What to do in Iraq?

[ghost6]

I'm curious about everyone's opinion on the current situation in Iraq. Essentially it seems like the number of options are limited. Basically, these are the courses of action that exist as I see it:

1) Greatly reduce the number of troops and hope the Iraqi government can stand.

2) Greatly reduce the number of troops and divide Iraq into several small provinces with a weak or no central government.

3) Maintain the current levels of troops and focus on increasing the number of Iraqi security forces.

4) Greatly increase the number of troops and continue to develop the current government.

I know that lots of people have opinioins on the validity / legality of the war in general, but that's largely irrellevant at this point. I'm interested in what people think we should do and why.

[BuckJon]

Hahah this country (Iraq) is so fucked no matter what we do. If we reduce the number of troops we will be screwing over the guys left there, so that would rule out #1 and #2. If they want to send more people over here, they better start the draft back up and all yall who are too scared to come out here better shut the fuck up about not wanting to. I'm all for hightailing it out of Iraq and doing a complete FOD walkdown on Afghanistan to finally find Osama and kill his ass, on video of course. As far as Iraq, I guess I value American life way more than theirs, so I guess getting their dumbasses all trained up to fight their own fight would be best. Then go home and watch them kill each other until the best party wins! I could care less if it was a democratic govt or not though, that is the problem with our government, trying to spread democracy all over the world.

[ghost6]

The most interesting thing about a future draft is that it would have to include women. I'm not being sexist or trying to say that women can't serve, because clearly they can. I'm just wondering what the social impact of something like this would be. Would American families be willing to send their daughters to war? Would fathers stay home and watch the war on CNN while their "little girls" are in Iraq fighting?

[dr335is]

Originally Posted by BuckJon

Hahah this country (Iraq) is so fucked no matter what we do. If we reduce the number of troops we will be screwing over the guys left there, so that would rule out #1 and #2. If they want to send more people over here, they better start the draft back up and all yall who are too scared to come out here better shut the fuck up about not wanting to. I'm all for hightailing it out of Iraq and doing a complete FOD walkdown on Afghanistan to finally find Osama and kill his ass, on video of course. As far as Iraq, I guess I value American life way more than theirs, so I guess getting their dumbasses all trained up to fight their own fight would be best. Then go home and watch them kill each other until the best party wins! I could care less if it was a democratic govt or not though, that is the problem with our government, trying to spread democracy all over the world.

It was f**ked up before but nowhere near to what we did to it!
We should either pack up and leave and admit Bush's stupidity, or increase all available troops and clean the crap and then leave.
In both cases -- it is not what we planned to do initially and not what we were told in a first place...

[IDENTITY_MOTORSPORTS]

Bush sucks, 9/11 is a conspieracy and we have no reason that we sould be in Iraq.

[Driv3r]

That war is not OUR war.....can we really go to war because "saddam is a tyrant, he tortures innocent citizens blah blah blah..."

What about china? are we invading them? how about N. Korea? they have admitted to TRYING to get their missiles to reach our shores...finally, have you guys ever read up on Africa's situation??

The American Government tries to act like they are doing this from the goodness of their heart.. they said they wanted to give Iraq "freedom, and liberties that we enjoy so much"......I could go on, and on..

[dr335is]

Originally Posted by Driv3r

That war is not OUR war.....can we really go to war because "saddam is a tyrant, he tortures innocent citizens blah blah blah..."

What about china? are we invading them? how about N. Korea? they have admitted to TRYING to get their missiles to reach our shores...finally, have you guys ever read up on Africa's situation??

The American Government tries to act like they are doing this from the goodness of their heart.. they said they wanted to give Iraq "freedom, and liberties that we enjoy so much"......I could go on, and on..

All good points, but Bush (the Uniter) has divided the nation so bad that no one who supports him would even consider looking into the facts and questions. I disagree about the conspiracy stuff and 9/11, but cannot understand that Clinton almost got impeached for messing his marriage up, and this idiot is responsible for 3000 our soldiers dead and a half a million of innocent Iraqis dead.

When I came to this country in 1991, the USA was a symbol of power, freedom, success, other nations admired us.
This month, I was in Hong Kong and China and people are spittin on the USA and our political views. Currently, in India, cannot wait to hear comments here...

But I don't only blame Bush and current administration for the popularity decline of the USA. THe previous leader(s) have played dirty politics too -- Clinton has "tried" to help Albanians in Serbia in 1999, and promised Serbian people to rebuild their country when they turn in Milosevic. THey did it, Clinton's term is over, no one gives a shit about Serbia, we send them $100M in yearly help after we did about $70B in damages over there... And, Kosovo is a very nasty place after we put our hands in it.

Same for Iraq -- it was bad, but it is completely out of control today, and innocent people get the worst out of it.

[Driv3r]

Originally Posted by dr325i

All good points, but Bush (the Uniter) has divided the nation so bad that no one who supports him would even consider looking into the facts and questions. I disagree about the conspiracy stuff and 9/11, but cannot understand that Clinton almost got impeached for messing his marriage up, and this idiot is responsible for 3000 our soldiers dead and a half a million of innocent Iraqis dead.

When I came to this country in 1991, the USA was a symbol of power, freedom, success, other nations admired us.
This month, I was in Hong Kong and China and people are spittin on the USA and our political views. Currently, in India, cannot wait to hear comments here...

But I don't only blame Bush and current administration for the popularity decline of the USA. THe previous leader(s) have played dirty politics too -- Clinton has "tried" to help Albanians in Serbia in 1999, and promised Serbian people to rebuild their country when they turn in Milosevic. THey did it, Clinton's term is over, no one gives a shit about Serbia, we send them $100M in yearly help after we did about $70B in damages over there... And, Kosovo is a very nasty place after we put our hands in it.

Same for Iraq -- it was bad, but it is completely out of control today, and innocent people get the worst out of it.

Those are some pretty intelligent thoughts BTW, I cant begin to tell everyone that travel is one of the most important things if one can afford it...It gives you a sense of what people REALLY think around the world, not what the media feeds you OR what they DONT feed you...

[ksfrogman]

You can't fight an enemy you cannot clearly identify. I think it's asin9 to think otherwise by making our soldiers sitting ducks for target practice in a metropolitan environment.

[BuckJon]

Originally Posted by dr325i

It was f**ked up before but nowhere near to what we did to it!
We should either pack up and leave and admit Bush's stupidity, or increase all available troops and clean the crap and then leave.
In both cases -- it is not what we planned to do initially and not what we were told in a first place...

You can't change what has already happened man, we are here, packing up and leaving would be the worst thing I feel. Yeah it would be nice for me I'd get to go home and not have to worry about this shit, but the result would fuck up the Middle East even more than it is now. Definitely have to manage to help them get some sort of stability before we leave.
Also about the draft there is no reason it would have to include females. I feel females should only be on a volunteer basis. Yeah some can fight and have some balls but not everyone. There are a lot that don't belong out here.
Not to mention how many end up pregnant out here hahah.
Whores!

[just4kickz]

and the right answer is... *DRUM ROLL PLEASE*...


still drumming... cause i sure as hell dont know.

[ghost6]

I think you would have to include females in the draft. If the government doesn't, it's discriminating on the basis of gender.

[Schweitzer]

I wish I could give a cogent response as to what to do. But when I think about it, all I can manage is a vapid stare at the wall with my mouth hanging open, wondering what in the fuck we've gotten ourselves into, and how it's so fucked up on a constellation of levels, and wishing I were oblivious to all of it.

[CA06]

There is no doubt that we have gotten into a war that we did not anticipate, however, we cannot forget that we are not the ones blowing up the innocent. Calling Bush an idoit is an idiotic response. It seemed the Iraqi people were extremly happy when their ruler was removed. The freedom from the former regime that was brought to this region is being subverted by those that do not believe in our same values, or those that the Iraqi people seemed to have wanted.

I don't have an answer to this mess, but, I know that we cannot cut and run. We are fighting a group that will never believe in the same values as our government, so this fight will continue no matter where our troops are, at home or abroad.

I praise the men and women that are defending the Iraqi people and our freedom from an enemy that would love to end our ability to speak as freely as we are doing in this thread.

[dr335is]

Originally Posted by CA06

There is no doubt that we have gotten into a war that we did not anticipate, however, we cannot forget that we are not the ones blowing up the innocent. Calling Bush an idoit is an idiotic response. It seemed the Iraqi people were extremly happy when their ruler was removed. The freedom from the former regime that was brought to this region is being subverted by those that do not believe in our same values, or those that the Iraqi people seemed to have wanted.

I don't have an answer to this mess, but, I know that we cannot cut and run. We are fighting a group that will never believe in the same values as our government, so this fight will continue no matter where our troops are, at home or abroad.

I praise the men and women that are defending the Iraqi people and our freedom from an enemy that would love to end our ability to speak as freely as we are doing in this thread.

First of all, this thread has nothing to do with our soldiers -- they are doing their job, the best they can and God bless them. Second, Bush is an IDIOT! Third -- Bush is a liar! Next -- I don't believe in the values our Gov't does, why would Iraqis??? 65% of US people do not believe in our Gov't beliefs, so...
Iraqi people did want freedom from Hussein, however, all they got is the occupation, so they are fighting it. It is clear to anyone that our occupation is NOT welcome over there. You watch FOX News and CNN videos on your TV in Cali and tell me how people love us for what we did. I watch the news in Europe, China, Japan, Korea, India (Business travels) and see the other, real side of the story.
So, if you can somehow persuade me that removing Hussein was more important than dealing with our internal problems, or making sure N Korea does not have the nukes, or making sure that Iran does not have the nukes, or who knows what else, I will stop calling Bush a liar and an idiot, otherwise...lets just hope not many of our kids (soldiers) and Iraqi innocent people loose their heads in the mess we created...

[BuckJon]

Originally Posted by dr325i

First of all, this thread has nothing to do with our soldiers -- they are doing their job, the best they can and God bless them. Second, Bush is an IDIOT! Third -- Bush is a liar! Next -- I don't believe in the values our Gov't does, why would Iraqis??? 65% of US people do not believe in our Gov't beliefs, so...
Iraqi people did want freedom from Hussein, however, all they got is the occupation, so they are fighting it. It is clear to anyone that our occupation is NOT welcome over there. You watch FOX News and CNN videos on your TV in Cali and tell me how people love us for what we did. I watch the news in Europe, China, Japan, Korea, India (Business travels) and see the other, real side of the story.
So, if you can somehow persuade me that removing Hussein was more important than dealing with our internal problems, or making sure N Korea does not have the nukes, or making sure that Iran does not have the nukes, or who knows what else, I will stop calling Bush a liar and an idiot, otherwise...lets just hope not many of our kids (soldiers) and Iraqi innocent people loose their heads in the mess we created...

I like how you think you see the real side of the story from the news. Why don't you talk to the Iraqi folks dude, come on over here and then you can claim to get the "real story". Yeah there are a shitload of them that don't want us there, but there are also a whole lot of them that we are helping and that DO want us there. Granted, yeah the news over there doesn't have as much of the American bias, it still has its own in some way. Just don't think you know the real story cause you do business travel and watch other news dude. The news isn't everywere out here. In fact they only go to places they think are newsworthy. So until you get your ass out here, don't claim to know the real story.

CA06 said it best
"I don't have an answer to this mess, but, I know that we cannot cut and run. We are fighting a group that will never believe in the same values as our government, so this fight will continue no matter where our troops are, at home or abroad."

[dr335is]

Originally Posted by BuckJon

I like how you think you see the real side of the story from the news. Why don't you talk to the Iraqi folks dude, come on over here and then you can claim to get the "real story". Yeah there are a shitload of them that don't want us there, but there are also a whole lot of them that we are helping and that DO want us there. Granted, yeah the news over there doesn't have as much of the American bias, it still has its own in some way. Just don't think you know the real story cause you do business travel and watch other news dude. The news isn't everywere out here. In fact they only go to places they think are newsworthy. So until you get your ass out here, don't claim to know the real story.

CA06 said it best
"I don't have an answer to this mess, but, I know that we cannot cut and run. We are fighting a group that will never believe in the same values as our government, so this fight will continue no matter where our troops are, at home or abroad."

I do agree with you about the news thing...
The point I was trying to make is that this side of the news make it more realistic that Bush and our censored news do. Of course some people will love us over there, but we all know majority of them do not.

As for my ass out there...I've done my "duty" in another country in 1991, thinking I was protecting it, that is why I am the citizen of the USA now. And I swore I would PROTECT my country (USA), but never said I would OCCUPY other countries. Therefore, you will never see my ass over there in Iraq...

[CA06]

Originally Posted by dr325i

First of all, this thread has nothing to do with our soldiers -- they are doing their job, the best they can and God bless them. Second, Bush is an IDIOT! Third -- Bush is a liar! Next -- I don't believe in the values our Gov't does, why would Iraqis??? 65% of US people do not believe in our Gov't beliefs, so...
Iraqi people did want freedom from Hussein, however, all they got is the occupation, so they are fighting it. It is clear to anyone that our occupation is NOT welcome over there. You watch FOX News and CNN videos on your TV in Cali and tell me how people love us for what we did. I watch the news in Europe, China, Japan, Korea, India (Business travels) and see the other, real side of the story.
So, if you can somehow persuade me that removing Hussein was more important than dealing with our internal problems, or making sure N Korea does not have the nukes, or making sure that Iran does not have the nukes, or who knows what else, I will stop calling Bush a liar and an idiot, otherwise...lets just hope not many of our kids (soldiers) and Iraqi innocent people loose their heads in the mess we created...

Let me first start by saying I truly appreciate your service to this country back in ’91, and I can see that you are very passionate about this subject. Let me be so kind to clarify some points to your comments on what I said and your response.

 First of all, this thread has nothing to do with our soldiers –You’re absolutely correct; this thread has nothing to do with our soldiers. If you reread my point you’d see that I am addressing the freedom of speech that we have, where in other regions people do not share that same freedom

 Second, Bush is an IDIOT! Third -- Bush is a liar!
“Freedom of Speech” – you have your opinion. I can respect that. Can you respect mine? Do you realize that someone in Iraq would have been killed if they said that about Saddam.

 Next – I don't believe in the values our Gov't does, why would Iraqis???
You seem to think that ‘only’ your way is correct. Why would the Iraqis?? If you don’t believe in our Government, you can do something about it, vote. The Iraqi people were given the chance to vote and they turned out in the millions. They elected a government of the people, they drafted a constitution, and they are allowing women rights they never had…

 65% of US people do not believe in our Gov't beliefs, so...
I respectfully disagree. I think the US people disagree with the action of our Gov’t.

 Iraqi people did want freedom from Hussein, however, all they got is the occupation, so they are fighting it.I find this word “occupation” used so much that you’d think we were trying to take over this country. Far from it! I believe, you may think different, that we are only “occupying” this country because of the insurgents that do not want the Iraqi people to have a democracy. If the Iraqi government could be stabilized, I have no doubt in my mind we would leave.

 So, if you can somehow persuade me that removing Hussein was more important than dealing with our internal problems,…
I never said that removing Hussein from power was more important than our internal problems. Yes, we have ‘important’ internal problems that need to be addressed. But I think our government is capable of multitasking, and I’m not just talking about our current administration, I’m talking about our government structure.

 …or making sure N Korea does not have the nukes, or making sure that Iran does not have the nukes, or who knows what else,...
Who do you think owns this problem? What do you suggest the U.S. do? Why does everyone think the U.S. owns the world’s problems, but when the U.S. steps in to do something we are hated for it.

[dr335is]

Originally Posted by CA06

Let me first start by saying I truly appreciate your service to this country back in ’91, and I can see that you are very passionate about this subject. Let me be so kind to clarify some points to your comments on what I said and your response..

By "this country" I did not mean the USA. I served for my birth country... That is why I am so emotional about the wars, because I experienced one...on my soil.

Originally Posted by CA06

 …or making sure N Korea does not have the nukes, or making sure that Iran does not have the nukes, or who knows what else,...
Who do you think owns this problem? What do you suggest the U.S. do? Why does everyone think the U.S. owns the world’s problems, but when the U.S. steps in to do something we are hated for it.

Uhm...because we stuck our noses in every corner of the world. Now that our Gov't realized that it is not so easy and that we're stretched too thin, we ask "Why does everyone expect us to solve all World problems". Well, in the first place if we did not play the world policeman no one would expect that from us. Maybe, if we did not play so ignorant and tough the 911 would have never happened to us? Maybe those assh**es did that to us because of our foreign policy not because of some kind of jealousy that Bush first wanted us to believe...

[bmwbenz0101]

Everyone talks about the fact that we shouldn't be in Iraq in the first place and that it was a dumb war. At this moment in time..after the information we know, it is obvious that the reasons we went were not worht the rewards. Yet we cannot forget. All the info and intel said Iraw had weapons of mass destruction. If you want to believe the bull that Bush lied, go ahead but he didn't. Intelligence all over the world was the same, he didn't lie. It was a smart move, when you think about it. Iraq has tons of oil, Hussien is easy to take out, its at the center of the Middle East, and it gives us lots of power in the region. We are in for a long battle guys, Iraq is just one of the stops on this long war. Iran is next, then lebanon, then north korea. This war will continue for 50 years at least. It is not a war of countries, but a war of ideology. People do not seem to realize how dangerous these islamic extremists are. The problem is that they aren't afraid to die, and will fight dirty. The war in iraq is not a war. Its a bunch of muslim gangs fighting eachother over differences in religions. THere are no uniformed soilders, there are no rules, these people will kill anyone to get anything done. That is the danger. Until these people learn to love their childern more than they hate their enemies, they will continue to fight. If we don't stop the movement now, our children will, and the circumstances will be much worse. Now Bush, hes not the greatest president, but he is not nearly as bad as everyone believes. Unemployment is at an all time low, the stock market is doing great,and we cut the deficit in half. Yet hundreds of people die everyday in Iraq and there seems no end to this in the future. People are impatient. The US government took a decade to form, and changes are still bing made in our law system today. A successful government cannot be created in just a few years. It takes time. While I hate to see the numbers of troops die everyday, I thank g-d that its happening now and not later. There is no democratic solution to this problem guys. They don't want to make deals. They want us to die, for Israel to die, and for Western Civilization to die. Unfortunately, we have to fight these people. Whats so ironic to me is that after reading many books on Islam, I have found that it is an extremely peaceful religion. Unfortunately the extremists have given Islam as a representation of being a violent religion which it is not.

[dr335is]

Originally Posted by bmwbenz0101

Everyone talks about the fact that we shouldn't be in Iraq in the first place and that it was a dumb war. At this moment in time..after the information we know, it is obvious that the reasons we went were not worht the rewards. Yet we cannot forget. All the info and intel said Iraw had weapons of mass destruction. If you want to believe the bull that Bush lied, go ahead but he didn't. Intelligence all over the world was the same, he didn't lie. It was a smart move, when you think about it. Iraq has tons of oil, Hussien is easy to take out, its at the center of the Middle East, and it gives us lots of power in the region. We are in for a long battle guys, Iraq is just one of the stops on this long war. Iran is next, then lebanon, then north korea. This war will continue for 50 years at least. It is not a war of countries, but a war of ideology. People do not seem to realize how dangerous these islamic extremists are. The problem is that they aren't afraid to die, and will fight dirty. The war in iraq is not a war. Its a bunch of muslim gangs fighting eachother over differences in religions. THere are no uniformed soilders, there are no rules, these people will kill anyone to get anything done. That is the danger. Until these people learn to love their childern more than they hate their enemies, they will continue to fight. If we don't stop the movement now, our children will, and the circumstances will be much worse. Now Bush, hes not the greatest president, but he is not nearly as bad as everyone believes. Unemployment is at an all time low, the stock market is doing great,and we cut the deficit in half. Yet hundreds of people die everyday in Iraq and there seems no end to this in the future. People are impatient. The US government took a decade to form, and changes are still bing made in our law system today. A successful government cannot be created in just a few years. It takes time. While I hate to see the numbers of troops die everyday, I thank g-d that its happening now and not later. There is no democratic solution to this problem guys. They don't want to make deals. They want us to die, for Israel to die, and for Western Civilization to die. Unfortunately, we have to fight these people. Whats so ironic to me is that after reading many books on Islam, I have found that it is an extremely peaceful religion. Unfortunately the extremists have given Islam as a representation of being a violent religion which it is not.

1 Q for you -- was all that intel ever shown to the public??? I would like to see it all, where not only US and UK intel points to the WMD but also other intel services. Otherwise, I don't believe a word GWB says...

[Driv3r]

Dr325i, i got to hand it to you, i coulndt have said it better myself....you really know what is REALLY happening in the world today, not by what FOX or CNN is feeding to us.

We just need to have more open minded people in todays world that dont immediatly beleive everything they hear, and at least question things sometimes. To call the american population ignorant is wrong, they are just misinformed to a great extent IMO.