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      11-15-2009, 08:43 PM   #1
ideliver
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Redline motoroil in a M car?

We are all familiar with BMW's mantra to run Castrol 10W-60 TWS in the M cars. I have even had a stealer tell me that there is a "special additive" for these motors...

I use Redline for all of my non-M applications and have toed the party line for my M5 because of warranty concerns...but I just came across this...

http://www.redlineoil.com/news_article.aspx?id=13

Thoughts?

Name:  76_m.jpg
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This is NOT an engine that ran on Red Line motor oil. These photos are of a typical M54 engine, standard in E46 and E39 non-M cars from 1999 through 2005 that was filled with standard oil at the dealership. This nasty sludge can cause piston ring land carbon, oil feed clogging, drain back issues, deterioration and clogging of crankcase ventilation hoses and oil separators, and even VANOS issues.
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      11-15-2009, 10:53 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ideliver View Post
We are all familiar with BMW's mantra to run Castrol 10W-60 TWS in the M cars. I have even had a stealer tell me that there is a "special additive" for these motors...

I use Redline for all of my non-M applications and have toed the party line for my M5 because of warranty concerns...but I just came across this...

http://www.redlineoil.com/news_article.aspx?id=13

Thoughts?

Attachment 326310

This is NOT an engine that ran on Red Line motor oil. These photos are of a typical M54 engine, standard in E46 and E39 non-M cars from 1999 through 2005 that was filled with standard oil at the dealership. This nasty sludge can cause piston ring land carbon, oil feed clogging, drain back issues, deterioration and clogging of crankcase ventilation hoses and oil separators, and even VANOS issues.
Well...here is the only thought that matters unfortunately...

RED LINE OIL is not API approved.

No API approval = Instantly voided factory warranty if any internal engine related issues arise.

Now if you're past the warranty period, or you simply don't care about the factory warranty...knock yourself out.

Castrol 10w-60 TWS is (SAE) API SJ/CF approved, ACEA A3/B3 service class




Also...

The M54 engine reference is a poor example, as here's why:

That 3.0 liter straight-six engine used a 5w-30 motor oil, where as the S65B40 E9x M3 engine uses a Group IV / Group V PAO/Ester-based Full-synthetic engine oil. The Castrol 10w-60 TWS, was developed by Casrol & BMW MOTORSPORT in a joint engineering and testing partnership.

TWS is the same full-synthetic racing oil chemistry that is used by BMW MOTORSPORT in their unrestricted race-prepped endurance engines.



The BMW Group recommends Castrol TWS in their service manuals, driver handbooks, marketing communications, as well as on the vehicles' engine cover.


It simply doesn't get any better than that...


And here's the most important point...

The RED LINE 10w-60 won't be much cheaper per quart than the Castrol TWS from the dealership anyway.

BTW: This oil has been for sale for a long time in Asia where Castrol TWS is hard to find.

Bottom Line: It's just not worth the risk IMO.
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      11-17-2009, 11:56 AM   #3
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Yup...I work for Castrol...and we did indeed work on the engines with BMW. When I got my M3 I asked one of the technology guys if I really needed the 10w60...

His reply?

"Do you think we do all this work for fun?"
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      11-19-2009, 11:57 PM   #4
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I question 10W/60, especially in cold climates, but with BMW paying for maintenance, I wouldn't mess with a different oil to keep my warranty intact. Thankfully I live in TX, where I'm not worried about a 10 weight oil when it barely freezes here, and 60 is not that outrageous at 100+ for months.

The only question I'd like answered is why the S54 first came out with 5/40 oil, then switched to 10/60 when oil consumption (and bearing failures) started surfacing. Seemed like a band-aid to me, but at least the S65 was apparently designed with it in mind. I just don't understand why that thick of an oil when other equally high-strung engines (GT3) runs on 5/40. A thick oil doesn't make sense with tight tolerances and high revs (flows slower), that's why I'm curious why that choice. Maybe our engine does not have that tight tolerances after all ?

Haven't read about any non-modified engine failure even at 50K miles (a member on another board just hit that mark), so I'm not one bit worried about the oil, but it's strange to be the ONLY engine to require it.
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      11-20-2009, 01:20 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elp_jc View Post
...
The only question I'd like answered is why the S54 first came out with 5/40 oil, then switched to 10/60 when oil consumption (and bearing failures) started surfacing. Seemed like a band-aid to me, but at least the S65 was apparently designed with it in mind.
.
I wasn't aware of that. I had an '02 M3 and it always had 10W60 in it. The only mention of anything else in the manual was for topping off between oil changes. I am pretty sure that the S54 bearing failures came after the BMW recommendation for the Castrol TWS. Whatever.

The only problem I have is the long periods between oil changes. I would get an oil change ever 5 - 7K (between the "scheduled" changes) even if I have to pay for it myself (and it is not your standard $20 jiffy-lube job, more like $80 just in the price of the oil).
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      11-21-2009, 10:36 PM   #6
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I wasn't aware of that. I had an '02 M3 and it always had 10W60 in it.
I was told that by an actual owner that 10/60 was spec'ed mainly to mitigate oil consumption, but also for the bearing issue. Based on your input, that might not be correct, and since I was never interested on a 6-cyl M3, never bothered to research the issue myself. I'd be nice to know what was spec'ed at the beginning of the S54's life, when 10/60 was first spec'ed, and with which oil the oil consumption and bearing issues took place. Wrong board, but if somebody knows it'd be nice to set the record straight .

What I want to know is why 10/60 when all other street cars I know about use 5/40 at the most. The logic behind thinner oils is it's better to pump oil faster than slower, and it makes sense. Thinner oil requires tighter tolerances as well. So what's the story with the S65 requiring a honey-like 10/60 ?
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      11-22-2009, 06:28 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elp_jc View Post
I was told that by an actual owner that 10/60 was spec'ed mainly to mitigate oil consumption, but also for the bearing issue. Based on your input, that might not be correct, and since I was never interested on a 6-cyl M3, never bothered to research the issue myself. I'd be nice to know what was spec'ed at the beginning of the S54's life, when 10/60 was first spec'ed, and with which oil the oil consumption and bearing issues took place. Wrong board, but if somebody knows it'd be nice to set the record straight .

What I want to know is why 10/60 when all other street cars I know about use 5/40 at the most. The logic behind thinner oils is it's better to pump oil faster than slower, and it makes sense. Thinner oil requires tighter tolerances as well. So what's the story with the S65 requiring a honey-like 10/60 ?
The E46M3 with the S54 originally arrived in North America with BMW 5w-30 oil in it. BMW started having bearing problems and switched to the 10w-60 oil, but in the end there was never a correlation between oil viscosity and failures. The failures were manufacturing defects, pure and simple. The viscosity change was permanent however, regardless of whether it was necessary.

As for the viscosity difference, think of it this way - the difference between BMW 5w-30 and TWS 10w-60 in a warmed-up engine is about 15 degrees celsius. TWS shears down to a 50 weight after a few hundred miles of use and stays there. At 115 degrees Celsius, TWS has the same viscosity as 5w-30 at 100 degrees celsius.

That's the oil temperature difference between driving to work and roaring down a straight at full throttle. A regular engine in commuting service sees the same viscosity as an M engine on a track at full power.
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