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      01-14-2007, 07:37 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Norsk View Post
You're probably right it does not seem to make much sense, but BMW likes to make sure a car is ready for the public and will not rush it's release just because of what the competition is doing. Other manufactures do this, but BMW like to make sure a car is ready and is as reliable as possible.

If they don't sell it right away it's because the car or factory tooling is not totally ready. If you remember, I think they introduced the N54 Twin turbo engine in Geneva last year (March I think), but the first car with it, the E92 was only available to delivery to customers in September and the E90 335i was kept under cover quite a bit and first deliveries where in October.



It was the same thing with the E46 M3, they showed what they called the M3 Concept in Geneva (All windows tinted, including the Windshield) and 6 months later the final product in Frankfurt.

They took it around the world in the summer, as I remember getting a invitation from a Canadian dealer to see and give feedback on it.

With so much electronics in the cars and high performance engines, they like to finalize all their little test and also gauge customer perception on the car so that they can tweak the final bits on the car as well as the final launch/Marketing strategy

Just look at the killer success with the 335i (5-6 months waiting lists on ordered cars) my local dealer has one on lot (Automatic) no dealer in town has one for the next 5 moths ... all sold.

Seems a verry good explanation to me

Off course it`s whishfull thinking .............................hoping it`s ready to sell in March
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      01-14-2007, 10:19 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post
... Of course this is of course if everything runs to schedule in which delays may be inevitable if the development of a problem or delay appears. Although you are seeing almost finished cars on the streets , The development phase known as FEP continues right up to launch - The development programme for this car is very intensive it's a bit like a strict physical requirement for an elite military unit.

Keep the first week of March free in your diary.
Found that on m5board:

"I was in Germany last week and spoke with a guy that works as a designer for BMW. He told me that the 335 engine had been detuned so it would not cast a shadow on the upcoming V8 M3 engine. He also said that they are having problems with the new M3 engine and it´s not putting out the power that they had predicted..."
[source: http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/sho...6&postcount=20 ]

So it could be there's (maybe still) a problem with the V8 not putting out the desired power!!! Whereas I hope that's only a unfounded rumour it could cause a massive delay if it turns out to be right!! Maybe Scott can hush a bit!??

Best regards, south
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      01-14-2007, 10:50 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by southlight View Post
Found that on m5board:

"I was in Germany last week and spoke with a guy that works as a designer for BMW. He told me that the 335 engine had been detuned so it would not cast a shadow on the upcoming V8 M3 engine. He also said that they are having problems with the new M3 engine and itīs not putting out the power that they had predicted..."

So it could be there's (maybe still) a problem with the V8 not putting out the desired power!!! Whereas I hope that's only a unfounded rumour it could cause a massive delay if it turns out to be right!! Maybe Scott can hush a bit!??

Best regards, south
Better delay than a bad/ insufficiant engine..................It`s gonna be allright I think, they will come up with a good solution, no doubt what so ever.
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      01-14-2007, 11:56 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by southlight View Post
... the 335 engine had been detuned so it would not cast a shadow on the upcoming V8 M3 engine. He also said that they are having problems with the new M3 engine and itīs not putting out the power that they had predicted..."
Wow, if this is really true it validates my fear that the new M3 will probably underperform our expectations in the power dept. It also sounds like getting over 400 HP with a small V8 is hard to do (Lexus could barely do it and they had to go with 5 liters).

As far as the "detuned" 335i goes, I see it as good news. By the time the new M3 comes out I expect tuners to have solved the "detuning" issue giving us well over 400 HP with very little money. (Problem there will be how to get the rest of the car, ie. LSD and suspension, a little better.)

As I have said before, I expect the "properly tuned" 335i to be the toughest challenge to the new M3. It pisses me off that BMW is choosing to f*ck the performance of their 3-series car just so that it doesn't threaten sales of their upcoming and much more expensive M-car.
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      01-14-2007, 01:49 PM   #27
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At this moment we are currently in the photography and film shoot for the M3 Concept where we have been to Iceland and then currently in Dubai. the car is finished in Alpine White. The Dubai shoot involves the car undertaking possibly one of the worlds best roads and showcasing it's potential on the track. Whilst iceland is for scenery (cool-blue glaciers) and ambience.

The schedule goes like this : The production car will begin it's official photography and film shoot in April in the mountain regions of Spain and another location, where it will be a busy month as the next MINI variant undergoes photography in Tokyo. Prior to official release in July where it will appear amongst some other headliners at the BMW pavillion at the Frankfurt IAA in September , prior to European sales beginning before the close of of 2007 unless something happens.

As what I have been told the US release is in 2008 , It does not matter if you reckon the car is ready to launch as of now the early phases of marketing work commences as does the beginning of early production phases so that quality and error is retained and evaluated thoroughly. As I said work commences on the final areas of development and then work continues for adapting to other markets prior to the European market especially strict US legislation.

BMW are simply following the same idea as they had with the M5. Showcase ait as a Concept car build the anticipation levels watch the hysteria from afar and then introduce the production car.
The E60 M5 in europe had an intoduction a year later from the end of production of the E39 in July 2003.
Everything is on schedule.
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      01-14-2007, 01:54 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Romo View Post
Better delay than a bad/ insufficiant engine..................It`s gonna be allright I think, they will come up with a good solution, no doubt what so ever.
Yeah, thats basically right!
But BMW has already taken its time with the M3. If now adds a delay due to engine problems we'll see the car in Europe starting in spring 08. Maybe thats kinda M5 launch deja vu... (If that delay is caused by the incorporation of DI which would result in a better fuel consumption it wouldn't matter imho, but that's only speculative)
Scott(ie), clear it up, please

Best regards, south

EDIT: I was some minutes late!
As I said already, I hope the M5 is not the guide in every aspect with its delayed german launch in April 2005...
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      01-15-2007, 05:03 PM   #29
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....man. I don't care when the release is as long as the final numbers and appearance is revealed by Geneva. If not, then I am gonna be pist. lol.

-Pete.
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      01-15-2007, 07:04 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coaster View Post
Wow, if this is really true it validates my fear that the new M3 will probably underperform our expectations in the power dept. It also sounds like getting over 400 HP with a small V8 is hard to do (Lexus could barely do it and they had to go with 5 liters).

As far as the "detuned" 335i goes, I see it as good news. By the time the new M3 comes out I expect tuners to have solved the "detuning" issue giving us well over 400 HP with very little money. (Problem there will be how to get the rest of the car, ie. LSD and suspension, a little better.)

As I have said before, I expect the "properly tuned" 335i to be the toughest challenge to the new M3. It pisses me off that BMW is choosing to f*ck the performance of their 3-series car just so that it doesn't threaten sales of their upcoming and much more expensive M-car.
This is the way with the profit-minded company -- upsell you to the more expensive (and profitable) model. The Porsche Cayman S has no limited slip diff and longer gearing than a base 911 to ensure the 911 is quicker in a straight line and faster around a race course. The Cayman is mid-engined and lighter than a 911, so inherantly would be faster if actually allowed to compete on an equal playing field. But Porsche needs to keep the mystique of the 911 -- and the extra $12K!! Upselling = big $$!

The 335i's XEDE reflasher ($1300) will bring HP to 360-380HP (and over 400 HP with race gas) www.vishnutuning.com
You can get an LSD for the 335i from diffsonline http://www.diffsonline.com/product/customdiff7.htm
Probably $4K installed

And suspension will be easy to come by, too for $1500 or so installed should compete with the M3 in handling.

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...t=29819&page=2

Get some cool, lightweight 18" or 19" rims with matched front and rear tires (255s all around) (total = $3K or so) and it will look bitchin', handle and go like an M3, and will still cost $10K less than an M3.

And you can get it now!:rocks:
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      01-15-2007, 10:28 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by e36jakeo View Post
This is the way with the profit-minded company -- upsell you to the more expensive (and profitable) model. The Porsche Cayman S has no limited slip diff and longer gearing than a base 911 to ensure the 911 is quicker in a straight line and faster around a race course. The Cayman is mid-engined and lighter than a 911, so inherantly would be faster if actually allowed to compete on an equal playing field. But Porsche needs to keep the mystique of the 911 -- and the extra $12K!! Upselling = big $$!

The 335i's XEDE reflasher ($1300) will bring HP to 360-380HP (and over 400 HP with race gas) www.vishnutuning.com
You can get an LSD for the 335i from diffsonline http://www.diffsonline.com/product/customdiff7.htm
Probably $4K installed

And suspension will be easy to come by, too for $1500 or so installed should compete with the M3 in handling.

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...t=29819&page=2

Get some cool, lightweight 18" or 19" rims with matched front and rear tires (255s all around) (total = $3K or so) and it will look bitchin', handle and go like an M3, and will still cost $10K less than an M3.

And you can get it now!:rocks:
First, I agree with what you're saying that you can get a 335 now, spend some cash on it and have a killer car that handles well and goes fast. Although you have underestimated the cost of some components IMHO, and left some things out (such as a turboback or catback exhaust). Even so, I think it'll still be less than the M3, by how much, is harder to say.

With that being said, Modded vs. Stock is completely unfair. I've driven/owned many modded and unmodded cars and the ownership experience is completely different.

Also, if the E46 is an indicator, the E9x M3 will have a stiffer chassis than the E46. Also, given the weight of the 335 it is also plausible that the E92 M3 will weigh less than the 335.

Bottom line, I wouldn't be claiming that a modded 335 is going to beat an E92 M3 @ 10K less until the M3 is out.

-Adam
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      01-16-2007, 12:32 AM   #32
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^We will be lucky if the new M3 weighs equal to the 335i let alone lighter. As it is, the M engineers will have to be crafty if the new M is to have beefier (heavier) brakes, V8 (which know its going to have), bigger wheels standard, etc..

Jason
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      01-16-2007, 02:12 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by Smoltz View Post
First, I agree with what you're saying that you can get a 335 now, spend some cash on it and have a killer car that handles well and goes fast. Although you have underestimated the cost of some components IMHO, and left some things out (such as a turboback or catback exhaust). Even so, I think it'll still be less than the M3, by how much, is harder to say.

With that being said, Modded vs. Stock is completely unfair. I've driven/owned many modded and unmodded cars and the ownership experience is completely different.

Also, if the E46 is an indicator, the E9x M3 will have a stiffer chassis than the E46. Also, given the weight of the 335 it is also plausible that the E92 M3 will weigh less than the 335.

Bottom line, I wouldn't be claiming that a modded 335 is going to beat an E92 M3 @ 10K less until the M3 is out.

-Adam
There is no doubt the ownership experience between a modded car and stock car will be quite different. It is a different type of buyer who is interested in doing mods to make their car look better, go faster, or just be different. Up until the 335i, buyers who wanted a high performance 3-series had NO other choice than to get the M3. You could only gain minimal HP with N/A inline 6 powerplants, and by the time you go the FI route you might as well have just bought the M3. Now that the 335i has twin turbos and lots of HP to start, AND presumably the M3 will be even more expensive (upper $50s base price) this leaves a lot of room for tuning the 335i to match the M3.

I'd say that installed an LSD will cost $4K, the XEDE reflasher will be $1.5K, exhaust will be $1.5K, suspension will be $1.5K - 2K, and a set of lighter and better looking wheels and tires will run $4K, and maybe a bigger oil cooler for $500. So for $13K you have a 380 - 400 HP 335i that will be competitive with an M3 (assuming it comes in with around 420Hp and 3600 lbs) for at least $5K less. Again, the M3 with be great and this is the way most folks will choose to go. But for those who can't wait, or want to have something a bit different than an out-of-the-box M3, the 335i has great potential.
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      01-16-2007, 03:46 AM   #34
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Lot's still missing

Quote:
Originally Posted by e36jakeo View Post
I'd say that installed an LSD will cost $4K, the XEDE reflasher will be $1.5K, exhaust will be $1.5K, suspension will be $1.5K - 2K, and a set of lighter and better looking wheels and tires will run $4K, and maybe a bigger oil cooler for $500. So for $13K you have a 380 - 400 HP 335i that will be competitive with an M3 (assuming it comes in with around 420Hp and 3600 lbs) for at least $5K less. Again, the M3 with be great and this is the way most folks will choose to go. But for those who can't wait, or want to have something a bit different than an out-of-the-box M3, the 335i has great potential.
OK sure spend a lot (did anyone bother to include labor..) and maybe get close to the M3 but there is still a lot missing from this equation. It has been a bit beat to death on the forums but here it goes again...

-You will be missing the chassis stiffness from seam as opposed to spot welds which is a fairly important factor in the feel of the car and its ability to let the suspension do it's job.

-Brakes: Spy photos indicate some nice brakes and rotors on the new M. Isn't really hard (fade and maintenance free) braking as fun as great acceleration?

-SMG: Whoops - that is almost impossible to retrofit without replacing the entire engine management software + + etc. etc. SMG, IMO, is a key part of the M experience. Along with SMG you get 7 speeds, close ratios, probably a shorter rear end ratio and an 8k+ redline, all very key "go fast " components.

-Interior, esp. the M specific seats. How about those adjustable side bolsters during high g turns? I love the existing M3 seats and am sure the new ones will be quite a notch above the 335i.

-Steering: I'm sure the M will offer a different ratio and power assist, both of which will improve the feel and probably contribute (in a small way) to lap times.

-You all forgot body kit, again OOPS those lame aftermarket kits will ONLY address looks and not down force at 175+ mph. I'll take factory CFD and wind tunnel testing when I remove my limiter and probe the upper speed limit.

I like the 335i, they are especially gorgeous at night (no dis nor insult here) and I am glad it will provide a suitable platform for the M "boys" (engineers/designers) to do their thing. Even at a price neutral point the M3 will still win hands down as an overall GT (and yeah I know we don't have specs yet, but I'd still place $ on this).

Let's stop with the stock + $X dollars will win at the dragstrip, ugh . You can spend a lot less and go a lot faster than a 335i+software+etc.
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      01-16-2007, 05:26 AM   #35
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....man. I don't care when the release is as long as the final numbers and appearance is revealed by Geneva. If not, then I am gonna be pist. lol.

-Pete.
ha! me too brother!
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      01-16-2007, 06:30 AM   #36
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I seen some footage of the M3 negotiating this road in the UAE close to Dubai

http://funnyswf.googlepages.com/worl...iving_road.htm

High performance and track action has been shot at the autodrome in Dubai.
Up against a bright orange sun and mountainscape the white color reflects very well , unfortunately the footage I seen was not edited and you can still here the camera helicopter above but when it get's it proper sound mix and dubbing completed with enhanced soundtrack and some music , It should be astounding and fitting for a car of this calibre.

The scenery is fantastic as is the Iceland footage as you know if you have seen the latest M5 Touring promo on BMW.com that we do not like "Static" promos.
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      01-16-2007, 11:40 PM   #37
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1. 335i lack of chassis rigidity is enough to opt for the M. No comparison between the two, in any way.

2. That road in Dubai is first on my travel list for the last year or so since I first saw it, simply amazing.

3. Goodnight all.
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      01-17-2007, 08:19 AM   #38
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Duuuudes!!!!!!!!!! if the car is built 07 (say oct/nov/dec)and delivered say jan 08 its an 07 build!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
That's true.
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      01-18-2007, 03:30 AM   #39
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And who cares?

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Originally Posted by sykotoy View Post
Duuuudes!!!!!!!!!! if the car is built 07 (say oct/nov/dec)and delivered say jan 08 its an 07 build!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Folks correct me if I am wrong, but 99.9% of folks here would prefer a late 07 delivery and 07 build, which will of course be an 08 model. I just can not figure out your reluctance (our other posts on this topic as well) on this whole build year thing - it just does not matter . The car will be a 2008 period. If your heart is set on a 08 model+08 build just pray along with the rest of us for begin of production in 07, 1st US deliveries in 07, give up your #1 spot by letting quite a few folks down under take delivery before you, wait a few months then snag yourself your "precious" 08 build/08 model.
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      01-18-2007, 03:57 AM   #40
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Not hard

Quote:
Originally Posted by coaster View Post
Wow, if this is really true it validates my fear that the new M3 will probably underperform our expectations in the power dept. It also sounds like getting over 400 HP with a small V8 is hard to do (Lexus could barely do it and they had to go with 5 liters).
It is not that hard to get the hp, especially for a company who make as good engines as BMW. Here are some of the better hp/l #s around:

Honda S2000: 120
E46 M3: 103
E60 M5: 101 (probably more like 106 based on actual performance, engine is widely regarded as underrated)
F430: 112
RS4: 101
GT3: 115

And just for comparison purposes (not really fair since only 1 liter and much easier to get massive revs: redline = 13,500)
Yamaha R1 sportbike: 180 hp/l

If the displacement stays at exactly 4.0 liters, BMW offers no advances to the M5 heart of the new engine AND the redline stays at 8k even, we can count on 404 - 424 hp. I doubt output is the problem, if any.

Last edited by swamp2; 01-28-2007 at 04:29 AM.
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      01-18-2007, 08:14 AM   #41
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It is not that hard to get the hp, especially for a company who make as good engines as BMW. Here are some of the better hp/l #s around:

Honda S2000: 120
E46 M3: 103
E60 M5: 101 (probably more like 106 based on actual performance, engine is widely regarded as underrated)
F430: 112
RS4: 101
GT3: 115

And just for comparison purposes (not really fair since only 1 liter and much easier to get massive revs: redline = 13,500)
Yamaha R1 sportbike: 180 hp/l

If the displacement stays at exactly 4.0 liters, BMW offersno advancesto the M5 heart of the new engine AND the redline stays at 8k even we can count on 404 - 424 hp. I doubt output is the problem, if any.
That depends on the fact how many HP BMW wants from the V8, I agree 424 isn`t the problem, they could produce easaly that amount off HP.
I think the problem is the fact that BMW wants 440-450 HP from the 4.0 V8, there is where the challenge is for the new M3. Make the best engine world wide, set a new, verry high, standard for NA engines and leave competitors like the Audi RS4 ( too my best knowledge has a 4.2 Liter engine) way behind
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      01-19-2007, 02:07 AM   #42
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On topic of the OP - credibility

Just saw this over at m5board.com, posted by the moderator "Just_me" about SCOTT26.

"I have followed him for many years on internet and this guy (Scott) he is correct about most things regarding BMW. A very trustfully [sic] source. BTW he works in München for BMW."
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      01-26-2007, 12:17 AM   #43
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Timeline

That timeline is spot on.....The E46 M3 started Euro (read German)deliveries in Nov. 2000 and U.S. models started in late March of 2001.

The sad thing was we had to wait two years to get the Euro 19's as stock.
Don't think we'll have that prob this time.........
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      01-30-2007, 12:30 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post
At this moment we are currently in the photography and film shoot for the M3 Concept where we have been to Iceland and then currently in Dubai. the car is finished in Alpine White. The Dubai shoot involves the car undertaking possibly one of the worlds best roads and showcasing it's potential on the track. Whilst iceland is for scenery (cool-blue glaciers) and ambience.

The schedule goes like this : The production car will begin it's official photography and film shoot in April in the mountain regions of Spain and another location, where it will be a busy month as the next MINI variant undergoes photography in Tokyo. Prior to official release in July where it will appear amongst some other headliners at the BMW pavillion at the Frankfurt IAA in September , prior to European sales beginning before the close of of 2007 unless something happens.

As what I have been told the US release is in 2008 , It does not matter if you reckon the car is ready to launch as of now the early phases of marketing work commences as does the beginning of early production phases so that quality and error is retained and evaluated thoroughly. As I said work commences on the final areas of development and then work continues for adapting to other markets prior to the European market especially strict US legislation.

BMW are simply following the same idea as they had with the M5. Showcase ait as a Concept car build the anticipation levels watch the hysteria from afar and then introduce the production car.
The E60 M5 in europe had an intoduction a year later from the end of production of the E39 in July 2003.
Everything is on schedule.
Want to be a mench and share some pictures with all of us enthusiasts of the M3 Concept?
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