The truth about VF.

[MspiredM3]

Originally Posted by Lemans_Blue_M

Good move.

On the next compression test, make sure the car has been running for at least 20-30 minutes. A compression test on a cold engine is completely worthless...

If your engine is good to go, you should see compression numbers in the 160-170 psi range or higher.

Good luck tomorrow, and I hope it turns out well.

I believe for 9.8:1 they should be around the 150 range. This is what a few people that know what they are talking about have told me.

[Sticky]

Originally Posted by niterider

If the compression ratio has been lowered ur numbers will b lower then 160-175, those are numbers u would get on a stock s54 b32 which your not. Just look for consistent numbers with no more then 10% variation between the cyls. Sba has good mechanics n they def. Know what they r doing but I would take it to someone u personally trust n have delt with. Goodluck!

+1, This is what I have heard...

[Lemans_Blue_M]

Originally Posted by niterider

If the compression ratio has been lowered ur numbers will b lower then 160-175, those are numbers u would get on a stock s54 b32 which your not. Just look for consistent numbers with no more then 10% variation between the cyls. Sba has good mechanics n they def. Know what they r doing but I would take it to someone u personally trust n have delt with. Goodluck!

Just in case you didn't know...

The average compression test numbers on a new or low mileage S54 engine is higher than the numbers you quoted. (160-175)

You will typically see cylinder pressures in the 180-200 psi range on a healthy S54 engine, if the test was properly done (which is not always the case).

I had a compression test done on my 2004 E46 M3 with 8800 miles on the odometer. (June 2005)

Here were the results:

cyl #1 190 psi
cyl #2 180 psi
cyl #3 180 psi
cyl #4 180 psi
cyl #5 190 psi
cyl #6 180 psi

My results are not uncommon. This is actually closer to the norm.

A well-built S54 engine will tend to have higher compression numbers until you get 20,000-30,000 miles on them. This is typically where your leakdown numbers start to creep up toward 10%, and your compression test numbers start to dip into the 160-170 psi range. (naturally aspirated)

It will be interesting to see what compression numbers Mike'e engine will get during the test tomorrow.

If his numbers are as low as the first compression test, I would wonder if poor tuning may have caused some severe detonation damage to the ring lands under hard acceleration. This would explain the medicore compression test results.

[MspiredM3]

Originally Posted by Sticky

Glad you mentioned the shop, I was about to ask.

You are being thorough, and that is good, but don't forget to check the head gasket specs as it was replaced when it blew, correct?

I wanted to say, I have absolutely no problem with Southbay Auto, they are top notch. My post above might have came across otherwise and I wanted to correct that.

[FStop7]

Mspired does your rebuilt motor have stock or lowered compression pistons and is it using a thicker head gasket?

[niterider]

Originally Posted by Lemans_Blue_M

Just in case you didn't know...

The average compression test numbers on a new or low mileage S54 engine is higher than the numbers you quoted. (160-175)

You will typically see cylinder pressures in the 180-200 psi range on a healthy S54 engine, if the test was properly done (which is not always the case).

I had a compression test done on my 2004 E46 M3 with 8800 miles on the odometer. (June 2005)

Here were the results:

cyl #1 190 psi
cyl #2 180 psi
cyl #3 180 psi
cyl #4 180 psi
cyl #5 190 psi
cyl #6 180 psi

My results are not uncommon. This is actually closer to the norm.

A well-built S54 engine will tend to have higher compression numbers until you get 20,000-30,000 miles on them. This is typically where your leakdown numbers start to creep up toward 10%, and your compression test numbers start to dip into the 160-170 psi range. (naturally aspirated)

It will be interesting to see what compression numbers Mike'e engine will get during the test tomorrow.

If his numbers are as low as the first compression test, I would wonder if poor tuning may have caused some severe detonation damage to the ring lands under hard acceleration. This would explain the medicore compression test results.

11-12 bar is the BMW spec, this is why I said 160-175psi, thats about the same as 11-12 bar. If u are over the spec then obviously u are ok.

However his motor has been re-built with a lower compression so if it in fact has been lowered it will not achieve the same numbers as spec and def. not get the numbers u posted.

So just incase u didnt know, a lower compression S54 engine is going to get lower compression test numbers. In most engines this is the case, ofcourse this can change with cams etc, but Mikes engine only has lowered compression which was most likely achieved by changing pistons & rods.

Also in my experience I like doing 2 compression test, one with the engine cold and one with it warm. I dont find it useless to perform a compression test on a cold engine because then u can compare the 2 numbers and check for consistency, which at the end this is really what ur looking for. Mike, u wont really have a spec since u have had ur engine compression lowered. Find out from VF what it was lowered to, and Im sure Kise (not sure how u spell his name) at SBA will let u know if ur engines ok. He has a lot of experience and knows what hes doing.

[MspiredM3]

Here is a synopsis of various posts within many forums/threads:

The following is all from this thread:

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=729112

Originally Posted by Brian N

Oh man that sucks.

I remember seeing your car at Ronin for a while! I had made two trips and couldn't believe the car was still there, and that was months ago. I really can't believe your still having problems. Back then I even knew that VF was looking more shady at the moment. Talking to ronin's mechanics they said a couple of VF kits had come in to be "fixed" since they weren't running right either.

Best of luck man. I wouldn't let VF get anywhere near your car again. Time to make a change/do something different.

Originally Posted by ///M3_N_DaWerks

Sorry to hear about your situation Mike!

I too had problems with VF but this one is extreme! Best of luck to you.

Originally Posted by ///M*Hershey

damn, I almost went with VF. I have a good friend, who is not a forum member & has a VF stg.1 with the same issues that has been discussed over & over in these threads. EVEN he told me NOT To go VF. Glad I didn't also...OP- THANKS for the write up. GL in the future with your car.

Originally Posted by Flavourless

Bryce if you only knew that crap that Speedware had to deal with when ordering your kit from Vf. It was a joke sean and nik are horrible to have to deal with and from that point on, I vowed to never own a vf product ever!!

can the mods clean up this RMS bs. that has nothing to do with this thread and just clutters it up and causes Mike's thread to head off-topic. This thread needs to stay on topic as much as possible so that it does not get locked up. Come on guys lets keep it to what is happening with Mike and NOTHING else.

Originally Posted by 05SCM3

While I don't know engines and tuning like many of you, my interaction with VF Tuning and Nik Saran left little doubt in my mind just how disingenuous and duplicitous that outfit is . . . .

Indeed, when my Stage II E46 M3 was with them (which is a whole separated sorted story) I learned Nick had taken it out of town for a couple of days to attend a wedding so I flew in to California, had to track him down, and got the car back with over 1,000 additional miles on it . . . . :facepalm:

Despite the fact that VF Engineering has a number of customers who have positive views about the company and its products, several of whom I regard highly, I knew the true character of that outfit and and its head of "R&D" could not go undetected forever.

Originally Posted by finger123

if this is all true mike, then VF will be losing a lot more customers including me. Its about time to dump my VF kit and go HPF. screw it.

In response to above:

Originally Posted by azjimi

Was wondering how long you were gonna keep this in.
It's one of several reasons I never went stage II.

The below are all from the following thread:

http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showthread.php?t=300057

Originally Posted by DTM Tom

i concur, a lot of mike's experiences were the same as mine.

Originally Posted by confused

I am having AFR issues on my e36 stage 1 as well. I am happy with the pre-sale support from Sean, they have always gotten back to me promptly when I call or email, but the tech support is horrible. When I ordered the kit the instructions were completely wrong, there were references to parts that were not in the kit, pictures referring to different cars, pieces were missing (which were promptly shipped). When I called with install questions it seemed the tech had never even seen or installed a kit on an e36. Best thing I did was throw the instructions away and just figure it out on my own.

I had the car dyno'd bc I was concerned about the AFRs and I want to go with water/meth and up the boost to 8-9 psi. I put down 315 whp on the final run, stock clutch with 105k on it slipping pretty bad, which is more than I had expected. The shop that dyno'd it was impressed with the hp #'s but said the tune is sh!t and to have VF reflash it. I emailed my charts to VF and they said not to worry, its normal.

Overall if I had to do it again I would probably buy a RMS stage 2 off ebay and have AA or someone do the tune. I do not like the VF belt setup, the small injectors, and the GIAC tune that come with the VF but I think Vortech blowers are the only way to go - I love my V3. My SC options at the time I bought it were AA or VF, even with the problems I would still choose VF over AA because of the Vortech SC.

Originally Posted by DRIPPABMW

Man this is a bad post, I feel bad seeing people trying to mod their cars and having nothing but problems. I am glad that they have kept this up for people to see the truth and vf engineering true colors. The reason why Nik probably wanted you to send it to VAC is because thats where I had my motor built and AA tuned it and I never had a problem after that.

For the people on this forum that dont know my story I had a vf stg 2 for about 300 miles and it blew my motor and Nik did nothing to help me out. Just wanted me to pay more money for additional parts. I would not reccomend anyone to buy their kit after what happened to me. I really think that people need to see the way you get treated by them, in the beginning they wanted to help me out all the time then nobody there wants to help you out, even after the motor blew Nik says you have cracked ringlands, But I will sell you pistons and rods at cost. I have a whole story but you guys see where this is going, there wasnt one or two bad motors there are a few. I think you guys a vf have a problem on your hands and might wanna think about fixing it!

Originally Posted by brakelate22

Mspiredm3 you are one patient man.

I bet there are alot more Unhappy VF customers then any of us thinks.

Im not going to get in detail but i know a BMW VF car/owner that has a similar story like yours. Maybe not as bad, But bad enough. Maybe i can get him to share his storys.

Dont get mad but i trully feel one of the main reasons you got in this situition is bandwagon jumping. Ive noticed alot of bandwagon/trends in the BMW world. lesson to be learned "dont get cought up in the Hype".

The following from this thread:

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=334198

Originally Posted by 05SCM3

Having dealt with VF Engineering and their head of "R&D" - Nick Saran, and had their stage I and II Supercharger on my E46 M3, I can state unequivocally that I would never again put anything from that company on my car . . . ever.

Originally Posted by bigpuna

This is what happens when you buy 3rd party software to run your FI kits. I have seen a few local VF kits over the years that did not run right and the owners always made excuses for it. If you can't develop software on your own and you have to buy it then you have no business building FI kits.

Originally Posted by Eugene-TAIWAN

I was really faithful to VF because of my late GTI and I bought their RSS kit for my GTI but, after a few action and post and some bad customer service here in Taiwan. I have gone another route! Sad to hear things like this as it really hurts to see a brothers motor being raped like that. Hey Marry Christmas Bro (Mspired).

Originally Posted by stylinexpat

To the best of my recollection if am not mistaken I remember that 1 or 2 people who had installed the VF Supercharger on their VW R32 blew their motors. I used to have a R32 and at the time was thinking about getting a Supercharger for my R32 but after I had heard of what happened I decided against installing a supercharger on my R32.

Originally Posted by Panda///Monic

Paper trail is fairly impressive and reinforces Mspireds side of the story very well.
I knew Tony's car wasn't running how Nik claimed either. I saw the car in person. The guy is a good friend. Tony was so excited when he sent it off but by the Time Tony got his car back, he seemed so disappointed and was one of the people who told me not to trust them on my E92.

Originally Posted by niterider

I think every company will one day face a problem, wether it be a blown engine, a leaky valve cover, a lose bolt etc. Whatever the problem be big or small this is when a company shines IMO. The way a company addresses the problem and satisfies the customer is when they show their true colors. Customer service is number 1 in my book.

This isnt the first Guy I know with a blown motor from VF, however I wont jump to the conclusion and say they dont know what they are doing (maybe they do, maybe they dont) I go by facts.

As of now the fact is they have blown s54 engines and have also made some fast s54s. It is also a fact this is not the first person they dont help after they couldnt resolve the problem and try to brush off.

This is exactly why I didnt wait for their SC kit. I know people with personal experiences from VF that ended up paying some other company to fix their car, that was enough for me to stay away from them, again Im going by facts.

If u want to talk about the S65, Vf has obviously not been able to tune their S65 kit, this is a FACT. So u make ur conclusions from their. I know Its not about who releases thier kit first but to me, it also shows a weakness in a company when u release ur kit a year or 2 after some other companies have released reliable and powerful SC kits.

Good luck with ur engine bro, hope they take care of it. Like I said in my eyes Customer support/service should b #1 for any performance company. This is why I respect G power, they blew engines but they also took responsibility and repaired them.

The following from this thread:

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum....php?t=1368731

Originally Posted by bim533mer

i have a friend that personally met this nik dude and from the conversation he had with him he sad that he is full of sh*t and dose not know how this place makes money

Originally Posted by jayzx7

thats sucks to hear hope you get everything worked out. the best mod i did to my car was selling my vf kit. they will lie right to you and not even think twice about it.

The following from this thread:

http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/b...-vf-truth.html

Originally Posted by BAD ASS TA WS6

Huh. Funny how it all works out.

I had to have AA tune my roommates M3 after building the motor...as the factory one had MASSIVE blow-by same as yours. Motor was built to handle 25+psi, best money could buy. Factory 40k mile car, cracked 4 ringlands after 300 miles of VF stg. 2. Burned about a quart of oil in 25 miles.

At that point I upgraded to a T-Trim, $$$ motor, still on factory fuel pump, and like I said 9/10psi making 496rwhp on a dynapack SAFE. Of course, we had to upgrade the injectors while getting tuned, as the ones supplied with VF stg.2 were BOGUS, and maxed out around 6500RPM.

Is the company still getting bought out, and changing names?

There isn't much credibility comming from their court. FWIW, I'm a BMW tech and have experience with various S/C setups on the E46 cars. The VF kit isn't bad installation wise, but the real battle comes once you turn the key.

[Lemans_Blue_M]

Originally Posted by MspiredM3

Here is a synopsis of various posts within many forums/threads...

Wow, that's a lot of info to digest!

[Lemans_Blue_M]

Originally Posted by niterider

11-12 bar is the BMW spec, this is why I said 160-175psi, thats about the same as 11-12 bar. If u are over the spec then obviously u are ok.

However his motor has been re-built with a lower compression so if it in fact has been lowered it will not achieve the same numbers as spec and def. not get the numbers u posted.

So just incase u didnt know, a lower compression S54 engine is going to get lower compression test numbers. In most engines this is the case, ofcourse this can change with cams etc, but Mikes engine only has lowered compression which was most likely achieved by changing pistons & rods.

Also in my experience I like doing 2 compression test, one with the engine cold and one with it warm. I dont find it useless to perform a compression test on a cold engine because then u can compare the 2 numbers and check for consistency, which at the end this is really what ur looking for. Mike, u wont really have a spec since u have had ur engine compression lowered. Find out from VF what it was lowered to, and Im sure Kise (not sure how u spell his name) at SBA will let u know if ur engines ok. He has a lot of experience and knows what hes doing.

Yes, I know Mspired has a lower compression ratio.

My engine of course was in excellent mechanical condition (with low miles) and still had the stock 11.5:1 cr.

Even at 9.8:1 cr, Mspireds engine should be ~160 psi if it was properly assembled by a competent engine builder don't you think?

135 psi across the board is too low in my opinion, and I hope the compression numbers of his second test come out 20-30 psi higher. (so he can have some peace of mind in the motor)

The reason I think it may have just been a bad compression test the first time around, is that his cylinder leak down percentages were so low. That is usually a good indicator of a healthy powerplant.

[Singletrack]

Mspired - I can't believe that you are able to compose coherent arguments and thoughts at this point. Given the same situation, I suspect I would be spitting out sentence fragments and filth flarn filth. I sincerely hope that you are able to put this behind you at some point and once again enjoy your M3. Good luck man!

[yellowstone]

wow is that really true about VF borrowing a customers car to goto a wedding?

[radz182]

It's a car show wedding! lol

[05SCM3]

Originally Posted by yellowstone

wow is that really true about VF borrowing a customers car to goto a wedding?

Amazingly it is. When I finally reached Nik Saran of VFE on his cell phone and requested that he meet me in my car later that morning once I arrived at the airport and he got back int to town, he said "no can do" as he had a Volkswagen car show to attend and I would need to find my way to the car show to collect my car . . . .

Perhaps he wanted to ensure there were plenty of people around when I caught up with him in the interest of his personal protection . . . very wise move on his part.

My dealings with Nick Saran and VFE were so disturbing it is almost funny, almost.

[Sticky]

Originally Posted by 05SCM3

Amazingly it is. When I finally reached Nik Saran of VFE on his cell phone and requested that he meet me in my car later that morning once I arrived at the airport and he got back int to town, he said "no can do" as he had a Volkswagen car show to attend and I would need to find my way to the car show to collect my car . . . .

Perhaps he wanted to ensure there were plenty of people around when I caught up with him in the interest of his personal protection . . . very wise move on his part.

My dealings with Nick Saran and VFE were so disturbing it is almost funny, almost.

Absolutely beyond belief... surprised I did not see this played up more.

What in the world was his excuse? Did he even bother to try to come up with one?

[Eugene-TAIWAN]

This is really snow balling

[KiokenM3]

wow. i think we can safely say that vf wont be workin on too many e92 m3's!!!

[MspiredM3]

Finally got a response and apology from Nik last night and today and received a check today for $5k ($3600 towards what I have paid to him for stage 3, and $1400 extra).

[Ca$hOnly]

Originally Posted by MspiredM3

Finally got a response and apology from Nik last night and today and received a check today for $5k ($3600 towards what I have paid to him for stage 3, and $1400 extra).

Hopefully it won't bounce.

[sammyrusso]

Originally Posted by MspiredM3

Finally got a response and apology from Nik last night and today and received a check today for $5k ($3600 towards what I have paid to him for stage 3, and $1400 extra).

good for you. might not be worth all the time and energy, but glad you got your money back, and guessing the extra was for the experience you had to go thru.

[Eugene-TAIWAN]

Originally Posted by MspiredM3

Finally got a response and apology from Nik last night and today and received a check today for $5k ($3600 towards what I have paid to him for stage 3, and $1400 extra).

Hey Happy New Years!!!

[leeor]

Originally Posted by Eugene-TAIWAN

Hey Happy New Years!!!

lol! u too!

[M3Kernow]

This is not good news for VF, especially in this economy