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View Poll Results: WHO MAKE THE BEST S65 S/C KIT
G-POWER 10 13.16%
ESS 40 52.63%
GINTANI 30 39.47%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 76. You may not vote on this poll

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      01-18-2010, 12:14 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by PencilGeek View Post
This thead is a poll. It is not about you. The concensus of the respondants is to measure using all of the above: 1/4 mile, mexico, canyon, 60-130. I'm offering a solution that takes all of those into account (except canyons) and is much more real-world than ANY of the means used to measure any of the demanded measurements. Like I said, show me next time you roll up to a light in your DR's and burn out the tires before it turns green.
No, you are offering a solution that best caters to you because you have not been able to post any noteworthy numbers in the 1/4 mile or 60-130. You are hoping the mile will now finally be the answer. Like I said, you don't need to do a burnout to run a high trap speed which would be reflected in the real world, not on the dyno. I would like to see ESS apply something other than on the dyno.

How is the mile more real world than the 1/4 mile or 1/8 mile? You won't see how you are hooking up, no 60 foot. You won't see your 1/8 mile, no idea how you will do under 100 mph. You won't see your 1/4 or have an ET.

The Mile makes absolutely no sense for those looking for performance on the street especially considering you damn well better have the proper tires for a top end run. Additionally, aerodynamics start playing a huge factor. If you are racing the point your Cd is affecting the outcome, sounds like you need to stop as you are going to kill someone.


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You cannot do this legally, and not with minimum risk to innocent bystanders. I've always said I want legal and scientifically valid results. Drag races give you a 12-second window of 80+ % driver ability, and 20% car ability. Sorry, that's not the least bit impressive to me.
Drag races give you a 12 second window of 80% driver ability and 20% car? Hehe, what? This does not make sense and I have never even heard anything like that. If you have a poor ET, you should still have a trap that shows the power which is not 80% dependent on driver ability. Who calculated that anyway?



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Double standard. You don't have DR's and do burn outs at a stop light before racing the guy next to you. It's really that simple. Show me what that beast will do in the REAL WORLD, and show me in a scientific and SAFE environment.
Hmmm, well, the drag strip is not a scientific and SAFE environment? You don't have to do a burn out and you don't have to run drag radials to have real world performance. You do have to run drag radials to get 1.8 and under 60 foots, stock power or not.

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Basically, one crowd is older and more mature and puts less importance in things like street-light racing, and the other crowd is very young and prefers to drag race. I prefer to set my sights higher, much higher. As Mike Matusow said in the World Series of Poker a few years ago: "kiddie games...down the hall." That's how I feel about 1/4 mile drag racing...and that's why I'm intrigued by the Mojave and Texas Mile.
Basically, one crowd is slower I don't think street-light racing is what it is about. Actually, maturity is shown by keeping it on the strip or the track and not on the street. The issue you have with 1/4 mile drag racing is that it seems you will not be able to compete in this venue. If you want to do the mile, that is your business, but there is no reason a car can't do both. Additionally, many members that are older understand that a slip means far more than a dyno. It has nothing do with maturity but with reality.



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I'm really not sure where this impression of lackluster performance has stemmed from. It certainly hasn't been taken from any of the press reviews. It hasn't been taken from any of the non-owners who have driven the car and posted their driving impressions. Certainly not by Forum Wars -- because those results aren't yet known to the public. Certainly not by 1/4 mile drag times, because none exist. So what does that leave? Bootleg videos of street races and 60-130MPH runs on the freeways with traffic? HA! I'll settle for any 60-130 runs you can show me by other 6MT's. Eugene is the only other 6MT 60-130 run that I know of. He posted 12.66, and I was 11.05. But somehow 11.05 is lackluster compared to the 12.66. That's what you call lackluster?
Press reviews and driving impressions are not the same as performance numbers. I'm sure many people love the feel, but many have been disappointed with the performance posted thus far. So the stroker posted 11.05? And DCT's with bolt on's are in the 10's? Yes, I would call that lackluster especially considering SC'd cars in the single digits 12.66 to 11.05 is really rather minute, I would expect sub 10.

Quote:
If the point is to test the car and not the driver, then you're absolutely right I prefer the mile. You guys who piss and moan about stroker performance want it to prove itself. So when the opportunity comes along for it to do exactly that...prove ITSELF instead of the driver...then it's somehow insignificant to you. That's the self-definition of a double standard.
No, you created this standard for yourself now. The 1/4 mile does both, as even if you launch poorly the power will show through the traps. You can accomplish both, but the mile will show off more than the motor, such as the gearing and how well BMW did in the wind tunnel. Performance beyond 130 is just not something people will see regularly. Regardless, I would expect someone serious to post numbers in every venue.

Quote:
Since burn outs aren't allowed at the Mojave Mile, and you prefer real world testing, I'm really surprised you're not all over this and immediately agreeing to the challenge and opportunity. 1/4 mile drag racing is as far from real world testing as it can get. Once again, it's the same double standard.
Burnouts are not allowed at the Mojave airport? Texas allows it, what a shame. Something about scuffing up the tarmac I would imagine? What is the challenge exactly? It is far more challenging to go 10's than run the mile as several factors need to work in concert. Anyone can run top end.

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Again and again, we get back to a comparison of stroker vs. SC that's never been made or even alleged by anybody owning the stroker. There's really no point in this comparison, and it's very sad that the SC guys feel the need to regularly bring it up. I only care what my car will do on a given day in a controlled and safe environment.
I think a comparison between the SC and stroker is going to be very important to anyone willing to spend 10's of thousands of dollars and should be done. This is a comparison that must be made to get a complete picture, but I agree no stroker owner has sought this comparison and I do not think this would solely establish one as better than the other for everyone, different strokes for different folks

Last edited by Rectify; 01-18-2010 at 12:45 AM.
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      01-18-2010, 12:32 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by PencilGeek View Post


You are fooling yourself if you think the thermals weren't calculated and tested on the DCT and then retrofitted for the 6MT vs. the other way around. What you are suggesting is exactly the opposite of proper design and testing methodology. It also assumes the DCT was an engineering afterthought, even though all of the contemporary press releases made clear that the DCT was a flagship product.
I'm sure BMW calculated they could get away with using the same cooler, and they did. I'm sure this is the same BMW team that calculated they could get away with improper bearings on the S54. Seems they have a history of making mistakes on flagship products The decision was one based on cost, not on giving the DCT the best option possible.




Quote:
Overheating doesn't prove undersized cooler. You said an undersized cooler has been "established." Overheating doesn't "establish" anything. A SIB or recall would suffice. Post the SIB or recall, or drop the issue.
This does not make sense to me. Proof is once a recall is issued? So there are no issues before that? They suddenly appear once the recall is issued? I will not drop it because I have hands on experience with this particular issue. Overheating even at the stock power level or on the track definitely establishes there is an issue. Several people have posted about it. Is the only time you are willing to acknowledge it when and if BMW ever recalls it? The S54 was perfect until BMW issued a recall, right? Are you willing to acknowledge it is the same cooler as the manual transmission? Are you willing to acknowledge DCT members have gone into limp mode due to the tranny overheating on the strip, street, and track?



Quote:
It seems that you don't realize that you're complaining that ESS has a repeat pattern of UNDERSTATING their performance. I think Roman has made this exact point on many occasions. Since you seem to think that uncorrected dyno charts are a benefit to ESS, you're clearly not understanding how the SAE correction formulas work. So let this chart demonstrate something about SAE 1349 correction. Holding barometric pressure and humidity constant at the SAE 1349 reference points (29.92, and 0%), we get the following correction factors with temperature:
ESS has not stated performance yet. They have posted overstated dyno numbers, yes, but no performance figures of any kind. You can post a million charts but did ESS not just post a corrected figure that was far less than the uncorrected figure? Why is this not supporting you?

All the SC'd cars will end up at around the same number at the same boost. The second ESS dyno proves it.



Quote:
So you see, depending on the temperature, posting uncorrected dyno charts HURT ESS, not help them. Posting uncorrected charts for anything that was measured above 60 degrees farenheit hurts them. Once you get up to 100 degrees, it hurts them by more than 4%. So quit complaining about this because you're really complaining that they're actually stronger, not weaker than they claim.
Does not make any sense to me when the corrected numbers are weaker and the uncorrected numbers are stronger. I'm sure conditions can exist where what you say can take place but that clearly did not happen here. Does not make any sense to me when ESS hand picks the uncorrected figure that is higher to post. Why not post the lower, corrected figure if not looking to brag about peak numbers? Does not make any sense to me when I have seen SC'd cars dyno'd and the corrected numbers match up and the uncorrected posted numbers don't. Maybe some trap speeds from ESS would help so we don't have to play the dyno game? I am a bit leery of accepting ESS dyno numbers at this point especially considering we have different charts, some SAE, some DIN, some corrected, some uncorrected, floating around and people quoting inflated numbers without realizing it. Having numbers on the strip and the dyno is better than only having one. Especially considering some tuners use a completely different dyno. Having a customer with a completed, street driven car go to a third party would be great as well.
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      01-18-2010, 12:58 AM   #91
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      01-18-2010, 01:35 AM   #92
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This time around we rented Las Vegas Motor Speedway this year for Mfest IV (April 16-18) for all participants (Track, Autocross and car show all in one site) and have invited tuners and manufacturers aswell to join the "Tuner lap" ( around mid day we will shut down the track and just let the tuners/manufacturers inside track )...we'll have a fine array of tuners that will showcase and will debut their products...i'll post the list up soon




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Quote:
Originally Posted by PencilGeek View Post
How so? Did MFest organizers rent a drag strip, track, or airport runway this year? Or is the "excellent time to do this" on the street?
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      01-18-2010, 01:44 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by laidback View Post
This time around we rented Las Vegas Motor Speedway this year for Mfest IV (April 16-18) for all participants (Track, Autocross and car show all in one site) and have invited tuners and manufacturers aswell to join the "Tuner lap" ( around mid day we will shut down the track and just let the tuners/manufacturers inside track )...we'll have a fine array of tuners that will showcase and will debut their products...i'll post the list up soon

Did you not rent the drag strip again?
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      01-18-2010, 01:47 AM   #94
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We wont have the drag this year, NHRA reserved the drag stip first but the track will be plenty for everyone to see some action

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rectify View Post
Did you not rent the drag strip again?
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      01-18-2010, 01:53 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by PencilGeek View Post
Let's keep it simple this time. Your opinon doesn't constitute an established problem by BMW. I gave you two ways out. You chose neither. Case closed.

While the SAE corrections are complicated formulae, how they are applied are not. You simply take the UNCORRECTED value, and multiply it by the correction factor. An uncorrected value when measured above 60 degrees farenheit will get larger once multiplied by the CF. An uncorrected value when measured below 60 degrees farenheit will get smaller once multiplied by the CF. Seriously, this is 3rd grade math. Quit accusing people of cheating dyno charts if you can't offer proof by way of examples or simple 3rd grade math.

You think you understand this, and you tell me that you just want to correct the record. But in order to do so, you need to know what you're talking about. This is one case where you are as far off as you could possibly be. You're doing harm to your benefactor. You need to stop this now.
Case closed? I'm sorry, but your opinion does not constitute that a problem has not been established. Hands on experience clearly shows the cooler is not enough. People who own the actual cars have had issues. You have a 6MT, you do not have hands on experience. The part number is clearly the same, it is the same cooler as the manual. This is a fact, case is definitely closed in this respect as you refuse to acknowledge that a manual tranny cooler is not enough for a DCT that will be run on the track.

Proof? The proof is that ESS posted the higher chart not the lower chart. Proof is the second chart having lower numbers. Are you just honestly going to sit around and ignore this? How are you disregarding that of the two charts posted the uncorrected chart has much higher peak numbers?

Does it really matter that during a blizzard the math may favor one over the other? We are talking about what actually has taken place.

ESS just admitted their standard kit will be in the 510 wheel range, polar opposite from 630 wheel. If they do not want to brag why post the uncorrected inflated numbers?

I'm sure I'll have a ban shortly for not following your "options" We know how that goes, opinions can only go one way and do not disagree.

I don't respond particularly well to having things dictated to me just because I am not one of the sheep. I disagree with your assessment, vehemently, and I think you can apply what you have stated to your support of ESS.
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      01-18-2010, 01:55 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by laidback View Post
We wont have the drag this year, NHRA reserved the drag stip first but the track will be plenty for everyone to see some action
So you once again pick a date where the NHRA gets it and you don't? Didn't you say last year you would not make the same mistake?
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      01-18-2010, 01:55 AM   #97
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sticky=rectify right?
No. Sticky is in California. Rectify is in Canada.



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      01-18-2010, 01:57 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by PencilGeek View Post
Since Alex @ Gintani rarely comes on the forums and answer the questions himself, you and your friends become the defacto spokesmen for Gintani. Gratuitously attacking other companies is probably doing irreparable harm to Gintani. You really don't see ESS customers, or AA customers, or other company customers on the forums taking gratuitous attacks on other vendors. It's exactly what got Lemans_Blue and JonMartin banned here before.

This is why I believe it does irreparable harm to Gintani to have these types of threads -- not because of what is said (that's all fair game), but because of how it's said, and by whom says it. People sitting on the fence and considering Gintani products will take one look at a thread like this, and say "I don't want to be associated with "THAT" crowd." So instead of attacking people like LBM for talking strictly about FI designs, and instead of attacking other vendors who aren't even a legitimate target of these gratuitous attacks, think about how this hurts the company you're trying to help. I'd prefer Alex to succeed or fail based on the strength or weaknesses of his product, not because he loses sales due to his vociferous devotees.
This statement is very true. Sad really, because Gintani has some real quality products. But at times some of the hardcare Gintani followers just leave a bad taste in your mouth. I doubt the individuals actually care, but what PG said has some real truth to it.
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      01-18-2010, 02:16 AM   #99
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Sorry guys!

honestly I just wanted to see what people think and sometimes it can lead to arguments. This I can understand!

But I would like to say thanks for all the comments. I am sure all 3 companies are great at what they do!

I think the hardcore people for both companies are great guys and I feel they should have been banned. But that is just me!

I personally got the G-power kit because of the look and feel like a company that can back up their mistakes deserves a 2nd chance.

Hope Mfest can bring my questions to rest and everyone else who has more questions on the S/C kits on the market.

Maybe by that time more companies will have S/C kits on the streets for us to enjoy.
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      01-18-2010, 05:11 AM   #100
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Last year not alot of guys and sponsors wanted the drag as it'll be too hard for the cars (they don't wanna be picking/trailing cars back ), there's a reason behind for the set dates for Mfest IV but will be explained with another thread...but as far as doing a drag day? were working one soon (here in Socal) watch out for that one aswell...btw to OP who started the thread sorry, dont wanna thread jack


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So you once again pick a date where the NHRA gets it and you don't? Didn't you say last year you would not make the same mistake?
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      01-18-2010, 07:22 AM   #101
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This thread should be kind of funny once everyone starts arguing.....

just like which exhaust is better, or which angel eyes...
Told you this thread would get funny forum is full of endless arguing over which company is best.
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      01-18-2010, 09:42 AM   #102
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who is best? well i believe this year at MFEST there is going to be a vendor shootout so everyone will see first hand who is best. should be sick!
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      01-18-2010, 01:21 PM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PencilGeek View Post

This is why I believe it does irreparable harm to Gintani to have these types of threads -- not because of what is said (that's all fair game), but because of how it's said, and by whom says it. People sitting on the fence and considering Gintani products will take one look at a thread like this, and say "I don't want to be associated with "THAT" crowd." So instead of attacking people like LBM for talking strictly about FI designs, and instead of attacking other vendors who aren't even a legitimate target of these gratuitous attacks, think about how this hurts the company you're trying to help. I'd prefer Alex to succeed or fail based on the strength or weaknesses of his product, not because he loses sales due to his vociferous devotees.
I have to agree...
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