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      01-13-2010, 09:03 PM   #1
ScheerSpeed
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Bimmerworld stage 1 brake kit??

http://store.bimmerworld.com/shared/...t=products.asp

scroll down until you see INTRODUCTORY SPECIAL
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      01-13-2010, 09:06 PM   #2
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linky no workie

I'm not sure how much just rotors will help - when its our single piston caliper design and alloy that seems to overheat the rotor and pad at the track
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      01-13-2010, 09:11 PM   #3
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linky no workie

I'm not sure how much just rotors will help - when its our single piston caliper design and alloy that seems to overheat the rotor and pad at the track
you have to scroll down until you see where it says introductory special stage 1 brake kit.
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      01-13-2010, 09:17 PM   #4
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now it works -- hmmm??

Anyways, save ur dough and get a full BBK
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      01-13-2010, 09:24 PM   #5
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now it works -- hmmm??

Anyways, save ur dough and get a full BBK
no way ill be able to save that much... i spend my money too fast :P
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      01-14-2010, 09:22 PM   #6
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ur only $1200 away from a BBK kit that will outperform ur OE Caliper setup with the PF Rotors

http://www.zeckhausen.com/BMW/E92_M3.htm
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      01-20-2010, 11:10 AM   #7
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Bit of a dissappointment, especially coming from Bimmerworld.
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      01-20-2010, 04:02 PM   #8
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Not understanding why it is a disappointment?

PFC rotors are CAST AND MACHINED in the US - versus China. The tolerances are incredibly tight and way better than you will find on a entry-level BBK (and most high end BBK) - they just happen to be stock size.

I ran the stock brakes on our car with PFC track pads and stainless lines ONLY - stock rotors. I was turning times at VIR, Road Atlanta, and Sebring over multiple weekends that would put me at the top 1/3 of a Club Racing grid and doing lots of sessions and laps per event. I never had any issues and nothing indicated that the stock calipers are not capable with the right parts?

Not sure how many people on this board are our long-time customers or have dealt with me on the race side of things enough to know how I run the business, so I will explain. Not one of our business or parts decisions is made with profitibility as the top concern or even a major component. Not great for us in the sense that we aren't maximizing our profit margins, but I feel it is very good for us in that we don't sell watered-down parts because of how much money we can make.

PFC didn't offer these rotors to us. I pushed hard since before delivery of our car in May of 2008 to have them made and it took me 1.5 years of a lot of calls, visits, and general effort to make it happen. I did it because I am familiar with the product, I have used it in a variety of applications, and I wanted to be able to offer it to our customers. It is an extremely high quality part and is an exact fit for the person that doesn't want to buy a brake kit and still wants a nice jump in performance.

Feel free to back up any opinions or ask questions - I am happy to tell it like it is.

James
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      01-20-2010, 04:30 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesC View Post
Not understanding why it is a disappointment?

PFC rotors are CAST AND MACHINED in the US - versus China. The tolerances are incredibly tight and way better than you will find on a entry-level BBK (and most high end BBK) - they just happen to be stock size.

I ran the stock brakes on our car with PFC track pads and stainless lines ONLY - stock rotors. I was turning times at VIR, Road Atlanta, and Sebring over multiple weekends that would put me at the top 1/3 of a Club Racing grid and doing lots of sessions and laps per event. I never had any issues and nothing indicated that the stock calipers are not capable with the right parts?

Not sure how many people on this board are our long-time customers or have dealt with me on the race side of things enough to know how I run the business, so I will explain. Not one of our business or parts decisions is made with profitibility as the top concern or even a major component. Not great for us in the sense that we aren't maximizing our profit margins, but I feel it is very good for us in that we don't sell watered-down parts because of how much money we can make.

PFC didn't offer these rotors to us. I pushed hard since before delivery of our car in May of 2008 to have them made and it took me 1.5 years of a lot of calls, visits, and general effort to make it happen. I did it because I am familiar with the product, I have used it in a variety of applications, and I wanted to be able to offer it to our customers. It is an extremely high quality part and is an exact fit for the person that doesn't want to buy a brake kit and still wants a nice jump in performance.

Feel free to back up any opinions or ask questions - I am happy to tell it like it is.

James
Do you have a proper brake cooling kit for the E9X yet?
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      01-20-2010, 04:39 PM   #10
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Do you have a proper brake cooling kit for the E9X yet?
I will have something middle of this year from our race program.
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      01-21-2010, 01:06 AM   #11
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Hi James, do the PFC rotors run cooler than the stock rotors? Do big brake kits give you any shorter stopping distances or more stability under braking on the track over stock calipers (assuming proper race pads are used in both)?
I haven't lost faith in my stock brakes yet.
Put me on the list for your ducting kit.
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      01-21-2010, 10:25 AM   #12
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I am with JamesC here re: stock brakes. No doubt a high quality BBK will increase various aspects of braking performance (although I significantly doubt that it will decrease stopping distances much--assuming nothing is cooked). But to think that the stock setup is not good enough for HPDE participants is actually over the top IMO.

I say that as someone who ended up fading the stock setup and going off at WGI, but that was because of the HT10s self destructing and me doing too many hot laps in a row during long sessions. Barring such errors on my part ("bad" pad selection and over-pushing a street car), I could outbrake most cars I came up against in the advanced groups--including many lightweight stripped track cars.

I've been in bone stock E9X M3s driven by highly competent racers, and observed the same thing. So, this BBK emphasis is overblown IMO. Again, not to say that one would not benefit from a BBK, but one's money is probably better spent on attending more track days and improving driving skills rather than dropping $6k on a kit--unless $6k is of little financial consequence or you happen to be a really skilled driver who can really use the extra performance.

These rotors make a whole lot of sense to me. In theory, they should offer better cooling than OEM. Ducting would of course help a great deal. It is amazing that an M car weighing as much as it does ended up getting shipped without some kind of forced brake cooling.

If the objections are regarding pricing on bimmerworld's kit, I guess that is another story. I haven't worked through the numbers, but it sounds like it comes with F&R PFC pads, F&R SS lines, and fluid. The rotors seems to be $500 each. That sounds somewhat steep indeed. I think I paid $300 per OEM front rotor last summer after I went through the ones that came with car, which is a lot to begin with. These weren't available then. If they were ~$400, they'd be more attractive.
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      01-21-2010, 12:11 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucid View Post
I am with JamesC here re: stock brakes. No doubt a high quality BBK will increase various aspects of braking performance (although I significantly doubt that it will decrease stopping distances much--assuming nothing is cooked). But to think that the stock setup is not good enough for HPDE participants is actually over the top IMO.

I say that as someone who ended up fading the stock setup and going off at WGI, but that was because of the HT10s self destructing and me doing too many hot laps in a row during long sessions. Barring such errors on my part ("bad" pad selection and over-pushing a street car), I could outbrake most cars I came up against in the advanced groups--including many lightweight stripped track cars.

I've been in bone stock E9X M3s driven by highly competent racers, and observed the same thing. So, this BBK emphasis is overblown IMO. Again, not to say that one would not benefit from a BBK, but one's money is probably better spent on attending more track days and improving driving skills rather than dropping $6k on a kit--unless $6k is of little financial consequence or you happen to be a really skilled driver who can really use the extra performance.

These rotors make a whole lot of sense to me. In theory, they should offer better cooling than OEM. Ducting would of course help a great deal. It is amazing that an M car weighing as much as it does ended up getting shipped without some kind of forced brake cooling.

If the objections are regarding pricing on bimmerworld's kit, I guess that is another story. I haven't worked through the numbers, but it sounds like it comes with F&R PFC pads, F&R SS lines, and fluid. The rotors seems to be $500 each. That sounds somewhat steep indeed. I think I paid $300 per OEM front rotor last summer after I went through the ones that came with car, which is a lot to begin with. These weren't available then. If they were ~$400, they'd be more attractive.
I am pretty sure that I am going to go with this setup instead of going with a BBK for a few different reasons.I never did have really bad problems with the stock brakes even with the stock pads & fluid that I was able to complete a 30 minute session on a demanding track with realativly quick laptimes.The biggest issue has been pad transfer which has caused a lot of rotor runout which I find quite irritating but the car still stops.
I think with this rotor & the PFC 01 pads & hopefully some proper brake cooling this will more than sufficent for my needs for this year.I do not feel like paying the money for a BBK when I am not sure how long I will be using this car on track and there is 0 return on the cost when you go to sell the car.
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      01-21-2010, 02:16 PM   #14
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Quote:
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I am with JamesC here re: stock brakes. No doubt a high quality BBK will increase various aspects of braking performance (although I significantly doubt that it will decrease stopping distances much--assuming nothing is cooked).
When I asked the question of shorter stopping distances, I was thinking along the lines that bias could be sent more towards the rear with an aftermarket kit. I felt this difference with my stoptechs on my 350Z. In fact, the stock rears wore out much faster when I put on the front stoptech's which validates this assumption.

I just read the description of the PFC big brake kit on Bimmerworld and they actually mention more rear bias and shorter stopping distances so it looks like I'm on to something..

I'm not so sure I felt the same as you that I was outbraking anyone in the M3. I felt that the stopping distance was kind of long and that I didn't have the stability that I would have liked. Maybe it's the fact that I was coming from a lighter car with brake upgrades, or maybe because I was getting to much higher speeds before the brake zones. I have to brake a the 3 and 4 marker rather than the 2 and 3 marker of my Z.

For me the weak link on the M3 is the rotors cracking. Not really much fade since I'm using proper race pads and fluid. Come to think of it, pre-ducting I used to throw my old stoptech rotors away because of cracking long before I wore them out. After ducting, the cracking was reduced enough to acutally wear out the rotors. Seems like I'm treading that same fine line with the stock rotors. Ducting will hopefully be all I need.
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      01-21-2010, 02:33 PM   #15
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They should run cooler than stock, but to me this isn't a huge issue. I really don't have a strong issue with stock rotors as I ran them on our car with a proper pad with zero issues. High temps are rarely the ultimate issue as long as that temp is within the operating range of the pad you are using. Some places we work hard to get our brakes up to this temp, although that is less the case in a higher power heavy production car.

Shorter stopping distances are a result of more precision and control - just like when you upgrade your suspension to take out slop it works better. So everything along this route helps. There are some absolute junk brake kits out there that I don't feel will perform as well as the stock brakes even - a BBK is not a checkbox with one flavor. So better rotor tolerances and quality, less slop in the caliper (fixed helps when it isn't paired with junk calipers), stiffer calipers (and lighter - a balancing act), etc all do this.

Given an average BBK with a cast 2-piece caliper (fixed) and Chinese made rotors, the stopping distances will decrease. Put on a PFC kit with a 1-piece forged caliper with less flex and tighter tolerances on all components, it will decrease more. Amounts depend on the rest of the car too since it is translated through the suspension. We did a lot of back to back testing on our World Challenge cars which are somewhat close to production engineering but with almost all slop removed that you can from a production platform, and you see the differences. In a street car - not quite as much. I did a test for Grassroots Motorsports recently with data on our M3 and a stock M3 and our car with a PFC 4-wheel kit went a tick deeper - definitely worth about 1 second per lap, but the stock car wasn't that shabby.

A PFC rotor (for a BBK or jsut the Direc Drive street upgrade) has some pretty insane tolerances on metalurgy, design, finishing, etc. Just an example (one of many and I don't have time to write a book) - PFC rotors have no balancing weights or machining. The rotor is cast oversized, EVERY external surface is finished (including OD and ID of the vein area), and a very smart system of machines places the rotor casting in the CNC so that when the machining is done the balance is perfect. This means that when it heats up - the balance doesn't change even slightly.

I wish the parts cost less as well, but it is a big casting and a lot of machining, so its in there. If even the OEM stuff did just the machining component, the cost would be higher and on par. You can buy OEM brake pads for less than a performance pad, OEM shocks are by far cheaper than our Moton sets, etc, etc. This rotor IS a performance rotor with real definable performance and quality characteristics, so maybe it is the lack of buy-in on that concept that makes you compare them to stock part price? But after initial purchase with includes a reusable center hat, the incremental replacement cost is less than $300:

http://store.bimmerworld.com/Product907
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      01-21-2010, 02:40 PM   #16
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Thanks for the explanation James. Just what I was looking for.
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      01-21-2010, 03:23 PM   #17
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Good stuff James!Thanks
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      01-21-2010, 06:25 PM   #18
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Quote:
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When I asked the question of shorter stopping distances, I was thinking along the lines that bias could be sent more towards the rear with an aftermarket kit. I felt this difference with my stoptechs on my 350Z. In fact, the stock rears wore out much faster when I put on the front stoptech's which validates this assumption.

I just read the description of the PFC big brake kit on Bimmerworld and they actually mention more rear bias and shorter stopping distances so it looks like I'm on to something..

I'm not so sure I felt the same as you that I was outbraking anyone in the M3. I felt that the stopping distance was kind of long and that I didn't have the stability that I would have liked. Maybe it's the fact that I was coming from a lighter car with brake upgrades, or maybe because I was getting to much higher speeds before the brake zones. I have to brake a the 3 and 4 marker rather than the 2 and 3 marker of my Z.

For me the weak link on the M3 is the rotors cracking. Not really much fade since I'm using proper race pads and fluid. Come to think of it, pre-ducting I used to throw my old stoptech rotors away because of cracking long before I wore them out. After ducting, the cracking was reduced enough to acutally wear out the rotors. Seems like I'm treading that same fine line with the stock rotors. Ducting will hopefully be all I need.
You have a point about the rear bias. I meant to write, "I doubt that the stopping distances will be significantly reduced", not "I significantly doubt...", so it is a matter of what you consider to be significant and what you are doing with the car exactly. For just tooling around in HPDEs, I don't see any issues in terms of stopping distances. I wasn't outbraking everyone or anything, but I was outbraking, or at least keeping up with, most cars in the advanved groups in the braking zones; E46 M3s, 911S, C6, etc. Many people get on the brakes too early and softly...

I am sure stopping distances will decrease somewhat with suspension and other traction upgrades, but the question is around cost/benefit for me. I might move up to a BBK eventually, and I'm sure I'd like it, but is it worth the $6k at this time? Not for me...

But it seems like anyone who reads a negative post/thread on the brakes is jumping on the "I need a BBK on the track" wagon, which sounds overdone to me.
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      01-21-2010, 06:32 PM   #19
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Quote:
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But it seems like anyone who reads a negative post/thread on the brakes is jumping on the "I need a BBK on the track" wagon, which sounds overdone to me.
Agree with that...

Just like moving bias to the rear will help, moving it more to the front will hurt, and unfortunately that is where a lot of BBKs end up - until (and only maybe then) you do the rear also.
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      01-22-2010, 10:19 AM   #20
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This kit looks like exactly what i need for track events for my E90 M3! I was actually just going to get pads/fluid but this combo looks perfect. I will most likely be purchasing this kit within the next two months. How long is the introduction special lasting? Now i just need to determine which pads to get. Excellent job James.

P.S. I had the OEM CSL kit on my E46M3 and it worked flawlesly 99% of the time with Pagid yellows and proper fluid at limerock (about 20 or so events) so i have complete faith in the overall OEM design for track events.
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      01-22-2010, 10:45 AM   #21
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Length undetermined. The rotors are pricier than I would like so I may leave it for a fairly long duration.
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      01-22-2010, 10:47 AM   #22
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Length undetermined. The rotors are pricier than I would like so I may leave it for a fairly long duration.
Ok great. Any plans to release a track wheel/tire combo? I will also have to purchase this set this spring. I guess the D-Force LTW5 with NT01's would be nice. Is 18x9.5 all around the way to go?
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