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      12-23-2009, 10:07 PM   #23
Finnegan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by infamxkris View Post
your info has been amazing finn.. i didnt realize all the things that can alter this deal. well like i said they had this car listed at 60k and even though 55k isnt a set price he did say i can offer that as an offer. I asked if low 50s was doable. and he said there is no way this car is being moved for that amount. It didnt even sound like 55k was going to get me the car... with this said if its anywhere around 55-57k should i just walk on this deal or just bite as this is the ONLY used m3 around me... once again thank you for the wonderful info!
You're most welcome.

I can't answer the "should i just walk on this deal or just bite as this is the ONLY used m3 around me" question. That's really up to you. Assume they paid 49K for the car, 1.5K for CPO, 56K gets them just over 10% on the deal. Again, a fair profit is up for debate. But again, if that's original rubber the rear tires should be pretty well done at this point and that's 1K I'd ask them to knock off the price. And yes, it's fair and you should bring that up along with the small remaining life on the front tires.

Warning: Long-winded story and opinion/advice follows!

I will say that in a couple of recent deals I've made I got the "talk to my manager", "we're losing money on the deal", "we can't sell it for that" blah blah blah. I said, my wife and I ran the numbers and here's what we can do. We researched it. If they say your numbers are crap you say "okay, but geez, my wife is a real PITA on stuff like this..." I told them this was a business deal for me as my wife gave me little leeway on what I could spend. Whenever my sales guy said "I have to talk to my manager" and came back with a number I would say "I don't know, I need to talk to my manager--you know--my wife!" and excused myself, went outside, and actually called my wife. She was in on the plan--just in case I got all caught up she was there to ground me and pull me back down to Earth and insist that "we" agreed not to pay more than X. I'd come back and say "well, my wife says the the numbers are X, gee, I really like the car, but she's adamant that this isn't going to be some emotional thing and I'm required to get a reasonable deal". I was polite yet firm; and since it wasn't "me" saying no that defused them a bit from being pissed off with me. (Hee hee, that's usually the sales guy's tactic--he's your friend, the manager is the enemy, he's not trying to screw you over it's the manager, he's working on your behalf--all BS of course-they're all out to make as much as they can off you!) With this tactic, see, I'm a nice reasonable guy, but my wife isn't! I'm trying to work with you guys--but you know how it is!

Not having her there is person is the key--you keep her as the big bad on the other end of the phone. What if they want to talk to her? Tell them she doesn't want to talk to them and that's it. Then you sigh or something and look all depressed. No wife? No problem! Say it's your girlfriend, dad, whatever. You could even call your voicemail--it doesn't matter. (A real person who can keep you sane is a good idea IMO.)

At one point I was asked into the manager's office, and he showed me a bunch of numbers on his computer, "proving" they'd lose money on the deal with my offer. I just said "okay, your numbers say x and ours say y. Like I told Bob here, I really want the car but my wife well..you know how it is. I want to work with you guys but I've called her twice now and I've got to get a reasonable deal. Guys, this is a business deal and it's not some emotional thing for us." Then you just don't say anything and leave them hanging. Let the silence ring for a minute or two if necessary, longer if needed. Maybe say "hmmm..." (Note: I didn't say his numbers were wrong or argue with him. I just said that we had different numbers; never argue, it's not a good idea.) At this point the pressure is on them. In the end I came up a bit on my numbers, but I was in the range I'd set as my target so all was well. Result: I walked away with a pretty darn good deal and we all had a good laugh at my (and my wife's) "expense". (Actually it wasn't at our expense in terms of $s!)

Now, this approach can certainly backfire. And if you're not good at BSing it's not going to work. Bottom line with any approach is that you must be prepared to stick to your guns and walk out without a car. You may not get the M3. But, IMO unless you're willing to do that you're going to lose money. They count on you wanting it. That's the game. So,my advice remains "know your numbers, know what you are willing to pay max, start below that, and allow them to come up to that number but not beyond". Don't use what they're "asking" or "might offer" as the starting point in the negotiation. Use your numbers!

One other thing: on a recent trade I saw where the car I traded in was listed at 10K over what they actually paid me on the trade. Using that rule of thumb if they're asking 60K the real cost, with CPO, is around 50K. 10% profit is 55K; a whopping 20% profit if someone were to pay 60K!....

Happy hunting!

Last edited by Finnegan; 12-23-2009 at 10:29 PM.
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      12-23-2009, 10:08 PM   #24
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6MT FTW. These cars should only come with 6MT.

Quote:
Originally Posted by infamxkris View Post
thanks for the info rich! now do you think the car is worth it or no? i am really wanting this car even more because there are NO used e92 m3s around in my area... I have also found another CPO e92 with the exact same options except it is a 6mt but with only 7k miles but it was listed at 1k less than the car i have mentioned. I have told this to my dealer and he said because the car they have listed is a DCT their car will go for more... Now i dont drive manual but i would think that 11k in mile differential is HUGE and dont think the DCT would make a car with 11k more miles worth 1k more! Am i wrong to think this? Also what would be a good price to offer for the car with 18k miles knowing that the exact same car with 11k less miles is out for 1k less even though it has a 6mt.. I go to the dealership tomorrow to check out the car and work out a price. What would be the price i should shoot for? ( the one with 18k miles and DCT)
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      12-23-2009, 10:17 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finnegan View Post
If you're asking for my opinion--and it's just that, an opinion--even 54K for CPO (assuming Premium Sound, 19s, Sat, BMW Assist, PDC, e.g. loaded) is an overly generous offer. 52K is better. Here's why: Edmunds put the trade in at around 49K for "outstanding"; but I doubt the dealer gave that and they probably used "clean" and gave someone about 47K on the trade. In my experience dealers almost never pay high Blue Book or Edmunds "Outstanding" values; often they give low BB or "Average". "Average" in this case is a little over 44K . CPO costs them about 1.5K (we'll say 2K for an assumption) if I remember (and I think CPO is a good idea on this car).

So, let's assume they paid a "Clean" price for the car. That works out as follows: 55K (their offer to you "with supervisor approval BS") - 2K (CPO cost) - 47 (what they paid) = 6K profit for them. Plus you're going to pay tax, license, etc. so you're not walking out paying 55K.

What's a fair profit? That's a good question and one I can't answer. But a 5% profit would be ~51.5K (49K base * 1.05). 55K is over a 12% profit if the assumptions above are correct. That, IMO, is too much profit.

Other considerations: tires are going to cost you (unless they want to throw in new shoes). Tires on 19" wheels aren't cheap: replacing the PS2s will cost ~350 per tire front; 385 per tire rear: $1,470 not including tax and other fees. And that's not including balancing, alignment (if needed--at 18K miles a possibility), and mounting costs. I'd figure on 2K as a rule of thumb (other members can chime in here; I haven't replaced rubber yet). And that's not the only expense you're going to incur regarding tires....

You're also going to need winter wheels/tires. It's must: you can't run the summer tires in your region in the cold, ice, snow or even wet. Take a look at the general forum--it's wreck o' rama due to folks having issues running summer tires in winter conditions. Not worth the risk. And a good winter set-up means less wide wheels and tires to match (wider is not better for snow); at the very least good winter tires if you want to keep the stock wheel setup. Check the wheel/tire section for recommendations-there's a Tire Rack thread there (site sponsor) that's informative. If they want to throw a winter set of wheels/tires then you have to plug that into your cost/profit/offer scenarios.

If I were you I'd plug in various factors (similar to what I did above) and create scenarios, including winter tires/PS2 replacement, taxes, license etc. and see what this is really going to you before jumping in. Figure out what you can really afford to pay, what a reasonable profit for the dealer is, and work the deal from there. Doing your homework and being fully informed in terms of the numbers really pays off when shopping cars. Know your numbers inside out; it will pay off for you, and you'll be able to negotiate from a position of strength. Sales guys/dealers all count on this stuff being nebulous and on the buyer (us) not having a real idea of costs, plus the power of the emotion (buying a car is, let's face it, exciting), to take money from your pocket (at least that's my opinion).

Sorry if I'm being Mr. Negative on this deal and throwing out a lot of variables to consider....hopefully this is of some help and doesn't just add to the confusion.
Nice synopsis of the issues that should be helpful to him (and others).
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      12-23-2009, 10:29 PM   #26
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wow! amazing gameplan finn! haha i am going to try my best to work out a deal.. but so far i have the dealer in the drivers seat as i KNOW he knows i want this car BAD! haha i will deff play the tires card and try your gameplan out and i will keep this thread updated on how this crucial negotiation goes! haha oh and btw i have seen ALOT of m3s on autotrader dropping in price.. there is an 08 e92 with 20k miles for only 47k! only thing is that its a 6mt and not a CPO.. is the CPO and DCT really worth the 8+k!??!
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      12-23-2009, 10:54 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by infamxkris View Post
is the CPO and DCT really worth the 8+k!??!
No.

1,8K or so for DCT, 2K for CPO.

Use that Edmunds link, it will provide a pretty good number how much each item costs.

Edmunds Link
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      12-24-2009, 10:42 AM   #28
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a quick update! my dealer called me but i missed the call and he left me a voicemail and asked to make an offer above 57k and he thinks he can lock this deal up. I am thinking 57k is wayy too much for this car. what should i do?!? also i am guessing he hasnt had too many people call about the m3 because ive told him my price range of 50k from the beginning and has kept trying to sell me the car.
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      12-24-2009, 01:44 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by infamxkris View Post
a quick update! my dealer called me but i missed the call and he left me a voicemail and asked to make an offer above 57k and he thinks he can lock this deal up. I am thinking 57k is wayy too much for this car. what should i do?!? also i am guessing he hasnt had too many people call about the m3 because ive told him my price range of 50k from the beginning and has kept trying to sell me the car.
I'm thinking it's pretty steep too - Looks like he's working you to see what he can sqeeze you for. I came across the attached a while back somewhere on this site. You may want to go to a few other dealers & price a 2010 -
Attached Images
File Type: pdf 2010 M3 Pricing[1].pdf (2.95 MB, 58 views)
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      12-24-2009, 07:37 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by infamxkris View Post
your info has been amazing finn.. i didnt realize all the things that can alter this deal. well like i said they had this car listed at 60k and even though 55k isnt a set price he did say i can offer that as an offer. I asked if low 50s was doable. and he said there is no way this car is being moved for that amount. It didnt even sound like 55k was going to get me the car... with this said if its anywhere around 55-57k should i just walk on this deal or just bite as this is the ONLY used m3 around me... once again thank you for the wonderful info!
I am going to be brief and direct...

Just because it is the only M3 around you now, doesn't mean it will be the only M3 around you ever. Even mid-50's is too much in my opinion. If they won't do low-50's, walk, be patient, and find the car for the price you want.
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      12-25-2009, 12:45 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoM3ForMe View Post
I am going to be brief and direct...

Just because it is the only M3 around you now, doesn't mean it will be the only M3 around you ever. Even mid-50's is too much in my opinion. If they won't do low-50's, walk, be patient, and find the car for the price you want.
100% agreed! Like someone above said. Get a Euro Delivery and the car with similar options at invoice + $1K prices at around $60K. You get a brand new car made your options.

There is no way I would pay nearly that much money for a 08 w/ that many miles.....

Below car is avil locally for me and has been in the market for a while. I know I can easily go buy this for $50K

http://seattle.craigslist.org/see/ctd/1516270141.html
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      12-25-2009, 02:01 AM   #32
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57K?

I think we're all in agreement that somewhere around 51-52K max (CPO); or 50K max (no CPO) is somewhere in the right ballpark....but even then he's going to be out another 1K-2K on tires, not to mention the high miles.

I'm sure the dealer would love to make what amounts to ~17% on the sale.

Euro Delivery is a great option too.
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      12-25-2009, 09:52 AM   #33
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Let's cut to the chase, please... if you are thinking about buying a three model-year old M3 for $57K then you need to quickly sit and calm down.

It is not a good deal in any form or way.

Search for European Delivery and get a 2011 M3 nicely configured to your taste, brand fricking new with the incomparable new leather smell and the best car delivery experience that you will ever have... until you go back for another one.

If done right you should be paying more or less the same $57-60K...
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      12-25-2009, 10:30 AM   #34
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I did a 08 E92 with DCT with 6K miles for low 50s. Don't be in such a hurry.
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      12-25-2009, 11:42 AM   #35
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alright i guess i will be waiting on a different m3.. a couple of non CPO m3s have been reducing in price as i can assume noone is really in the market to buy a 50k car in these economic times.. the dealer told me to not even call him with a offer like low 50s he told me to only call if i can over 57k or more.. so i guess i will wait for another m3 or see if he lowers his price knowing it wont sell for that price! also 2010 is coming up and i am guessing i can use that to my advantage! oh and merry christmas to everyone hope you guys have a good and safe one! =)
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      12-25-2009, 09:57 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by infamxkris View Post
alright i guess i will be waiting on a different m3.. a couple of non CPO m3s have been reducing in price as i can assume noone is really in the market to buy a 50k car in these economic times.. the dealer told me to not even call him with a offer like low 50s he told me to only call if i can over 57k or more.. so i guess i will wait for another m3 or see if he lowers his price knowing it wont sell for that price! also 2010 is coming up and i am guessing i can use that to my advantage! oh and merry christmas to everyone hope you guys have a good and safe one! =)
Just curious, what part of the country are you in?
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      12-25-2009, 11:06 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by warzilla View Post
Just curious, what part of the country are you in?
queens, new york, USA
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      12-27-2009, 02:17 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by infamxkris View Post
alright i guess i will be waiting on a different m3.. a couple of non CPO m3s have been reducing in price as i can assume noone is really in the market to buy a 50k car in these economic times.. the dealer told me to not even call him with a offer like low 50s he told me to only call if i can over 57k or more.. so i guess i will wait for another m3 or see if he lowers his price knowing it wont sell for that price! also 2010 is coming up and i am guessing i can use that to my advantage! oh and merry christmas to everyone hope you guys have a good and safe one! =)
I think you're made a wise decision. I'd stay away from that dealer in the future as they don't seem reasonable or willing to deal. (They remind me of the "Auto Maul" dealers we have in my area....) I'm not sure what things are like re: bringing in out-of-state cars to NY (tax, license, law/expense considerations, etc.) but if that's a viable option you might have more to choose from if you can hit surrounding states....
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      12-28-2009, 01:30 PM   #39
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little update guys.. the dealer dosent stop emailing me and asking if i can do 57k.. i am guessing he wants to get rid of the car before the end of the year and i am also guessing noone is really calling about it.. I think its only a matter of time till he breaks down! what would be a reasonable offer? i was only planning on spending 50k.. any ideas on what should be my max offer that is reasonable for the car?
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      12-28-2009, 01:43 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by infamxkris View Post
little update guys.. the dealer dosent stop emailing me and asking if i can do 57k.. i am guessing he wants to get rid of the car before the end of the year and i am also guessing noone is really calling about it.. I think its only a matter of time till he breaks down! what would be a reasonable offer? i was only planning on spending 50k.. any ideas on what should be my max offer that is reasonable for the car?
$47K plus tax after January 1st sounds reasonable to me, and that's because of the M-DCT.
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      12-28-2009, 01:58 PM   #41
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^^ i just asked for 50k out the door is that what you meant technic?
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      12-28-2009, 03:52 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by infamxkris View Post
^^ i just asked for 50k out the door is that what you meant technic?
Sounds about right... again, this is a three model-year old M3 with 18,000 miles in a market that has seen the M3 sales tank in those same three model years.

CPO or not the sucker is quite used and it seems that there's no line of customers looking to get this particular M3, according to the dealer's phone calls... only you.
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      12-28-2009, 09:26 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Technic View Post
Sounds about right... again, this is a three model-year old M3 with 18,000 miles in a market that has seen the M3 sales tank in those same three model years.

CPO or not the sucker is quite used and it seems that there's no line of customers looking to get this particular M3, according to the dealer's phone calls... only you.
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      12-29-2009, 09:51 AM   #44
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60k for this car is WAY to high. If your serious about it then go in with an offer of 50k-51k and close at around 52k. In all honestly I wouldn't pay more than that.
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