BMW M3 Forum (E90 E92)

BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   M3Post - BMW M3 Forum > M3 (E90 / E92 / E93) > General M3 Forum (E90 + E92 + E93)
 
GTB Performance
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      01-23-2007, 09:33 PM   #1
replicat
Lieutenant
9
Rep
516
Posts

 
Drives: 40MPG
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Southern California

iTrader: (0)

M Dynamics Confirmed

Hey guys I thought I'd share this with you. I spoke to Jim Anill who is the Head of BMW Service Tech Training for BMWNA (He was at a presentation at my school last week) And alot of people were bomarbding him with questions, but I manage to get a couple answered and one of the few he confirmed was M dynamics, and that it does exist.
He said that one of his colleauges is going to Germany Next month to test out the New M3 in it 99% production form!

I couldn't really get anymore question's from him, as a line of kids were raping him with questions, but I did overhear him say that the New M3 will obliterate the 335i. His quote was "there will be no comparison, it will be day and night"

Thats all.

_pete
Appreciate 0
      01-23-2007, 09:39 PM   #2
jtown
Lieutenant
jtown's Avatar
12
Rep
596
Posts

 
Drives: TBD
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Norcal

iTrader: (0)

Good news!
Appreciate 0
      01-23-2007, 09:47 PM   #3
swamp2
Lieutenant General
swamp2's Avatar
United_States
214
Rep
10,201
Posts

 
Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: San Diego, CA USA

iTrader: (1)

Nice work Pete!

Quote:
Originally Posted by replicat View Post
Hey guys I thought I'd share this with you. I spoke to Jim Anill who is the Head of BMW Service Tech Training for BMWNA (He was at a presentation at my school last week) And alot of people were bomarbding him with questions, but I manage to get a couple answered and one of the few he confirmed was M dynamics, and that it does exist.
He said that one of his colleauges is going to Germany Next month to test out the New M3 in it 99% production form!

I couldn't really get anymore question's from him, as a line of kids were raping him with questions, but I did overhear him say that the New M3 will obliterate the 335i. His quote was "there will be no comparison, it will be day and night"

Thats all.

_pete
However, I guess it is an oxymoron so say it is all rumors until we have specs. What I am much more interested in is "the meat rather than the bone"; what the heck is M dynamics exactly. I suspect improved DSC, improved ABS and adjustable suspension with perhaps some links between them from FlexRay. Did you get this in with any of your questions? Any others have some different/better ideas, rumors or speculation?
Appreciate 0
      01-24-2007, 07:26 PM   #4
replicat
Lieutenant
9
Rep
516
Posts

 
Drives: 40MPG
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Southern California

iTrader: (0)

No nothing big was answered...(it didn't seem as if he even knew anything on it other than the M dynamics and flexray.
Appreciate 0
      01-24-2007, 07:34 PM   #5
m_bazeepaymon
Major
19
Rep
1,075
Posts

 
Drives: 2008 E92 335i
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Los Angeles

iTrader: (4)

Send a message via AIM to m_bazeepaymon
Quote:
Originally Posted by replicat View Post
No nothing big was answered...(it didn't seem as if he even knew anything on it other than the M dynamics and flexray.
wat is flex ray
__________________


ZzZzZ'er
Appreciate 0
      01-26-2007, 07:24 AM   #6
SCOTT26
Brigadier General
SCOTT26's Avatar
311
Rep
3,236
Posts

 
Drives: Frozen Dark Silver 30 Jahre
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: WORLDWIDE

iTrader: (0)

When BMW talk about their M-Division products we do not headline with the cars output as other manufacturers do to grab their attention we hit you with the core reasons for the definition of a performance car - What makes a performance car ? we headline with the use of technology and how this brings about the enhancement of a performance car , We tell you how everything comes together in our marketing to make a performance car We just dont hit you with the flat out power output. because you would like to steer round corners or else you will be flat out in a tree or off a cliff.

M-Dynamics will be a major talking point because of what it brings to a performance car , The new V8 will also be a talking point becaue of it's association with the world class and award winning V10. But there are other interesting points to talk about than just announcing the power output.

When at the Detroit show a Lexus marketing exec boasted that the new Lexus IF will be a rival for the next M3 on which I replied " How can you say that when you have not even seen the next M3?" Let alone know what it will bring? As usual the performance manufacturers are claiming that flat out performance will be the significant factor in their marketing when some manufacturers are not even on the same page let alone in the same book as a BMW-M car. And the next M3 will cement this fact.
Appreciate 0
      01-26-2007, 08:32 AM   #7
southlight
Moderator / European Editor
southlight's Avatar
607
Rep
6,748
Posts

 
Drives: BMW
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Germany

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post
But there are other interesting points to talk about than just announcing the power output.
That's good! Tell us more about the other points!
Sounds like the power output remains at 414 HP as you said long ago...

Best regards, south
Appreciate 0
      01-26-2007, 08:45 AM   #8
ILC32
Lieutenant
ILC32's Avatar
18
Rep
580
Posts

 
Drives: 1993 Porsche RSA
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere

iTrader: (0)

Spin and Marketing 101

With respect to Scott26, none of this sounds very promising to me. If power -- for example -- is not class leading, of course you stress other things to direct market attention away from weaknesses (real or perceived) and toward strengths (real or merely perceived) such as they are. You minimize the perceived importance of attributes in which your product is less competitive (power, anyone?), and emphasize the perceived importance of attributes in which your product is more competitive or even just different.

But for example, as I asked in another thread, how is M Dynamics/FlexRay really a strength? Is there a measurable performance benefit in terms of lap times in any of Scott26's "talking points"? If not, *yawn*.
Appreciate 0
      01-26-2007, 12:32 PM   #9
Norsk
Major
Norsk's Avatar
Norway
17
Rep
1,089
Posts

 
Drives: E90 335i
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Canada

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by m_bazeepaymon View Post
wat is flex ray
What is FlexRay?

For these automotive applications to become commonplace, a number of protocol requirements must exist. Enter FlexRay. FlexRay is a communication system developed by a consortium founded in 2000 by BMW, DaimlerChrysler, Motorola, and Philips Semiconductors. In 2001, Robert Bosch GmbH and General Motors joined the consortium. So did Ford Motor Company this past June. The consortium members realized that despite the numerous automotive communications protocols out on the market—most from Europe, most in or just out of development—none would fulfill future automotive control requirements. Even the computer communications protocols don't suffice. "None of them are automotive qualified," explains Andreas Both, business and technology manager overseeing FlexRay for the Semiconductor Products Sector of Motorola (Munich, Germany). That is, they are not qualified for automotive operating temperatures and electromagnetic compatibility requirements. (Remember hearing spark plugs fire through your aftermarket AM radio?)

FlexRay is an open, common, scalable electronic architecture for automotive applications. It can operate in single- or dual-channel mode, providing redundancy where needed. It allows both synchronous and asynchronous data transmissions. With the former, other nodes on the network receive time-triggered messages in a predefined latency time. With the latter, messages get to their destinations quickly or slowly, depending on their priority. Currently, FlexRay can handle communications at 10 Mbps—the speed of your typical low-end home-computing local area network. Motorola's Both is quick to add that this standard doesn't mean that 10 Mbps is enough forevermore. Instead, it is fast enough for the foreseeable future, given the applications automakers have envisioned thus far.

Last, FlexRay's clock synchronization mechanism aptly handles cheap clock oscillators, namely those made out of quartz. And that synchronization, as with all of FlexRay, is fault tolerant. For example, FlexRay automatically and digitally compensates for the differences in the variety of quartz clocks running on the network, as well as in their slight changes in clock frequencies. This clock synchronization is a distributed mechanism; there's no master timekeeper here. So if one node fails or for some reason is taken off the network, the other nodes will continue to operate in synchrony.

(Insofar as the fault tolerance of motors and sensors, the normal rules of reliable systems design applies. For example, in a steer-by-wire system, the sensor system in the steering wheel will be a redundant array, with two or three sensors providing the same signal. A judging algorithm in the electronics will then determine the validity of the signals; that is, it will determine whether all three sensors are providing the same information, or at least two of the three.)


IMHO: best, clearest and most detailed info here:
http://www.autofieldguide.com/articles/090205.html

------------------------------------------------------------------
2007 BMW X5 intros high-speed communication chip based on Flexray tech
Wolfgang Gruener

August 9, 2006 15:51

Munich (Germany) - BMW today announced a new version of its X5 flagship SUV. It's larger, stronger and faster and probably better and more expensive than its predecessor, but what makes this new model especially interesting form a technological view is the presence of a Flexray chip.

Developed in a consortium that includes BMW, Bosch, DaimlerChrysler, Freescale, General Motors, Philips and Volkswagen, Flexray is a protocol that delivers about 10 Mbit/s bandwidth for communication between active and passive safety systems, collision avoidance systems, powertrain management systems and driver assistance systems. Flexray is about 20 times faster than comparable and current in-car communication systems, according to Freescale.

According to the Flexray consortium, the technology is expected to be used in time- and event-triggered communication schemes, support of fault-tolerant systems and offer a high error detection and error diagnosis capability, a dedicated automotive electrical physical layer with sophisticated powerdown and wake up mechanisms, extendability and scalability for upgrades and support for different network topologies.
Freescale is currently the only manufacturer that has announced Flexray processors.

------------------------------------------------------------------
Why the Switch?

The next-generation BMW X5 is said to implement the first application of Flexray in the automotive world, using the relatively new networking protocol for its electronically controlled dampers. This will come approximately two years before the manufacturer rolls out its first platform that uses Flexray as the main vehicle communications backbone. The CAN-C systems currently in place are limited to 500 kbs, which many manufacturers are finding isn't fast enough. Even more problematic, CAN isn't deterministic; that is, it cannot be assured that a message will be successfully transmitted at a particular point in time. There are ways of asserting priority on the network, but this involves playing favorites - not acceptable when it comes to deciding whether the braking or steering is more important, and while those two were arguing, your electromechanical valve system just crashed. Flexray solves both problems by increasing the data rate, and implements a low-cost means of establishing a network clock so that each module is given a discrete slice of time in which it can do its thing. There's a decent introduction to it here for those looking to learn more. Expect to hear a lot more about this in the next few years. In the meantime, those of us heavily invested in CAN development tools will hopefully get our money's worth.

*****************************

Hope this answers your question.
Appreciate 0
      01-26-2007, 12:56 PM   #10
southlight
Moderator / European Editor
southlight's Avatar
607
Rep
6,748
Posts

 
Drives: BMW
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Germany

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Norsk View Post
What is FlexRay?
...
Hope this answers your question.
And based on that the question of the benefit can also be answered. Due to the higher data rate of flexray it is possible for components like adaptive suspension to react faster. This should result in a better "driving experience." But as always the marketing purpose is also not to deny.

@ Scott: Your "friend" eni mentioned that also most of the BMW officials don't know the final specs of the M3 engine (DI, output, displ.). Hope you're a exception and can give a hint. AFAIK different engine expension stages were tested. So the question is: which won?

Best regards, south


Name:  BMW_GC_800.jpg
Views: 250964
Size:  87.4 KB

Name:  VED_signature.gif
Views: 85
Size:  60.2 KB

Name:  VED_signature2.gif
Views: 78
Size:  31.6 KB

Name:  VED_signature3.gif
Views: 672924
Size:  51.1 KB

Name:  1m_raffle2.gif
Views: 35171
Size:  52.8 KB

Name:  MINI_WRC_800.gif
Views: 43855
Size:  58.5 KB

Name:  f10msig2.gif
Views: 2208996
Size:  47.5 KB

Name:  drawing_600.gif
Views: 1180059
Size:  5.9 KB

Name:  New_3.jpg
Views: 36
Size:  17.9 KB
Appreciate 0
      01-26-2007, 01:17 PM   #11
ILC32
Lieutenant
ILC32's Avatar
18
Rep
580
Posts

 
Drives: 1993 Porsche RSA
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere

iTrader: (0)

I can understand that Flexray may mean quicker responsiveness for DSC intervention, or adaptive suspension adjustment. But it seems that we are talking differences of fractions of a second between Flexray and non-Flexray implementations. Does shaving microseconds off of the electronic communication between car systems really make an M a better car than competitors in its segment? Does Flexray make an M a better performance car than one without Flexray but with 10% more power and well-tuned conventional systems?
Appreciate 0
      01-26-2007, 01:36 PM   #12
swamp2
Lieutenant General
swamp2's Avatar
United_States
214
Rep
10,201
Posts

 
Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: San Diego, CA USA

iTrader: (1)

+1

Quote:
Originally Posted by ILC32 View Post
I can understand that Flexray may mean quicker responsiveness for DSC intervention, or adaptive suspension adjustment. But it seems that we are talking differences of fractions of a second between Flexray and non-Flexray implementations. Does shaving microseconds off of the electronic communication between car systems really make an M a better car than competitors in its segment? Does Flexray make an M a better performance car than one without Flexray but with 10% more power and well-tuned conventional systems?
Great point. Maybe it is also some synergy between DSC, adaptive suspension, ABS and even SMG. Perhaps with synergy and faster communication the whole will be much greater than the sum of its parts. However, I am still a skeptic at heart. Electronics have helped modern sports cars (all cars even) tremendously but nothing contributes to performance more than hp, weight loss, rpms, big rubber, big brakes and SMG :rocks:
Appreciate 0
      01-26-2007, 01:37 PM   #13
swamp2
Lieutenant General
swamp2's Avatar
United_States
214
Rep
10,201
Posts

 
Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: San Diego, CA USA

iTrader: (1)

OMG...

Quote:
Originally Posted by m_bazeepaymon View Post
wat is flex ray
Appreciate 0
      01-26-2007, 01:51 PM   #14
southlight
Moderator / European Editor
southlight's Avatar
607
Rep
6,748
Posts

 
Drives: BMW
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Germany

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Appreciate 0
      01-26-2007, 07:43 PM   #15
Norsk
Major
Norsk's Avatar
Norway
17
Rep
1,089
Posts

 
Drives: E90 335i
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Canada

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Great point. Maybe it is also some synergy between DSC, adaptive suspension, ABS and even SMG. Perhaps with synergy and faster communication the whole will be much greater than the sum of its parts. However, I am still a skeptic at heart. Electronics have helped modern sports cars (all cars even) tremendously but nothing contributes to performance more than hp, weight loss, rpms, big rubber, big brakes and SMG :rocks:
FlexRay can help in performance of SMG or New Super Automatic + also helps in weight loss.
Appreciate 0
      01-26-2007, 09:30 PM   #16
Robert
Major General
116
Rep
6,902
Posts

 
Drives: 135i, current is350
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Socal

iTrader: (1)

BMW and more electronics...
Appreciate 0
      01-26-2007, 10:30 PM   #17
sdiver68
Expert Road Racer
22
Rep
1,330
Posts

 
Drives: 07 335i e90, 09 335i e93
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: St. Louis, MO

iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by replicat View Post
His quote was "there will be no comparison, it will be day and night"

Thats all.

_pete
Tell Mr Anill to meet me at Road America, I'll be the one in the blue 335i and the video camera to document "night and day".
Appreciate 0
      01-27-2007, 01:01 AM   #18
coaster
Private First Class
coaster's Avatar
4
Rep
123
Posts

 
Drives: E90 M3 6MT
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Los Angeles

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post
When BMW talk about their M-Division products we do not headline with the cars output as other manufacturers do to grab their attention we hit you with the core reasons for the definition of a performance car - What makes a performance car ? we headline with the use of technology and how this brings about the enhancement of a performance car , We tell you how everything comes together in our marketing to make a performance car We just dont hit you with the flat out power output. because you would like to steer round corners or else you will be flat out in a tree or off a cliff.

M-Dynamics will be a major talking point because of what it brings to a performance car , The new V8 will also be a talking point becaue of it's association with the world class and award winning V10. But there are other interesting points to talk about than just announcing the power output.

When at the Detroit show a Lexus marketing exec boasted that the new Lexus IF will be a rival for the next M3 on which I replied " How can you say that when you have not even seen the next M3?" Let alone know what it will bring? As usual the performance manufacturers are claiming that flat out performance will be the significant factor in their marketing when some manufacturers are not even on the same page let alone in the same book as a BMW-M car. And the next M3 will cement this fact.
If this post isn't 100% marketing BS then I am a flying nun.

"... cement this fact"??? Come on, for an "insider" please offer something other than this "pure stuff".

God, I hate marketing BS
Appreciate 0
      01-27-2007, 01:04 AM   #19
coaster
Private First Class
coaster's Avatar
4
Rep
123
Posts

 
Drives: E90 M3 6MT
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Los Angeles

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by sdiver68 View Post
Tell Mr Anill to meet me at Road America, I'll be the one in the blue 335i and the video camera to document "night and day".
I think he meant comparing the new M3 with the factory mis-tuned 335i. You are probably thinking of the M3 against the 335i-on-steroids. Let's cut Mr Anill some slack here.
Appreciate 0
      01-27-2007, 03:11 AM   #20
replicat
Lieutenant
9
Rep
516
Posts

 
Drives: 40MPG
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Southern California

iTrader: (0)

Forget about the marketing! Flexray = Better laptimes by, quicker communication/respoding between the braking, steering, TC, and shifting, modules. Don't forget that the shedding of some wire looms will also cut weight 10-15 lbs.
If some people in here understand in depth how automotive electronics work then you will understand how vital multiplexing is for a sportscar. For the cars brakes, tc, steering and throttle to all be in tune, 10 TIMES FASTER, is phenomenal..The car will correct your mistakes before you even know one has occured.

Now granted maybe the hardcore "im stripping my interior, and I drive with my DSC off always yadda, yadda" track guy may not care about it. But for the majority of the people that go for mountain drives, its a great security on your life.

Don't bitch about it, just accept that its better and that it will make the car better. If the car weighs in at 3500lb and 420hp for 55-60K thats good enough condsidering all of the former options that will now be standard on this model.
Appreciate 0
      01-27-2007, 03:11 AM   #21
replicat
Lieutenant
9
Rep
516
Posts

 
Drives: 40MPG
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Southern California

iTrader: (0)

PS. Its Jim Antill

I spelled his name incorrectly
Appreciate 0
      01-27-2007, 07:41 AM   #22
ILC32
Lieutenant
ILC32's Avatar
18
Rep
580
Posts

 
Drives: 1993 Porsche RSA
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere

iTrader: (0)

Since IIRC BMW has already said Flexray will not be fully implemented until the new 7er is released, this means that the Flexray implementation in the M3 will not be a complete replacement for conventional systems. I think some of you are drastically overestimating the impact, if any, it will actually have. Scott26 would be pleased.

SMG already shifts in miliseconds in its fastest mode. M has so far rejected active steering because it dilutes steering feel.

BMW and M are known for tuning a car's chassis and suspension so it handles well WITHOUT DSC or other systems. BMW does not build cars such as the Z06 that (according to what I have read -- I have not driven one) are almost unmanageable on the track unless DSC or other electronic safety nets are on.

Come on guys, changing the tires from Contis to PS2s will probably have more of an impact on the performance of the car than Flexray.

Would you rather have a 3600 lb car with 440 hp and well-tuned conventional systems or a 3575 lb car with 415 hp and Flexray?
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:15 AM.




m3post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST