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      12-05-2006, 04:51 PM   #45
enigma
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Worry not. Some of us, like me, have a very impersonal and confrontation style to discussion. I am open to debate, just bring valid backing for any points you are making.

I have some catching up to do. I only managed ~6k miles on the Elise so far. I had far less than that on the M3.

I can tell you from personal experience you will never be happy with a combined daily driver and track car IF you are pushing on the track or don't like lots of "whats wrong with your car?" questions from your date.


[edit: Grr hit send early]
The other thing to keep in mind when it comes to a compromise setup. Don't skimp on the shocks. They more than any other component of the suspension determine the ride quality of the car.

Now if BMW would simply include an M version of ARS then much of this debate would become acidemic. You would simply want to fix the camber and call it done for anything short of a track only car. ARS more than any other BMW development hold the potential to make a car that can be both comfortable on the street and yet still perform when required.
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      12-05-2006, 05:40 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by replicat View Post
Oh I get it.

But anywho... thanks for the advice (I hate the internet, can never get a persons attitude across..alot of times I think people are being arrogant and condescending, when they aren't)...but by the time it comes to buying some suspension for the E92 hopefully I cn get smoe advice from you...

P.S. 10,000 miles on the track!
what happened?
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      12-05-2006, 05:44 PM   #47
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If we are talking about the same Nick (blue M3, white 323 race car), he really, really hates his dual-purpose M3 now.
yes, same one.....

about his rear subframe, i've got no clue to why it failed, my thoughts were just "i think it may be"...but i don't know for sure...
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      12-06-2006, 05:16 AM   #48
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ARS or EDC or both

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Originally Posted by enigma View Post
Now if BMW would simply include an M version of ARS then much of this debate would become acidemic. You would simply want to fix the camber and call it done for anything short of a track only car. ARS more than any other BMW development hold the potential to make a car that can be both comfortable on the street and yet still perform when required.
You mean active roll stabilization for essentially variable rate roll bars or electronic damper control for variable shock damping. I think if I had to pick one I would go for EDC ala M5.
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      12-06-2006, 12:18 PM   #49
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Thanks for all the info guys.
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      12-06-2006, 04:40 PM   #50
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You mean active roll stabilization for essentially variable rate roll bars or electronic damper control for variable shock damping. I think if I had to pick one I would go for EDC ala M5.

Yes, active roll stabilization. The way BMW implemented it is not by varying the rate of the sway bars. Thats actually constant. What they do is apply a variable pre-load to counteract the tendancy of the car to roll when turning. Its basically a small motor that twists the bar in the center. It can also effectivly disconnect the bars if the motor is allowed to move freely.

The reason I think the technology is the best improvement BMW has had since the move away from semi-trailing arms in follows. BMW refuses to use a front suspension with a better dynamic camber curve. So therefore to minimize camber losses and to keep the tires flat they also have to keep the car flat. Now the traditional way to do this is to run massive spring rates. Thats not acceptable in a street car. By varying the pre-load on the sway bars BMW can do the same thing without any loss of comfort or compliance when the car is not turning. Also interesting the effective spring rates do not change even when the car is turning, all the effect of keeping the car flat is from dynamic pre-load.

Basically its a way to keep the car from leaning without having to run stiff springs.


m3ichael: You are right I am not a mechanical guy. I hate to work on cars. However, I have done some vehical simulation software in the past (err, video games) and have a general engineering background (not comp sci).
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      12-07-2006, 05:53 AM   #51
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Same thing

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Originally Posted by enigma View Post
Yes, active roll stabilization. The way BMW implemented it is not by varying the rate of the sway bars. Thats actually constant. What they do is apply a variable pre-load to counteract the tendancy of the car to roll when turning. Its basically a small motor that twists the bar in the center. It can also effectivly disconnect the bars if the motor is allowed to move freely.
Variable pre-load effectively accomplishes a variable rate. Sure the combined roll bar, end to end never has a higher torsional stiffness. But with the neutral (no torque) angular position having an offset angle by the actuator what was once no net twist on the sway at no torque becomes no net twist with a definite torque. So by varying this angular offset you do end up with an effective variable rate sway bar.

I'd think I'd still like to have EDC more than ARS. I am pretty happy with the very flat cornering provided by a good aftermarket sway bar (stock is never stiff enough with BMW for my liking). However, when going straight, over speed bumps or smaller high speed bumps in the road (under totally neutral sway bar action) decent track shocks are usually way to harsh. EDC offers a lot to improve this particular situation.

Both together is all the better.
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