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      01-17-2007, 01:55 AM   #23
Daneel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krazykanuck
But going along with what somebody else said, I think American schools taught in english should only hire people that have enough proficiency to be able to teach their students and have the students understand and learn from them.
I would be inclined to agree with you, with the caveat that if someone is a great researcher, then s/he should be put through a few months of spoken English training. Most of these people have excellent written English skills; it's just their spoken English that is lacking.
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      01-17-2007, 02:40 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Alpine
Welcome to college. Get used to not getting anything out of lectures. Learning everything yourself isn't always the worst thing. Keeps you responsible and builds character... but still sucks! Hang in there.
+1

If you can't learn CS, Physics, or any number of courses from someone from another country, you aren’t going to be able to function in the field. I'm one of the 5 crackers in my entire department of 20 academic appointments, and I'm glad that I learned to 'speak science' before I entered my profession. Now imagine what your prof and countless other uber talented immigrant faculty had to go through learning their trade in (at least) two languages... this within the context of their native university system and then having to lecture on it in front of an American audience as a new hire. If nothing else, it will focus you on the science in CS. Every prof I had that lectured from a 2nd language tested more from the text than the lecture, which is a good thing as an undergraduate. And "a few months of spoken English training" dosent go very far unless that training is field specific, which isn't available to most until after they are hired in the US. It isn't like ordering food in France. In my academic field, research immunology, we'd be lucky to hire a single applicant per year (in a hiring cycle of 5) if we didn't draw from the enormous pool of highly educated, often overqualified, foreign applicants. A meritocracy is seldom convenient.
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      01-17-2007, 03:40 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edgarj
+1

If you can't learn CS, Physics, or any number of courses from someone from another country, you arenít going to be able to function in the field. I'm one of the 5 crackers in my entire department of 20 academic appointments, and I'm glad that I learned to 'speak science' before I entered my profession. Now imagine what your prof and countless other uber talented immigrant faculty had to go through learning their trade in (at least) two languages... this within the context of their native university system and then having to lecture on it in front of an American audience as a new hire. If nothing else, it will focus you on the science in CS. Every prof I had that lectured from a 2nd language tested more from the text than the lecture, which is a good thing as an undergraduate. And "a few months of spoken English training" dosent go very far unless that training is field specific, which isn't available to most until after they are hired in the US. It isn't like ordering food in France. In my academic field, research immunology, we'd be lucky to hire a single applicant per year (in a hiring cycle of 5) if we didn't draw from the enormous pool of highly educated, often overqualified, foreign applicants. A meritocracy is seldom convenient.

I wouldn't have thought that a few months of spoken english training would be sufficient either. However, most call center people in India are relatively understandable (no worse than say, a British accent). And those guys get just a few days/weeks of American "accent" and culture training.
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      01-17-2007, 03:41 AM   #26
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Man, I just skmmed over some of the earlier posts at first... just read them verbatim. I wouldn't have even comented so verbosely in my previous post if I knew what was being tossed around so casually. I'm pretty embarased to be a menber of this community if this attitude is representitive of e90post. Maybe best if off-topic means "off-topic but still car related", but even that will turn ugly based on this thread.
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      01-17-2007, 03:53 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edgarj
+1

If you can't learn CS, Physics, or any number of courses from someone from another country, you arenít going to be able to function in the field. I'm one of the 5 crackers in my entire department of 20 academic appointments, and I'm glad that I learned to 'speak science' before I entered my profession. Now imagine what your prof and countless other uber talented immigrant faculty had to go through learning their trade in (at least) two languages... this within the context of their native university system and then having to lecture on it in front of an American audience as a new hire. If nothing else, it will focus you on the science in CS. Every prof I had that lectured from a 2nd language tested more from the text than the lecture, which is a good thing as an undergraduate. And "a few months of spoken English training" dosent go very far unless that training is field specific, which isn't available to most until after they are hired in the US. It isn't like ordering food in France. In my academic field, research immunology, we'd be lucky to hire a single applicant per year (in a hiring cycle of 5) if we didn't draw from the enormous pool of highly educated, often overqualified, foreign applicants. A meritocracy is seldom convenient.
you really shouldnt talk not knowing the situation first hand , i should record this guy and post the file, he is NOT UNDERSTANDABLE and its the whole class not just me
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      01-17-2007, 03:54 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edgarj
Man, I just skmmed over some of the earlier posts at first... just read them verbatim. I wouldn't have even comented so verbosely in my previous post if I knew what was being tossed around so casually. I'm pretty embarased to be a menber of this community if this attitude is representitive of e90post. Maybe best if off-topic means "off-topic but still car related", but even that will turn ugly based on this thread.
Yes, it's why I flew off the handle a bit. Look at related posts by the OP about the guy who sits next to him and smells. People instantly jumped to the conclusion that it's the INDIAN professor who smells, without even reading the OP's post properly. He was talking about his CLASSMATE who smells, and who's ethnicity is NOT mentioned, and then a bunch of assholes came to the conclusion that 1) Somebody smells 2) Indian professor therefore 3) Indian professor smells and therefore 4) Hygene in the middle-east/India is not what it is in the US.

I mean wtf? Amongst people in India who have access to running water (poverty line and above), 100% bathe every day, and MOST bathe 2-3 times a day in the summer.

It's a different issue that different ethnic groups have different body odors related to their diet (to a lot of asian/indian people, Americans stink because of the high beef intake).

But then extrapolating that to "oh, their personal hygene standards are lower" is borderline racist, and DEFINITELY ignorant.
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      01-17-2007, 03:56 AM   #29
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if you didn't mention "indian" no one would've said you are a racist...(not saying that you are, but it's just sensitive when you are blaming someone)
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      01-17-2007, 03:57 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daneel
Yes, it's why I flew off the handle a bit. Look at related posts by the OP about the guy who sits next to him and smells. People instantly jumped to the conclusion that it's the INDIAN professor who smells, without even reading the OP's post properly. He was talking about his CLASSMATE who smells, and who's ethnicity is NOT mentioned, and then a bunch of assholes came to the conclusion that 1) Somebody smells 2) Indian professor therefore 3) Indian professor smells and therefore 4) Hygene in the middle-east/India is not what it is in the US.

I mean wtf? Amongst people in India who have access to running water (poverty line and above), 100% bathe every day, and MOST bathe 2-3 times a day in the summer.

It's a different issue that different ethnic groups have different body odors related to their diet (to a lot of asian/indian people, Americans stink because of the high beef intake).

But then extrapolating that to "oh, their personal hygene standards are lower" is borderline racist, and DEFINITELY ignorant.

yea i did notice that, someone made a post i think the first or second reply saying somehting about indian spices, i corrected them but they both got deleted (dont know why mine did )


oh and i would rather sit their staring at the wall trying to figure out what the proff was saying then ever sit near that guy again, that smell stuck with me for hours
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      01-17-2007, 04:06 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LateralG
if you didn't mention "indian" no one would've said you are a racist...(not saying that you are, but it's just sensitive when you are blaming someone)
I don't see anything wrong with the OP's post. I agree with him that people who are teaching or coming to the US should learn to speak the language to an understandable degree.

But when people start taking that to extremes like "we should only hire 'mericans before taking in any of those furners", I get really pissed off. It reeks of an undeserved sense of entitlement that is reminiscent of the 16 year kid who get a BMW 325i, but shouts and screams because his/her parents refused to get him/her a 650i

Note that I am not bagging on the younger members here. if I ever have a kid, and make good money, I'll be the first to get them a nice car. I'm bagging on kids who get the nice car, but then throw a tantrum coz they did not get an even nicer one.

However, I do take slight issue with the OP's joke in the related thread of body odors; Teknochild, you did point out that it's your classmate who smells, and not the professor, but you also said that the professor probably smells too. On what basis? Does he "look" like he does not shower? Or are you basing that joke on his bad English skills?
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      01-17-2007, 04:08 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daneel
I wouldn't have thought that a few months of spoken english training would be sufficient either. However, most call center people in India are relatively understandable (no worse than say, a British accent). And those guys get just a few days/weeks of American "accent" and culture training.

I can't believe that you equate call center workers (in India, which is far more English oriented being a former British colony, LOL) with university professors. Conveying your point in your field is really easy amongst peers. At conferences, those who try too hard to speak English are a distraction more often than those who treat their data as language. The fact is, if language is a consideration in hiring of academic faculty, then we will end up with two faculties: one that "talks American" and one that earned his/her position based on merit. In many fields, these will be two very different entities and as university budgets are slashed, we have to decide on which paradigm we wish to base our hiring. Our leadership in the sciences will disappear if we choose the former. Our leadership in the sciences exists solely as a function of our meritorious tradition in higher education.

Every time Iíve ever heard this complaint, itís either been from the most mediocre student justifying his/her lack of performance in a course or from an utter racist who resents being instructed by someone who doesnít fit his/her cultural ideal of a mentor. Either way, itís pathetic.
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      01-17-2007, 04:14 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edgarj
I can't believe that you equate call center workers (in India, which is far more English oriented being a former British colony, LOL) with university professors. Conveying your point in your field is really easy amongst peers. At conferences, those who try too hard to speak English are a distraction more often than those who treat their data as language. The fact is, if language is a consideration in hiring of academic faculty, then we will end up with two faculties: one that "talks American" and one that earned his/her position based on merit. In many fields, these will be two very different entities and as university budgets are slashed, we have to decide on which paradigm we wish to base our hiring. Our leadership in the sciences will disappear if we choose the former. Our leadership in the sciences exists solely as a function of our meritorious tradition in higher education.

Every time Iíve ever heard this complaint, itís either been from the most mediocre student justifying his/her lack of performance in a course or from an utter racist who resents being instructed by someone who doesnít fit his/her cultural ideal of a mentor. Either way, itís pathetic.
I don't equate call center workers with professors

I think that AFTER the person has been offered the job, IF their students have trouble understanding their accent, then a few lessons in pronounciation should help. I am not saying that spoken language skills be a criteria for getting the job.

Btw, as it stands right now, comprehending spoken English with an American accent, and speaking English ARE a requirement if you accept a TA-ship at a graduate school. There is a test called the TOEFL (Test Of English as a Foreign Language) and TSE (Test of Spoken English). Both are mandatory as far as I know.

If accent and pronounciation are still issues after arriving in the US, then some basic pronounciation training can go a long way.
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      01-17-2007, 04:16 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edgarj
Every time Iíve ever heard this complaint, itís either been from the most mediocre student justifying his/her lack of performance in a course or from an utter racist who resents being instructed by someone who doesnít fit his/her cultural ideal of a mentor. Either way, itís pathetic.
Yes, I agree with this 98%. It's pathetic, and offensive. Take, for example, the guy who has trouble learning Visual Basic.

There are 2% of cases where there truly is a communication gap, however, and I'll give the OP the benefit of the doubt here.
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      01-17-2007, 04:21 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edgarj
Every time I’ve ever heard this complaint, it’s either been from the most mediocre student justifying his/her lack of performance in a course or from an utter racist who resents being instructed by someone who doesn’t fit his/her cultural ideal of a mentor. Either way, it’s pathetic.
are you an idiot? yes my performance in this class is HORRIBLE, ive manage to start failing after TWO CLASSES

i really wish you could be there to hear this guy, after he walked in and started talking i looked around to see the look on everyone elses faces, and everyone else was looking around too like WTF
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      01-17-2007, 04:39 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daneel

If accent and pronounciation are still issues after arriving in the US, then some basic pronounciation training can go a long way.
Good call, Daneel. I knew there was something that the thousands of foreign born field-leaders at US universities were missing: Pronunciation classes. It is, of course, a matter of applying one's self to a pronunciation course. The professors from Japan, for instance, are super lazy nerds who didn't study their 'pronunciation manual' well enough to get their R's and L's right. I especially hate a Physics professor who neglects his pronunciation manual because he's too distracted by string theory.

Do you think that all languages are of such similar structure that assimilation from one to another is a matter of "pronunciation training"Ö. With a little effort, even Borat speaks pretty good American. Maybe from one romance language to another, but why don't you try a Chinese or Russian 'pronunciation manual' relevant to your discipline and then comment on the ease of assimilation. You should really publish this shit. It's new. If nothing else, all of those lazy professors will have to explain why they didn't spend more time on "basic pronunciation training" while they were contributing to their field.
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      01-17-2007, 04:45 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edgarj
The professors from Japan, for instance, are super lazy nerds who didn't study their 'pronunciation manual' well enough to get their R's and L's right.
wow good job mr "this board is full of racists" not a hypocrit at all

japanese is nothing like indian, AFAIK indian -> english has to learn a hell of a lot less new phonetic terms comapred to japanese -> english so its not even fair to compare the two in the first place
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      01-17-2007, 05:11 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teknochild
wow good job mr "this board is full of racists" not a hypocrit at all

japanese is nothing like indian, AFAIK indian -> english has to learn a hell of a lot less new phonetic terms comapred to japanese -> english so its not even fair to compare the two in the first place
Good luck in your classes. And thanks for sharing your cultural dilemma with the board. It certainly enlightened me to your cultural perspective, and to the plight of so many within this great country. It's truly a tragedy that a young scholar like yourself would have to endure foreign talk in classes at your American university. This truly speaks to the heart of our country, as it shows how mixed up we've become in our instruction of our youth. When you exit the artificial world of academia, things will become much easier. In CS, for instance, very few people will be from non-English backgrounds. I'm sure that you will reach out to those from other countries and help them with both your skills in code and pronunciation. In turn, perhaps they will teach you their pronunciation skills as an anecdote to the exchange of knowledge. This thread started out as a run of the mill racist diatribe, but now it's morphed into a cultural allegory that truly transcends e90post.com. I truly hope that you are able to share this with your tongue-tied prof so that he may see how little really separates us in this big melting pot we call the US and A.
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      01-17-2007, 07:26 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teknochild
are you an idiot? yes my performance in this class is HORRIBLE, ive manage to start failing after TWO CLASSES

i really wish you could be there to hear this guy, after he walked in and started talking i looked around to see the look on everyone elses faces, and everyone else was looking around too like WTF
maybe it wud help if u stop looking around the class and try to concentrate on wat the professor is saying.... also it wud b a good idea to do some reading up b4 the class, believe me, its helped me in the past
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      01-17-2007, 03:39 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pacman
maybe it wud help if u stop looking around the class and try to concentrate on wat the professor is saying.... also it wud b a good idea to do some reading up b4 the class, believe me, its helped me in the past
you seriously didnt catch the sarcasm there?
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      01-17-2007, 10:54 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teknochild
you seriously didnt catch the sarcasm there?
dude....i know wat u were trying to say... i was in college not too long ago...
the first part of my statement was just a joke, but i meant the second part.
good luck!!
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