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      11-17-2009, 01:56 PM   #23
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The Shelby GT500 is a completely different animal compared to the M3. I just sold my GT500 and put in a order for an Alpine white 2010 BMW M3 Coupe.

I had a tremendous amount of upgrades for my GT500. I actually put down 712RWHP and 622 RWTQ with a Kenne Bell SC. There was no car that could catch me once going. I smoked Porsches, Vettes, BMW's, Audi's just to name a few. Top speed by a friend of mine after governor removed was 205 mph on the Autobahn. Traction was obviously an issue. :-)

The reason I switched was that after awhile the noise, vibrations, horrible weight distribution, crappy suspension setup etc, I had enough. It did not feel like the car worked as a unit but instead as a combination of different performance parts. There was no harmony there.

I actually learned that I enjoyed road racing far more than drag racing. After attending the 2009 Nurburgring 24h I knew why.

The only thing I don't like about the M3 is the minimal performance gains you get with aftermarket upgrades. A tiny increase of 10hp here or 15 tq there will not make any difference compared to the other beasts out there.
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      11-17-2009, 03:34 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foosh View Post
In the Grand Sport Class in the Koni Challenge Series, the Ford Mustang and M3 are neck and neck in the Grand Sport class point standings. Forget the GT500, this is a regular Mustang GT, which is pretty even competition for the M3 on the track.

The cars are stock, with only safety modifications allowed. The series is aired on Speed TV.

http://admin.grand-am.com/assets/KoniMfgPoints10.pdf
The car in the Koni Challenge is the FR500C Mustang. It is far from a showroom stock GT. This is from the Ford Racing website:

The popularity of road racing at a grassroots level has soared in the last few years and to the Ford enthusiast few vehicles make better racecars than Mustangs. For those enthusiasts looking to take their first step into professional road racing, Ford Racing has your needs met with the new 2005 Mustang FR500C.
Ford Racing offers two ways to get a driver behind the wheel of a 2005 Grand Am Cup Mustang. The first solution is a turnkey racecar ready to be driven to victory. That's the Mustang FR500C. The second option is a number of race ready parts that are available to the private builder.
FR500C

* A turnkey ready to run steed! The Mustang FR500C features the following... Ford Racing designed body and roll cage. Seam welded, Grand Am spec cage, attachment points and enclosures specifically for racing.
* Ford Racing 5.0L "Cammer R50" engine. The heart of this purpose built machine mated to our unique Tremec T56transmission.
* Ford Racing brake and suspension upgrades
* Full safety equipment
* Add driver and look for victory lane
* Price: $125,000
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      11-18-2009, 01:00 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foosh View Post

The cars are stock, with only safety modifications allowed. The series is aired on Speed TV.

http://admin.grand-am.com/assets/KoniMfgPoints10.pdf
You obviously believe everything you read on the internet. I saw one of these in person and its far from stock. They had the hood up, the engine sits about 1 inch off the ground and is pushed back behind the wheels another 8 inches!! Talked to some of the tech guys the car does very well.
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      11-19-2009, 12:32 AM   #26
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That must be the understatement of the year. (I think you will be happy to know), M3 can gain anywhere between 40 - 60 wheel HP with bolt ons and tunes up to 400 wheel HP (480 ish crank HP). The exhaust alone gives 20 - 25 wheel HP from what I have seen. Then there are the stroker and supercharger option, which might be pricey, but still make it very fast.

Not close to your GT500, but still a far cry from 10 - 15 wheel HP.

Quote:
Originally Posted by V8M3Driver View Post
The only thing I don't like about the M3 is the minimal performance gains you get with aftermarket upgrades. A tiny increase of 10hp here or 15 tq there will not make any difference compared to the other beasts out there.
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      11-19-2009, 11:06 AM   #27
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      11-19-2009, 01:38 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 330CIZHP View Post
That must be the understatement of the year. (I think you will be happy to know), M3 can gain anywhere between 40 - 60 wheel HP with bolt ons and tunes up to 400 wheel HP (480 ish crank HP). The exhaust alone gives 20 - 25 wheel HP from what I have seen. Then there are the stroker and supercharger option, which might be pricey, but still make it very fast.

Not close to your GT500, but still a far cry from 10 - 15 wheel HP.
Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that it is impossible to make significant gains, I'm only saying that the normal upgrades I have seen gives you almost nothing for your money.

Just look at the Dinan website.

High Flow Intake for $850 = 8hp and 5tq

http://www.dinancars.com/store/produ...cat=818&page=1

High Flow Throttle Bodies for $2300 = 7hp and 5tq

http://www.dinancars.com/store/produ...cat=818&page=1

Free Flow Exhaust for $2300 = 6hp and 5tq

http://www.dinancars.com/store/produ...cat=818&page=1

The only thing they offer that will increase your HP and TQ significantly will be a whole new engine for about $23,000 which makes no sense at all.

I have not seen anything else yet so please let me know as I'm very new to the BMW scene. I know this is a very new M3 so it usually takes some time for the aftermarket scene to catch up.

Thanks...
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      11-19-2009, 03:19 PM   #29
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I would not put too much stock in just one source especially if it is Dinan. There are much better companies out there. Being a tuner, I am sure you know looking at real world examples is the best way.

For example, this fellow on this board gained 50 wheel HP from the mods he has listed before even the full tune (70 wheel HP with full tune, which makes it around 500 HP crank HP), which are only 4 or so (his baseline is very low compared to stock M3s, but he dyno'ed on a Mustang dyno, which is famous for reading very low and all his dynos were at the same place within a day of each other so all that matters is that it is an apples to apples comparison). You might want to read through the entire thread and might find it informative.

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=322545


Quote:
Originally Posted by V8M3Driver View Post
Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that it is impossible to make significant gains, I'm only saying that the normal upgrades I have seen gives you almost nothing for your money.

Just look at the Dinan website.

High Flow Intake for $850 = 8hp and 5tq

http://www.dinancars.com/store/produ...cat=818&page=1

High Flow Throttle Bodies for $2300 = 7hp and 5tq

http://www.dinancars.com/store/produ...cat=818&page=1

Free Flow Exhaust for $2300 = 6hp and 5tq

http://www.dinancars.com/store/produ...cat=818&page=1

The only thing they offer that will increase your HP and TQ significantly will be a whole new engine for about $23,000 which makes no sense at all.

I have not seen anything else yet so please let me know as I'm very new to the BMW scene. I know this is a very new M3 so it usually takes some time for the aftermarket scene to catch up.

Thanks...
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      11-19-2009, 04:15 PM   #30
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m3 is the better car overall IMO.
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      11-19-2009, 04:22 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 330CIZHP View Post
I would not put too much stock in just one source especially if it is Dinan. There are much better companies out there. Being a tuner, I am sure you know looking at real world examples is the best way.

For example, this fellow on this board gained 50 wheel HP from the mods he has listed before even the full tune (70 wheel HP with full tune, which makes it around 500 HP crank HP), which are only 4 or so (his baseline is very low compared to stock M3s, but he dyno'ed on a Mustang dyno, which is famous for reading very low and all his dynos were at the same place within a day of each other so all that matters is that it is an apples to apples comparison). You might want to read through the entire thread and might find it informative.

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=322545
I appreciate your input. I will read through the thread as it seems full of good info.

Thanks...
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      11-19-2009, 04:26 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by graider View Post
m3 is the better car overall IMO.
I agree with you. I did sell the Shelby because I feel the same way.

I'm just looking into ways of improving the already superb performance of the M3.

Thanks...
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      11-19-2009, 04:27 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 330CIZHP View Post
That must be the understatement of the year. (I think you will be happy to know), M3 can gain anywhere between 40 - 60 wheel HP with bolt ons and tunes up to 400 wheel HP (480 ish crank HP). The exhaust alone gives 20 - 25 wheel HP from what I have seen. Then there are the stroker and supercharger option, which might be pricey, but still make it very fast.

Not close to your GT500, but still a far cry from 10 - 15 wheel HP.
40-60 wheel hp, if correct, make the stroker look like a big waste of money since the Dinan stroker is said to have 520 hp at the crank. What are the trap speeds on cars with full bolt ons? What about the stroker?

Both of these cars are very different, one being a muscle car, the other being a more luxurious GT car. Take your pick. I have a friend who's got a GT500. He's more of a straight line power guy, but Id take the M3 due to the crisper handling.
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      11-19-2009, 04:48 PM   #34
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Yes, the gap is not that much. From what I understand, the stroker is far from maxed out at 520 HP. There is much more power to be had. It can easily put out a lot more power due to the increased displacement.

Another thing is that the stroker lengthens the stroke, which means less top-end focused car giving it a much thicker area in the midrange and low-end. You can see it in the torque figures, which are 427 ft-lbs of torque compared to a gain ~ 35 ft-lbs with bolt-ons and tune (which makes it around 330 - 335 ft-lbs crank and 500 HP) while both are much closer in HP numbers.

As you can see below, pencilgeek with his stroker M3 dyno'ed after tune around 446 wheel HP, which is a good 46 wheel HP more than a fully tuned bolt-on M3 (~ 400 wheel HP).

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showpos...6&postcount=55

Quote:
Originally Posted by GPRAbmw View Post
40-60 wheel hp, if correct, make the stroker look like a big waste of money since the Dinan stroker is said to have 520 hp at the crank. What are the trap speeds on cars with full bolt ons? What about the stroker?

Both of these cars are very different, one being a muscle car, the other being a more luxurious GT car. Take your pick. I have a friend who's got a GT500. He's more of a straight line power guy, but Id take the M3 due to the crisper handling.
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      11-19-2009, 04:51 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 330CIZHP View Post
Yes, the gap is not that much. From what I understand, the stroker is far from maxed out at 520 HP. There is much more power to be had. It can easily put out a lot more power due to the increased displacement.

Another thing is that the stroker lengthens the stroker, which means less top-end focused car giving it a much stronger midrange and low-end. You can see it in the torque figures, which are 427 ft-lbs of torque compared to a gain ~ 30 ft-lbs with bolt-ons and tune (which makes it around 330 - 335 ft-lbs crank) while both are much closer in HP numbers.

I believe pencilgeek with his stroker M3 dyno'ed after tune around 446 wheel HP, which is a good 46 wheel HP more than a fully tuned bolt-on M3 (~ 400 wheel HP).
Not bad, but the real test is to see what the trap speeds are. Im sure you know the trap speed is more indicitive of true power than a dyno, which can easily be manipulated.
I know the stroker lengthens the stroke making it a lower revving motor, giving way to the lower and mid range power, but I personally wouldnt want to kill the power at high revs.
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      11-19-2009, 04:58 PM   #36
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From what I read from these guys, the peak power gets moved down to 7500 - 7600 rpm and the torque curve is still very healthy up to 8000 rpm. From 8000 - 8400 rpm is where the stroker M3 torque curve might suffer the most due to the lower compression and lengthened stroke.

I think most full bolt-on and tune M3s trap around 117 - 118 mph. Not too sure about the stroker M3 since no tests have been done yet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GPRAbmw View Post
Not bad, but the real test is to see what the trap speeds are. Im sure you know the trap speed is more indicitive of true power than a dyno, which can easily be manipulated.
I know the stroker lengthens the stroke making it a lower revving motor, giving way to the lower and mid range power, but I personally wouldnt want to kill the power at high revs.
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      11-19-2009, 07:43 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 330CIZHP View Post
From what I read from these guys, the peak power gets moved down to 7500 - 7600 rpm and the torque curve is still very healthy up to 8000 rpm. From 8000 - 8400 rpm is where the stroker M3 torque curve might suffer the most due to the lower compression and lengthened stroke.

I think most full bolt-on and tune M3s trap around 117 - 118 mph. Not too sure about the stroker M3 since no tests have been done yet.
Thats exactly what I was figuring on. 117 or so was my estimate. Def not bad at all considering most owner driven m5/m6's only trap 113-114 bone stock.
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      11-20-2009, 01:06 AM   #38
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you forgot this one 23hp and 21 tq

http://www.dinancars.com/store/produ...cat=818&page=1

i have it and love it, my car rips now. i am sure nothing like your stang was but it helped

Quote:
Originally Posted by V8M3Driver View Post
Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that it is impossible to make significant gains, I'm only saying that the normal upgrades I have seen gives you almost nothing for your money.

Just look at the Dinan website.

High Flow Intake for $850 = 8hp and 5tq

http://www.dinancars.com/store/produ...cat=818&page=1

High Flow Throttle Bodies for $2300 = 7hp and 5tq

http://www.dinancars.com/store/produ...cat=818&page=1

Free Flow Exhaust for $2300 = 6hp and 5tq

http://www.dinancars.com/store/produ...cat=818&page=1

The only thing they offer that will increase your HP and TQ significantly will be a whole new engine for about $23,000 which makes no sense at all.

I have not seen anything else yet so please let me know as I'm very new to the BMW scene. I know this is a very new M3 so it usually takes some time for the aftermarket scene to catch up.

Thanks...
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      11-20-2009, 01:10 AM   #39
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do you know something for you to say there are much better companies out there?? have you ever owned any of there products??

i have had 3 Dinan cars and never had one problem with any of them and got great gains

i would love to hear what you have to say as to why there are much better companies out there

Quote:
Originally Posted by 330CIZHP View Post
I would not put too much stock in just one source especially if it is Dinan. There are much better companies out there. Being a tuner, I am sure you know looking at real world examples is the best way.

For example, this fellow on this board gained 50 wheel HP from the mods he has listed before even the full tune (70 wheel HP with full tune, which makes it around 500 HP crank HP), which are only 4 or so (his baseline is very low compared to stock M3s, but he dyno'ed on a Mustang dyno, which is famous for reading very low and all his dynos were at the same place within a day of each other so all that matters is that it is an apples to apples comparison). You might want to read through the entire thread and might find it informative.

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=322545
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      11-20-2009, 01:26 PM   #40
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What supercharger options are out there?
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      11-20-2009, 08:18 PM   #41
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not many but here are some i know of ESS, Gintani, G power.

ESS is the only one i know of with long term miles on it. Gpower had problems with there early ones and alot of them blew up. i believe they have it all sorted out now. Gintani just recently came out with theres i believe.

there is info on all 3 here if you search for some of the threads they will come up or contant the vendors here also

Stroker in my opinion is the more reliable route if you plan to keep the car long term but not as much power as a SC. there is potential for further power with the stroker though but obviously more money

good luck

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What supercharger options are out there?
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