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      12-11-2009, 03:25 AM   #155
M3 vert
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Originally Posted by slammedm3 View Post
I do understand what he is saying, aswell as what you are saying. I just can't justify the high lease payment to let it sit in the garage, and in 3 years give it back to BMW (knowing the next owner most likely won't ever know or appreciate the fact that the car was "never winter driven"). I say enjoy it, its a blast to drive in the snow and move on..If you saw my car in the summer, you would never think its even seen a single drop of rain, let alone massive snow storms and salt galore!


Yes slammed I understand if you are leasing the car, I wouldn't have cared either for the winter!
I would have felt comfortable driving it all year around if it was leased too since I dont own the car and could care less about chips, salt, paint damage, ground clearance, higher risk of getting hit etc.

I spend a lot of time out west in the guelph/kitchener/waterloo area where its even worse conditions then toronto, most roads have black ice, salt and snow all season

Last year I put the M away from December - March first week.

This year it was literally this week to probably march first week, meh hardly 3 months?

Since I bought mine out and plan on keeping her for a while unless I find something better! And I have access to other decent rides, why should I drive it in the winter


You have been in the detailing business and your cousin is in it still! and you are extra meticulous with your car so no matter what the weather it will always look nice all year around

And whenever you go for long road trips, you still cheat and save the M sometimes

Quote:
Originally Posted by slammedm3 View Post
FYI, M3 Vert has NOT lowered or put a front lip on his car, to my knowledge the car is stock!
You are right its stock, but I still bottom out in some of the parking lots during the year, imagine with snow in waterloo

FYI:
Slammed,

Subzero temperatures are also not good for the rubber seals in our verts, as per the shop foreman at BMW Toronto.

1. Rubber is being exposed to subzero extreme temperatures which can cause cracks in the seals leading to creaks and windnoises over time

2. If going through touchless (which you told me you use in the winter)
Water getting in and freezing will expand and stress the seals again and over time cause similar issues.

However, most of these issues wont be immediate but over time it may cause creaks, rattles, wind noises, which I would rather avoid too

But since you are leasing, again I know its not a big deal for you!
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      12-11-2009, 03:31 AM   #156
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Originally Posted by dcstep View Post
Enjoy driving your 7-series (old man's car) in your shitty winter weather Mr. 'vert.

Dave

Well in that case I suppose the M3 is a young man's car?

I suppose no old people should be driving it now, should they

Lets do a poll Mr. Dave on M3 drivers, and I think you would be quite surprised
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      12-11-2009, 03:36 AM   #157
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I never doubted the M3's capability, but I would rather be driving the LX when I am going through that



Quote:
Originally Posted by signes View Post
M3vert...

I've lived in Detroit, Chicago, and New York for over 30 years and believe me Denver winters are worse when it comes to snow and temperature extremes. Much better in terms of average temperature and sunny days, but the snow and cold can be intense. We got 2 feet of snow in about a day this October, which honestly is not unusual. Huge dumps are common, like the one below. You can't tell but that is my E46 M3 'vert, did just fine during our storm a few years back that brought 3 feet (no exaggeration) and closed a bunch of roads. I merrily trucked on past literally hundreds of stranded cars but was forced to get off the highway when they shut it down and stay in a hotel. I came out to this in the morning...



Loved the looks on people's faces when I cleared off the snow and drove away. I drove this vert year round for 60k miles and when I traded it in, I was told it was the nicest E46 they had seen. Just needs washing/detailing to keep nice like any other car.

Driven sensibly, an M3 with proper snows is every bit as capable or more so than other cars. Great balance, handling and safety. The only area where you really lose out is traction to an AWD car with equivalent tires. And AWD/4WD doesn't help when it comes to stopping...
Who told you that?
AWD/4WD would get better grip, braking and stopping times especially with the new technology in luxury vehicles these days!

I mean if that was the case, why would they make 4-Matic versions in Mercedes S,E,C classes and why did they launch the X-Drive in the 7 series this year.

Clearly, there was a demand for these kind of systems!
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      12-11-2009, 10:10 AM   #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 vert View Post
Yes slammed I understand if you are leasing the car, I wouldn't have cared either for the winter!
I would have felt comfortable driving it all year around if it was leased too since I dont own the car and could care less about chips, salt, paint damage, ground clearance, higher risk of getting hit etc.

I spend a lot of time out west in the guelph/kitchener/waterloo area where its even worse conditions then toronto, most roads have black ice, salt and snow all season

Last year I put the M away from December - March first week.

This year it was literally this week to probably march first week, meh hardly 3 months?

Since I bought mine out and plan on keeping her for a while unless I find something better! And I have access to other decent rides, why should I drive it in the winter


You have been in the detailing business and your cousin is in it still! and you are extra meticulous with your car so no matter what the weather it will always look nice all year around

And whenever you go for long road trips, you still cheat and save the M sometimes



You are right its stock, but I still bottom out in some of the parking lots during the year, imagine with snow in waterloo

FYI:
Slammed,

Subzero temperatures are also not good for the rubber seals in our verts, as per the shop foreman at BMW Toronto.

1. Rubber is being exposed to subzero extreme temperatures which can cause cracks in the seals leading to creaks and windnoises over time

2. If going through touchless (which you told me you use in the winter)
Water getting in and freezing will expand and stress the seals again and over time cause similar issues.

However, most of these issues wont be immediate but over time it may cause creaks, rattles, wind noises, which I would rather avoid too

But since you are leasing, again I know its not a big deal for you!
I agree with everything you said, therefore lease = FTW
I do care about stone chips and stuff like that, therefore I respray the bumper in the spring and it looks brand new again!!
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      12-11-2009, 10:17 AM   #159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 vert View Post
I never doubted the M3's capability, but I would rather be driving the LX when I am going through that





Who told you that?
AWD/4WD would get better grip, braking and stopping times especially with the new technology in luxury vehicles these days!

I mean if that was the case, why would they make 4-Matic versions in Mercedes S,E,C classes and why did they launch the X-Drive in the 7 series this year.

Clearly, there was a demand for these kind of systems!
Im gonna disagree with you here, how could you think that AWD/4WD would give you better braking ? wheres the logic in that? AWD will help you get started and start moving, and it will help you not get stuck in big/deep snow. But why in the world would it help you stop?

Your right, there is a demand for these systems, because they provide traction where a FWD or RWD can't. But it DOES NOT help with braking or stopping distances AT ALL.
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      12-11-2009, 10:37 AM   #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 vert View Post
Well in that case I suppose the M3 is a young man's car?

I suppose no old people should be driving it now, should they

Lets do a poll Mr. Dave on M3 drivers, and I think you would be quite surprised
You can start with me, I am 65.....
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      12-11-2009, 11:20 AM   #161
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Well in that case I suppose the M3 is a young man's car?

I suppose no old people should be driving it now, should they

Lets do a poll Mr. Dave on M3 drivers, and I think you would be quite surprised
You think you know everything, don't you? Why would I be surprised?

I'm 61. I might enjoy a 5-series, particularly an M5, but the 7-series is an old fart's car, IMHO.

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      12-11-2009, 11:28 AM   #162
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Originally Posted by M3 vert View Post

Who told you that?
AWD/4WD would get better grip, braking and stopping times especially with the new technology in luxury vehicles these days!

I mean if that was the case, why would they make 4-Matic versions in Mercedes S,E,C classes and why did they launch the X-Drive in the 7 series this year.

Clearly, there was a demand for these kind of systems!
Read Car & Driver's recent winter tire comparison. Winter tires trump four-wheel drive for stopping and cornering. All wheel drive has the advantage on acceleration and nothing else.

People like four wheel drive because it gives better acceleration. Unfortunately, many misplace confidence and think that their X-drive is superior in all other aspects when it's not. Too many people here in Colorado drive their SUVs and X-drives with 4-season tires because of their misguided and misplaced confidence in four wheel drive, right before they ram the concrete median or plow into a Canadian M3 stopped at a light. Four wheel drive cars benefit from winter tires just as much as rear drive cars.

Dave
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      12-11-2009, 12:14 PM   #163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 vert View Post
Who told you that?
AWD/4WD would get better grip, braking and stopping times especially with the new technology in luxury vehicles these days!

I mean if that was the case, why would they make 4-Matic versions in Mercedes S,E,C classes and why did they launch the X-Drive in the 7 series this year.

Clearly, there was a demand for these kind of systems!
Absolutely false on the braking - AWD/4WD has nothing to do with stopping capabilities. On snow and ice, the deciding factor will always be your interface with the surface - your tires. Once you consider that, it's actually less advantageous to have a heavier, imbalanced vehicle (such as an SUV) when it comes to emergency maneuvers and stopping. When I drive the mountain passes here in the Cascades (which is the snowiest place in the world, mind you - Mount Baker and the North Cascades can receive over 100 feet of snow per year), the vast majority of accidents and stranded vehicles I see are SUVs. Why? Because drivers of said vehicles believe that they can defy physics:

"I can start better so therefore I must be able to stop better."

Please.
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      12-11-2009, 12:19 PM   #164
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Agree with the posters who say that AWD does NOT help in braking on snow or ice. I have had both AWD and RWD; and AWD does help get going, but not stopping. I have also driven FWD in the snow, and like it the least.

Also, agree that drivers of SUVs & trucks with AWD tend to "overdrive" their vehicles falsely thinking they can stop and handle better. On most mountain roads/passes up here in the winter, the majority of vehicles in trouble will be SUVs/trucks. That is just an observation, not backed up by statistical facts.
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      12-11-2009, 02:22 PM   #165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slammedm3 View Post
Im gonna disagree with you here, how could you think that AWD/4WD would give you better braking ? wheres the logic in that? AWD will help you get started and start moving, and it will help you not get stuck in big/deep snow. But why in the world would it help you stop?

Your right, there is a demand for these systems, because they provide traction where a FWD or RWD can't. But it DOES NOT help with braking or stopping distances AT ALL.
Thanks slammed (and others).

For M3 Vert, think about what actually happens when you are braking - no accelerative force being applied so no advantage when 2 wheels are being driven over 4. As for "who told you that?" Nobody, just common sense.
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      12-11-2009, 05:15 PM   #166
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Agree with the posters who say that AWD does NOT help in braking on snow or ice. I have had both AWD and RWD; and AWD does help get going, but not stopping. I have also driven FWD in the snow, and like it the least.

Also, agree that drivers of SUVs & trucks with AWD tend to "overdrive" their vehicles falsely thinking they can stop and handle better. On most mountain roads/passes up here in the winter, the majority of vehicles in trouble will be SUVs/trucks. That is just an observation, not backed up by statistical facts.
So true. You see this in the mountains here on a daily basis.
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      12-11-2009, 07:41 PM   #167
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You think you know everything, don't you? Why would I be surprised?

I'm 61. I might enjoy a 5-series, particularly an M5, but the 7-series is an old fart's car, IMHO.
Dave
I am in my 20s and still appreciate the 7 series for what it is.

However, dont make statements like that.

Trust me you would be surprised how many YUPPIES and people I know who drive and appreciate big luxury sedans.
(mind you the 7 series is the driver's car from the S Class, Lexus LS, Audi A8!).

Its everyone's taste and just becase your an old fart and think the 7 is one too doesnt make it one
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      12-11-2009, 07:45 PM   #168
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So true. You see this in the mountains here on a daily basis.
I couldn't agree more, most SUVs get into accidents because of that false hope, so depends on the DRIVER!.

But comeon in a storm like that....I would feel safer in a big SUV as oppose to a sportscar like a M3.


Think about it, if you get into an accident...from a safety prospective, I think you probably have better chances in that tank called the LX (OR anyother SUV), not the M3
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      12-11-2009, 07:49 PM   #169
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Originally Posted by dcstep View Post
Read Car & Driver's recent winter tire comparison. Winter tires trump four-wheel drive for stopping and cornering. All wheel drive has the advantage on acceleration and nothing else.

People like four wheel drive because it gives better acceleration. Unfortunately, many misplace confidence and think that their X-drive is superior in all other aspects when it's not. Too many people here in Colorado drive their SUVs and X-drives with 4-season tires because of their misguided and misplaced confidence in four wheel drive, right before they ram the concrete median or plow into a Canadian M3 stopped at a light. Four wheel drive cars benefit from winter tires just as much as rear drive cars.

Dave
....Canadian M3 ?

You wanna clarify this Grandpa?
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      12-11-2009, 07:57 PM   #170
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....Canadian M3 ?

You wanna clarify this Grandpa?
Don't let him get to you.. He frequently makes inflammatory statements in his posts.
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      12-11-2009, 07:59 PM   #171
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Im gonna disagree with you here, how could you think that AWD/4WD would give you better braking ? wheres the logic in that? AWD will help you get started and start moving, and it will help you not get stuck in big/deep snow. But why in the world would it help you stop?

Your right, there is a demand for these systems, because they provide traction where a FWD or RWD can't. But it DOES NOT help with braking or stopping distances AT ALL.
Yes, thats my bad...come to think of it your right.

The 4WD/AWD would give better traction and handling but NOT Braking!.

I guess the braking system used in 4WD/AWD could be a little different to the RWD braking systems, but it could be argued
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      12-11-2009, 08:05 PM   #172
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Thanks slammed (and others).

For M3 Vert, think about what actually happens when you are braking - no accelerative force being applied so no advantage when 2 wheels are being driven over 4. As for "who told you that?" Nobody, just common sense.
Yes I see the light

However, its that false sense of hope when you are sitting high up in that SUV which makes you feel that you might stop faster but in reality its not the case!

However, I still keep my word that there are better alternatives in the winter and certainly in conditions like signes described with his m3 vert covered in snow!
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      12-11-2009, 08:19 PM   #173
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...

Trust me you would be surprised how many YUPPIES and people I know who drive and appreciate big luxury sedans.
(mind you the 7 series is the driver's car from the S Class, Lexus LS, Audi A8!).
Oh, YUPPIES, now I understand where you're coming from...

Dave
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      12-11-2009, 08:24 PM   #174
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....Canadian M3 ?

You wanna clarify this Grandpa?
WTF?

You're the one that brought that possibility up, YUPPIE. Go reread your own posts. You listed that as one of your reasons that none of us should drive our M3s in winter conditions.

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      12-11-2009, 08:42 PM   #175
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Oh, YUPPIES, now I understand where you're coming from...

Dave



I mean what are you some sort of redneck who hasnt heard this word before
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      12-11-2009, 08:45 PM   #176
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WTF?

You're the one that brought that possibility up, YUPPIE. Go reread your own posts. You listed that as one of your reasons that none of us should drive our M3s in winter conditions.
Dave

I said I would never do it, beause I have other vehicles such as the flagship OLD FARTS the LX570 and the 760Li

For a senior, you sure are thick
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