised here in Canada. Might this be a source to your views? If so I commend this, but this requires rational thinking. Not to say your not thinking rationally, but throwing brute force into a situation like this could provoke some devastating results don't you think?

Edit: How bout some views from the British? Calling the UK......
I would say it depends on how you define success. 'al Qaeda is a complex and amorphous organization but it is not invulnerable. Implying that it would be necessary to kill or capture every member or sympathizer of any organization in order to defeat it is like saying it was necessary to kill every Nazi before Germany was defeated in WWII. 'al Qaeda can be defeated by ways short of killing or capturing all of its members. Denying them safe haven to set up training bases, disrupting the flow of funds to operatives, effective domestic and foreign intelligence to identify cells and disrupt plots all play a role in defeating 'al Qaeda.

I have little doubt that if 'al Qaeda or Hezbollah obtained a nuclear weapon they would use it. It is therefore imperative that we do what we can to prevent that from happening.

Of course my thoughts on this matter are colored by my being an American but I do not see where that leads to my thoughts being any less rational than anyone else's.

This is not about rooting for the Rangers over the Oilers for emotional reasons but making real decisions that have real effects.
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      01-30-2007, 10:49 PM   #59
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No, no, no!!!
Not true at all. Bush played his cards right -- post 911 depression, fear! You're with me or you're an enemy. United we stand! Power point presentation by Power (over which he later quit his job)... So, with all that, would you really vote against the President. It was rushed so much, no one could even question it!
Thank you but please keep your irrational rants to yourself.
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      01-30-2007, 10:54 PM   #60
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Thank you but please keep your irrational rants to yourself.
Tell me why and how it is irrational.
Explain it to us all.
If you cannot, do not come back with the stupid comment like that...
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      01-30-2007, 11:03 PM   #61
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I do not believe anyone in the administration has ever said that the link between Iraq and the War on Terror was or is weak. The decision to invade Iraq was widely supported by both parties and authorized by huge bipartisan majorities in both houses of Congress. Read the authorizing resolution, it lays out the case against Iraq very well.

War is a very hard thing and the one in Iraq is no exception. We as a nation made a decision to go to war and unless we are willing to accept the repercussions from failure in that war, we must do what it takes to win it.
Bi-partisan majorities due to false information being presented to Congress.

You do a great job in skirting the questions.

1)bin Laden is free. Whose fault is that?
2) As ex-military, do you think the Iraq war is an effective use of resources?

When Mr.Snow's tenure is done, you've got a job as Press Secretary.

I still cannot believe you truly think that there is a link btw terrorism and Iraq.
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      01-30-2007, 11:04 PM   #62
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Implying that it would be necessary to kill or capture every member or sympathizer of any organization in order to defeat it is like saying it was necessary to kill every Nazi before Germany was defeated in WWII.
We won WWII cause the US droped the A-bomb, when no one else had the technology. For us to even come close to winning this war, it would require much more force than can be fathomed. I just don't see how there is a win scenario......
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      01-30-2007, 11:05 PM   #63
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we...as in America fukked that country up! its 10 times worse than it was before. and more people have died already than the amount that were killed by Sadamm himself.
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      01-30-2007, 11:07 PM   #64
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Tell me why and how it is irrational.
Explain it to us all.
If you cannot, do not come back with the stupid comment like that...
If you believe that members of Congress were incapable of making reasonable judgments on whether to take this country into war, were somehow deceived or entranced by the incredible persuasive powers of Georg W. Bush, were rushed to make a decision with regard to a situation that had been around for 12 years, or that Colin Powell was duped into making a presentation that he or anyone else believed was inaccurate, then you are irrational.
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      01-30-2007, 11:10 PM   #65
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We won WWII cause the US droped the A-bomb, when no one else had the technology. For us to even come close to winning this war, it would require much more force than can be fathomed. I just don't see how there is a win scenario......
The Germans were defeated before we even successfully tested the A-bomb. If you do not believe we can win, are you willing to accept the consequences of defeat?
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      01-30-2007, 11:20 PM   #66
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Bi-partisan majorities due to false information being presented to Congress.

You do a great job in skirting the questions.

1)bin Laden is free. Whose fault is that?
2) As ex-military, do you think the Iraq war is an effective use of resources?

When Mr.Snow's tenure is done, you've got a job as Press Secretary.

I still cannot believe you truly think that there is a link btw terrorism and Iraq.
Was it the same information the administration had? Yes. Did it turn out to be incorrect? Yes. So what? Should we have said, "Never mind" and left?

1) I am not sure it is any one person's fault. Do I think we are doing everything we can do to capture him? Yes.

2) Yes.

I cannot believe you do not believe there is/was no link between Iraq and terrorist organizations. Can you tell me whether Abu Musab al-Zarqawi arrived in Iraq before or after the invasion?
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