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      10-08-2009, 10:33 AM   #67
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I'm sure many people buy a car based on look as it is the most important part of the purchase decision (otherwise, we would all be driving some rav4 or crv right now).
Actually I'll bet that most enthusiasts are primarly concerned with performance. I know I am. Luckily most cars that perform well also look good. There are plenty of exceptions of course, but when form follows function, and function is "to be an exciting means of transportation", then usually the form is quite pleasing. Probably this is partly because we are somewhat trained to judge the beauty of a car by how it performs (or appears like it should perform). For someone looking for a vehicle with some utility and fairly good fuel economy, the RAV4 or CRV may well be beautiful. It's just that those traits just happen not to be valued by most car enthusiats.

Still, I would not call anyone a fanboy just for prefering an SUV over a sport sedan. However, it is certainly a curious leap to take. I don't think the OP has any interest in an SUV but I could be mistaken.

Also, it is a bit curious that you mentioned liking a lot of different SUVs:

"fx and x6 are best looking SUV in my book. merc g55 amg are sick, and cayenne is not too bad especially the turbo is aggresive looking. I'm not attracted to any other SUV."

But left out the Audi Q7 which to me is worlds better looking than the Cayenne with which it shares a platform. The Q7 V12 Diesel would make a compelling alternative to the Porsche Turbo, I'll bet.
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      10-08-2009, 11:00 AM   #68
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Bruce,

If I may I will pick you up on a couple of points regarding AWD (regardless of brand)...
I won't disagree on any point (and they're well made), but as a practical matter it's immaterial. Those who are lulled by ease of takeoff (like me in '87) are going to drive too quickly for conditions - plus the primary point of my note was and is that snow tires are your consistent friend in snow, while AWD drives inconsistently (dry road vs snow) compared with RWD or FWD.

If you're knowledgable and trained, point made - but then you're probably not going overdrive your car in snow, are you.
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      10-08-2009, 11:15 AM   #69
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I won't disagree on any point (and they're well made), but as a practical matter it's immaterial. Those who are lulled by ease of takeoff (like me in '87) are going to drive too quickly for conditions - plus the primary point of my note was and is that snow tires are your consistent friend in snow, while AWD drives inconsistently (dry road vs snow) compared with RWD or FWD.

If you're knowledgable and trained, point made - but then you're probably not going overdrive your car in snow, are you.
Quite right, that is why I tried to highlight the importance of training because without it an AWD car like you said can become a death trap because it gives false impressions of what the surface is exactly like. I will say this too, an awd system that constantly drives both axles instead of reacting to slip is by far and the best option in snow.

P.S.
Given the choice of 2WD forms I would pick FWD before RWD because most of the weight is over the driven axle, so you have better engine braking and better overall grip for these conditions.

Lesson over for today.
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      10-08-2009, 11:22 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
Actually I'll bet that most enthusiasts are primarly concerned with performance. I know I am. Luckily most cars that perform well also look good. There are plenty of exceptions of course, but when form follows function, and function is "to be an exciting means of transportation", then usually the form is quite pleasing. Probably this is partly because we are somewhat trained to judge the beauty of a car by how it performs (or appears like it should perform). For someone looking for a vehicle with some utility and fairly good fuel economy, the RAV4 or CRV may well be beautiful. It's just that those traits just happen not to be valued by most car enthusiats.

Still, I would not call anyone a fanboy just for prefering an SUV over a sport sedan. However, it is certainly a curious leap to take. I don't think the OP has any interest in an SUV but I could be mistaken.

Also, it is a bit curious that you mentioned liking a lot of different SUVs:

"fx and x6 are best looking SUV in my book. merc g55 amg are sick, and cayenne is not too bad especially the turbo is aggresive looking. I'm not attracted to any other SUV."

But left out the Audi Q7 which to me is worlds better looking than the Cayenne with which it shares a platform. The Q7 V12 Diesel would make a compelling alternative to the Porsche Turbo, I'll bet.
no, I think the q7 is nice, but the shape is a bit short in height which made the rims look too big for it. kinda odd shape. give it a few inches taller and it should be a decent looking SUV. so no, I would pick many other SUV before consider the q7. I sat in the Q7 and felt that the driver seating position is too low for an SUV. there is no point to buy an SUV but you can't have that commanding view of the road.

I'm not saying car enthusiasts don't buy car based on performance, but that is not the only main reason. like you can have lot of performance in an sti, evo, etc but many choose the m3 because of the look, badge, heritage, total package, whatever really doesn't matter. But I'm sure look is one big part of the purchase decision even to a car enthusiast. That's why most of us would mod the exterior of the car right?
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      11-10-2009, 04:43 PM   #71
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In stock form definitely not comparable to M3. MTM already has a chip tune that increases hp to 430 and torque to 380. Pretty serious increase with just a tune- no pulley, no exhaust, etc.

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      11-10-2009, 05:01 PM   #72
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Hmmm, the way it sounds I think I would take the S4 if I were you. I like the M3 better because of more rigid more dedicated chassis, but that is just me.
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      11-29-2009, 12:19 PM   #73
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In stock form definitely not comparable to M3. MTM already has a chip tune that increases hp to 430 and torque to 380. Pretty serious increase with just a tune- no pulley, no exhaust, etc.

MTM chip may not be all it's cracked up to be in terms of gains over stock. There's a long thread on audizine b8 s4 forum that shows APR's dyno at over 300 to the wheels stock. There is another members dyno as well that shows over 300 to the wheels...again, bone stock. Audi seems to be underrating the S4 by quite a bit. Interesting read and sounds promising for the S4.

On another note, I love the M3...but I wonder how many people here are blindly saying "M3 power" without having test driven an S4?
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      11-29-2009, 12:29 PM   #74
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MTM chip may not be all it's cracked up to be in terms of gains over stock. There's a long thread on audizine b8 s4 forum that shows APR's dyno at over 300 to the wheels stock. There is another members dyno as well that shows over 300 to the wheels...again, bone stock. Audi seems to be underrating the S4 by quite a bit. Interesting read and sounds promising for the S4.

On another note, I love the M3...but I wonder how many people here are blindly saying "M3 power" without having test driven an S4?
Agreed, but having owned an M3 DCT and driven the S4 on several occasions I can say that while the S4 will put up a good fight at the start, after about 85mph the M3 will start to open a gap, slowly at a start but building as speeds increase. Those that simply have to have rwd will never warm to the S4 but keep an open mind and it can be even more rewarding to drive on the street as the tail slip is not only less but more gradual and easier to bring back.

As for the figure the S4 is really making is up for debate, I know it's more than quoted but doubt it's higher than between 6~8%.
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      11-29-2009, 05:00 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by kalare View Post
MTM chip may not be all it's cracked up to be in terms of gains over stock. There's a long thread on audizine b8 s4 forum that shows APR's dyno at over 300 to the wheels stock. There is another members dyno as well that shows over 300 to the wheels...again, bone stock. Audi seems to be underrating the S4 by quite a bit. Interesting read and sounds promising for the S4.

On another note, I love the M3...but I wonder how many people here are blindly saying "M3 power" without having test driven an S4?
Cause the M3 IS faster.. I'd love to run one modded vs modded it will need over 500hp to walk me though.
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      11-29-2009, 05:30 PM   #76
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Cause the M3 IS faster.. I'd love to run one modded vs modded it will need over 500hp to walk me though.
It all depends on how much the M3 is putting out, if it is putting out close on 500hp then it will need even more to out run the M3 as it weighs more and is driving an extra axle. But least not get carried away, it S4 isn't a slow car and up to 120mph it won't be a million miles away from the M3.
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      11-29-2009, 06:28 PM   #77
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so anyone who pick an SUV over the S4 is a bmw fanboy.
or just because one doesn't like your S4, then they are a fanboy. wow.

did I ever said I picked the x6 over the s4 from a performance perspective? LOL

let's just forget about which one is sport or not or which has better performance. I think the x6 is more exciting to look at than the s4 and for the money, I feel is is more car than the s4, so i will pick it. I'm sure many people buy a car based on look as it is the most important part of the purchase decision (otherwise, we would all be driving some rav4 or crv right now). now you probably hate the x6, but I like it. does that make me a fanboy? how?

like I said it before and I'm gonna say it again. the op mentioned he wanted a car that does good in snow. so I suggested him the x6. awd, turbo, higher ground clearance, more storage. the x6 is no slouch. go test drive one and you may end up with one cause it handle very well for an SUV. plus it looks handsome/unique. unlike the generic S4.

but if he really want a saloon, then m3 over the s4 any days. they are not on the same performance level IMO.

you must be kidding. check all my post and you can see i even suggest infiniti ex35, fx35, etc to other members. I'm really dig infiniti design. I honestly would take the fx35/fx50 over the s4 any days.

fx and x6 are best looking SUV in my book. merc g55 amg are sick, and cayenne is not too bad especially the turbo is aggresive looking. I'm not attracted to any other SUV.

oh and I think the ford edge is not bad looking for the price.

do you really think if someone doens't like audi like how you wanted them to think of audi, then they are not car enthusiast? somehow your argument doesn't make too much sense.

Damn dude, your posts are torture to read. Take your time typing and you might get some more respect.

You're spewing and trying to force your opinion onto others, save your time.. and go take out that puke colored car for a spin

You're sitting there trying to compare sedans to trucks, and cars that aren't even close to being in the same price bracket
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      12-04-2009, 02:13 PM   #78
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I am a long time BMW owner and I've had the 335i, M3 Cab and recently was considering the M3 Sedan vs the S4. The other posts are correct, they are not the same animal. The M3 is a Formula 1 inspired custom designed machine. I realized that buying an S4 is like the AUDI AWD version of a 335i not an M3. After driving the S4, it's nice but not nearly as polished, smooth or balanced. Also, with the S4 you've got power going to those front wheels which produces a small amount of torque and a loss in steering feel.
I went with the M3. Best of luck, both cars are amazing.
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      12-04-2009, 05:46 PM   #79
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i definitely think the s4 is one of the most handsome cars on the market right now
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      12-04-2009, 05:49 PM   #80
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I had been planning on a new M3 to replace my Z4 M coupe when it comes off lease in March but today I drove the new S4. Its a very impressive car and was a hoot to drive. Very fast, very solid and the dual clutch tranny was sweet. The Quattro is a real advantage given all the rain and snow we see in the midwest. The car is more comfortable and practical and with every option (Voice activated Nav, Bang and Olufsen stereo, adjustable suspension and torque distributing rear diff, rear view camera, sunroof, etc etc) is just under 60K. It also gets 28mpg on the highway! Someone please tell me why I should spend 10k more for the M3, I am starting to waver....
i think the S4 is a totally different car. if you want a car with awsome power that looks so great and is almost a race car get the M3 . if you want something more practical and conventional then get the S4
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      12-04-2009, 06:20 PM   #81
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stock for stock, M3 wins. On the track, it could be very close.
with the chip the S4 is going to win on and off the track.
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      12-04-2009, 06:32 PM   #82
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stock for stock, M3 wins. On the track, it could be very close.
with the chip the S4 is going to win on and off the track.
Stock to stock the M3 will win comfortably on the track but it would be closer on the road. Chipped the S4 might get closer on the track but I doubt it would be quicker, on the road it will probably be quicker but either way it will be a close call.
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      12-04-2009, 06:45 PM   #83
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stock for stock, M3 wins. On the track, it could be very close.
with the chip the S4 is going to win on and off the track.
LOL

In your dreams bud..
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      12-04-2009, 08:32 PM   #84
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ah the M3 driver stereotype shines again

Stock for stock most drivers can't drive a M3 to win on the track against a AWD Audi, given equal drivers, the Audi will always win because it is so much more forgiving.
Stock for stock, the M3 has the power on the street and launching a car isn't all that hard compared to pushing it on the track. I love it when people call certain things drivers races, if you like that sort of thing.

Chipped S4 makes what...450+ at the wheel?? That is a good 100whp over the M3?
How is the M3 ever going to keep up when it has no problems putting the power down even with the extra power?

Boosted E92s? I've seen boosted E46 at some 500rwhp with Cup tires at the hands of a PRO (and I mean current racing pro, not driving instructor pro) with my own eyes and as a passanger, and it is just all over the place despite the extra 200rwhp difference, wasn't much faster than my bone stock E46, well at least not 200rwhp faster.

Fact of the matter is, the S4 is a great car as is the M3, but its hard to beat AWD on the track, and its hard to beat traction with RWD especially when you're boosted.

Then again, its just my humble opinion and what i've seen at the track, not the local street races and magazines.

But in the end, my friend bought the B8 S4 and I bought the M3, and we've both made the right decision.

Bottom line, you seriously can't go wrong with either.
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      12-04-2009, 10:00 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by FruitCake View Post
ah the M3 driver stereotype shines again

Stock for stock most drivers can't drive a M3 to win on the track against a AWD Audi, given equal drivers, the Audi will always win because it is so much more forgiving.
Stock for stock, the M3 has the power on the street and launching a car isn't all that hard compared to pushing it on the track. I love it when people call certain things drivers races, if you like that sort of thing.

Chipped S4 makes what...450+ at the wheel?? That is a good 100whp over the M3?
How is the M3 ever going to keep up when it has no problems putting the power down even with the extra power?

Boosted E92s? I've seen boosted E46 at some 500rwhp with Cup tires at the hands of a PRO (and I mean current racing pro, not driving instructor pro) with my own eyes and as a passanger, and it is just all over the place despite the extra 200rwhp difference, wasn't much faster than my bone stock E46, well at least not 200rwhp faster.

Fact of the matter is, the S4 is a great car as is the M3, but its hard to beat AWD on the track, and its hard to beat traction with RWD especially when you're boosted.

Then again, its just my humble opinion and what i've seen at the track, not the local street races and magazines.

But in the end, my friend bought the B8 S4 and I bought the M3, and we've both made the right decision.

Bottom line, you seriously can't go wrong with either.
Dude just because some drivers suck isnt the cars fault and doesn't mean the car isn't capable of the mission. B8 S4's making 450whp? REALLY where never heard of that last I saw the MTM's B8 S4 still lost to a stock M3 that started in the wrong gear! even B7 RS4's barely make that much power with a supercharger. Your right an S4 is a great car much better then the B7 But it will probably never be a B5 in Performance. Either way its competition for a 335i not an M3 never has been never will be.And just because it has AWD doesn't mean its a track star either but hopefully it was better then My B7 S4 that thing understeered like no tomorrow even my pegleg 545i would kill that thing on the track. Dont even bring a boosted M3 vs a Modded B8 S4 either talk about a massacre. And whatever M3 you ran def wasn't making 200rwhp over you stock M3(not that day anyway) if you were less then 5 cars behind it thats for sure. Anyway tell ur buddy to bring out his B8 S4 with a 450whp and I'd love to make quick work of that.

I ran a B5 S4 which is still faster then basically all Audis in production when modded and I walked it before I even had an exhaust or a custom tune.
and this car was making 430whp on a dyno dynamics. I was only making 360whp at the time of the run.
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      12-04-2009, 10:38 PM   #86
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Dude just because some drivers suck isnt the cars fault and doesn't mean the car isn't capable of the mission. B8 S4's making 450whp? REALLY where never heard of that last I saw the MTM's B8 S4 still lost to a stock M3 that started in the wrong gear! even B7 RS4's barely make that much power with a supercharger. Your right an S4 is a great car much better then the B7 But it will probably never be a B5 in Performance. Either way its competition for a 335i not an M3 never has been never will be.And just because it has AWD doesn't mean its a track star either but hopefully it was better then My B7 S4 that thing understeered like no tomorrow even my pegleg 545i would kill that thing on the track. Dont even bring a boosted M3 vs a Modded B8 S4 either talk about a massacre. And whatever M3 you ran def wasn't making 200rwhp over you stock M3(not that day anyway) if you were less then 5 cars behind it thats for sure. Anyway tell ur buddy to bring out his B8 S4 with a 450whp and I'd love to make quick work of that.

I ran a B5 S4 which is still faster then basically all Audis in production when modded and I walked it before I even had an exhaust or a custom tune.
and this car was making 430whp on a dyno dynamics. I was only making 360whp at the time of the run.
Im talking about on the track, u seem to be talking about drag races..
I thought B8 S4 were suppose to make 450+?? Im only going from what I've heard...
if a modded S4 can't even beat a bone stock M3 then I guess forget it, I thought the B8 were suppose to be faster.
But I think u need to calm down, im starting to question your dick size, as to how quick you are to defend the almighty M3..
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      12-04-2009, 11:05 PM   #87
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Im talking about on the track, u seem to be talking about drag races..
I thought B8 S4 were suppose to make 450+?? Im only going from what I've heard...
if a modded S4 can't even beat a bone stock M3 then I guess forget it, I thought the B8 were suppose to be faster.
But I think u need to calm down, im starting to question your dick size, as to how quick you are to defend the almighty M3..


And I'm especially talking about the track either way, why are you worried about my dick size do you wanna play with it? I'm not on that side of the grass dude sorry. I fuck bitches only... But I guess thats why you call yourself fruitcake now go chase the rainbow
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      12-04-2009, 11:37 PM   #88
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And I'm especially talking about the track either way, why are you worried about my dick size do you wanna play with it? I'm not on that side of the grass dude sorry. I fuck bitches only... But I guess thats why you call yourself fruitcake now go chase the rainbow
Woof.
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