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      11-12-2009, 03:54 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by Jonmartin View Post
Based on the last 60-130 times posted by PG at best the stroker cars will maybe hit 11.8's @ 120mph... And thats being pretty generous. I think the modified C63 will walk it easily if its anything thing like the Evosport widebody C63 it will get pretty nasty for the M3 in the straights

30k for 11.8's????? i was thinking at first it would be in the 10's for that money.

all this talk about dumping 20g's into an evo to make mad power, but putting 20g's into an evo will get you into (or very very close to) 9's. if you have to spend that much money to run an 11.8 @ 120, i'll run you against an evo 9 with stock turbo with the following mods:

cams/springs/retainers = 700
1000cc injectors = 340
walbro fuel pump = 80
intake, intercooler pipes = 600
diverter valve = 200
ported stock exhaust manifold = 100
stainless o2 housing = 100
turbo back exhaust = 300
3port boost controller = 75
intercooler = 600
tune on E85 = 300
labor for all the installs = 700
total = $4095

this will put you around 400whp on a mustang dyno (a 150whp increase over stock), and you'll be able to run mid 11's with it.

so essentially for the price of that one mod, i can go out and buy a slightly used evo 9, mod it, still win in a drag race (and very likely road course as well), still be able to go get the groceries with it, AND have an unmolested m3 to show off to the boss...
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      11-12-2009, 04:45 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by kevinD View Post
30k for 11.8's????? i was thinking at first it would be in the 10's for that money.

all this talk about dumping 20g's into an evo to make mad power, but putting 20g's into an evo will get you into (or very very close to) 9's. if you have to spend that much money to run an 11.8 @ 120, i'll run you against an evo 9 with stock turbo with the following mods:

cams/springs/retainers = 700
1000cc injectors = 340
walbro fuel pump = 80
intake, intercooler pipes = 600
diverter valve = 200
ported stock exhaust manifold = 100
stainless o2 housing = 100
turbo back exhaust = 300
3port boost controller = 75
intercooler = 600
tune on E85 = 300
labor for all the installs = 700
total = $4095

this will put you around 400whp on a mustang dyno (a 150whp increase over stock), and you'll be able to run mid 11's with it.

so essentially for the price of that one mod, i can go out and buy a slightly used evo 9, mod it, still win in a drag race (and very likely road course as well), still be able to go get the groceries with it, AND have an unmolested m3 to show off to the boss...
lay off the evo shit. We get it already. now GTFO lol

$300 turbo back exhaust??? Um please show me where unless this is southern backwoods home made straight pipe. Tune and Labor for 700??? what do you charge 20 bucks an hour lol???

Anyways on another thread I saw jon martin put down like 440hp at the wheels and caculated it to be almost 600 at the crank. Am I right jon? That actually sounds like the power band I would be looking for. Now that I think about it, a 500 hp stroker Ill be lucky to put down 400 at the wheels. I also saw niteriders video on another forum where he runs a GT2! Good lord.

Quick Question! Of all the Supercharger designs, I have been looking at the intake system. Im curious between the Gintani or the GPower which one is the quietest. Anyone know?
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      11-12-2009, 05:07 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by PencilGeek View Post
Did you actually read this thread? I feel like my IQ went down 50 points just reading that thread.

The OP didn't seem to notice that ESS was talking crank hp, and he was talking wheel hp. Then when somebody pointed it out, he said "yeah, but I have the SS exhaust which only adds hp, not subtracts it." WRONG! It's more common than you think to lose horsepower by adding an exhaust designed for a NA motor and slapping it onto a FI motor. I've personally witnessed motor dyno results where this happened. And like I said, it's much more common than you think.

Then later in the post, Chris tries to calculate drivetrain loss as 15% on a Dynojet. Chris calculates it all wrong. He takes the 451hp and multiplies it by 15% to calculate 67hp loss == 518hp; when the correct calculation is to divide 451hp by 0.85 == 531hp. Even the 15% loss is a mistake. A dynapack would show approximately 13%-17% loss because it's hub attached. On a Dynojet with wheels attached, it's more like 21% (according to the DynoDB). So taking 21%, the results would be 451 / 0.79 == 570hp (20 more hp than the kit claimed by ESS). Yet this guy is complaining, and nobody in the thread has been able to do the simple math and figure out that he's making more HP than he should.

The comments from AJ that the OP finds so offensive end up being proved out in the thread itself. AJ was making the point that not everybody with experience knows what their doing. And in my opinion, that entire thread proves his point.
Correct PG

This customers car made advertised power without having a beaseline dyno done. The fact is and we told him several times if he wants to discuss power made he needs to have a beseline because we have no idea what power his car made before the install was done. The customer was upset that his headers did not add 20-30 hp on top of our rated power which is something we could never guarantee to someone.

As far as anyone who questions our ability to supercharge BMW's correctly simply visit our website esstuning.com and look at the number of BMW's we make superchargers system for. With 14 years of proven expierence tuning and supercharging BMW's I would say we know a few things about how to properly build and tune kits Our current stage 2 E90 M3 supercharger only requires 5.5 psi to make 518 whp and our entry level stage 1 non IC kit makes 470 whp on 4.5 psi. You simply cannot make this kind of power on this low of boost unless you know how to design and tune supercharger systems properly.
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      11-12-2009, 05:40 PM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Optherion View Post

Anyways on another thread I saw jon martin put down like 440hp at the wheels and caculated it to be almost 600 at the crank. Am I right jon? That actually sounds like the power band I would be looking for. Now that I think about it, a 500 hp stroker Ill be lucky to put down 400 at the wheels.
I think Jon put down somewhere around 480 whp/ 585 crank HP. 440 whp is not 600 crank HP. More like 536 crank HP.

My RS46 put down 432 whp and 337 wtq on a Dynojet SAE corr. And the car the only had 2-3K miles on motor then. The dyno is here http://www.m3post.com/forums/attachm...2&d=1240247317 Not trying to convince you of anything, just correcting your statement.
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      11-12-2009, 06:31 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by Optherion View Post
lay off the evo shit. We get it already. now GTFO lol

$300 turbo back exhaust??? Um please show me where unless this is southern backwoods home made straight pipe. Tune and Labor for 700??? what do you charge 20 bucks an hour lol???

Anyways on another thread I saw jon martin put down like 440hp at the wheels and caculated it to be almost 600 at the crank. Am I right jon? That actually sounds like the power band I would be looking for. Now that I think about it, a 500 hp stroker Ill be lucky to put down 400 at the wheels. I also saw niteriders video on another forum where he runs a GT2! Good lord.

Quick Question! Of all the Supercharger designs, I have been looking at the intake system. Im curious between the Gintani or the GPower which one is the quietest. Anyone know?
sorry man, i just don't get why you would be so willing to throw so much money away on what amounts to only minor gains.

here is an 120 dollar exhaust for the evo (plus 80 for shipping) so iguess your right. its only 200
i've installed many of these exhausts, they are actually better then most of the high end crap. its a true 3" stainless steel mandrel bent exhaust that fits properly. i have one of the most expensive exhausts you can buy on my evo, and i've had to have all the hangers welded back on, the muffler welded back together, and i believe the internals of the muffler are falling apart.


actually my rates run out to be around 100 dollars an hour. installing cams takes 2 hours, the manifold and o2 housing stuff takes 2 hours, intercooler pipes, intake, and intercooler an hour, and exhaust about an hour. fuel pump and injectors are maybe 30 minutes. i can have it all done in one evening if you want so as a shop owner, i know your getting raped on price

funny thing is, the kit i bet has a common piston in it (wiseco, JE, mahle maybe) made to spec... which can be purchased for roughly 100-150 per piston. rods same thing. crank i would imagine is from another OEM BMW engine, but its possible they had one manufactured specifically for this.

but hey, i guess if your willing to spend 900 dollars on a dinan air filter which is the same as the AMSoil filter i use which was 50 dollars, i can see why you can justify 26k....
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      11-12-2009, 06:34 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by Rom3n View Post
As far as anyone who questions our ability to supercharge BMW's correctly simply visit our website esstuning.com and look at the number of BMW's we make superchargers system for. With 14 years of proven expierence tuning and supercharging BMW's I would say we know a few things about how to properly build and tune kits Our current stage 2 E90 M3 supercharger only requires 5.5 psi to make 518 whp and our entry level stage 1 non IC kit makes 470 whp on 4.5 psi. You simply cannot make this kind of power on this low of boost unless you know how to design and tune supercharger systems properly.
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      11-12-2009, 06:36 PM   #95
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KevinD,

This is off topic . The OP wants to know how to can get an M3 to 500hp, so he probably couldn't care less about how much it takes to get an Evo there. Stop trolling and add something constructive .
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      11-12-2009, 07:14 PM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rom3n View Post
Correct PG

This customers car made advertised power without having a beaseline dyno done. The fact is and we told him several times if he wants to discuss power made he needs to have a beseline because we have no idea what power his car made before the install was done. The customer was upset that his headers did not add 20-30 hp on top of our rated power which is something we could never guarantee to someone.

As far as anyone who questions our ability to supercharge BMW's correctly simply visit our website esstuning.com and look at the number of BMW's we make superchargers system for. With 14 years of proven expierence tuning and supercharging BMW's I would say we know a few things about how to properly build and tune kits Our current stage 2 E90 M3 supercharger only requires 5.5 psi to make 518 whp and our entry level stage 1 non IC kit makes 470 whp on 4.5 psi. You simply cannot make this kind of power on this low of boost unless you know how to design and tune supercharger systems properly.
I'm sure you do know how to tune you're cars but anyone can make the same power you did if they are running the same blower, it has to do with how efficient the blower is rather then the psi. 5.5psi from a small blower is alot different the 5.5psi from a larger blower.
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      11-12-2009, 07:33 PM   #97
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I wonder if HPF has any plans to develop a turbo for the new M? I'm sure they do down the line so maybe hold off a bit, I'm sure that'll be plenty of power for ya. they are currently doing R&D on the N54 engine..
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      11-12-2009, 07:52 PM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonmartin View Post
I'm sure you do know how to tune you're cars but anyone can make the same power you did if they are running the same blower, it has to do with how efficient the blower is rather then the psi. 5.5psi from a small blower is alot different the 5.5psi from a larger blower.

Do you really think that hardware design and tuning has nothing to do with how effecient a supercharger kit is ? You cant just slap a bunch of parts together make a generic tune and think that it does not matter because the kit you have will always make the same power as the next guy because you use the same blower and you run it at the same boost. If two different kits running the same blower at the same boost were compared head to head on the same fuel I guarantee the kit with superior tuning and hardware design will always make more power.
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      11-12-2009, 08:07 PM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rom3n View Post
Do you really think that hardware design and tuning has nothing to do with how effecient a supercharger kit is ? You cant just slap a bunch of parts together make a generic tune and think that it does not matter because the kit you have will always make the same power as the next guy because you use the same blower and you run it at the same boost. If two different kits running the same blower at the same boost were compared head to head on the same fuel I guarantee the kit with superior tuning and hardware design will always make more power.
Of course any decent tuner can tune a kit to be on par with your kit you're not exactly miracle workers. And of course hardware design is also important but unless the other company building it are complete morons I don't see that that being too hard I mean your kit isn't that complex design wise, you didn't exactly re-invent the wheel bud.
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      11-12-2009, 08:13 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by Jonmartin View Post
Of course any decent tuner can tune a kit to be on par with your kit you're not exactly miracle workers. And of course hardware design is also important but unless the other company building it are complete morons I don't see that that being too hard I mean your kit isn't that complex design wise, you didn't exactly re-invent the wheel bud.
If you say so Jon
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      11-12-2009, 08:29 PM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonmartin View Post
Of course any decent tuner can tune a kit to be on par with your kit you're not exactly miracle workers. And of course hardware design is also important but unless the other company building it are complete morons I don't see that that being too hard I mean your kit isn't that complex design wise, you didn't exactly re-invent the wheel bud.
G-Power must be full of morons then. They were negligent and incompetent by not testing their softwae as they should and therefore allowed 4 M3s to blow thier motors. But hey, any monkey can develop a S/C right Jon. What makes it worst it that G-Power has been in the business, what? 20 years or so? Blowing 4 custumer's car should not be taken lightly, especially when the product was first released. I bet it was a great feeling to have the car in a shop for 4 months...sorry not 4, it was 5 months.

I say all this because you act as if the issue you had with G-Power was cool, your attitude comes off as "it's cool, I paid $15k for the S/C, it blew my motor within 2 months, it took G-Power 4 months to fix it, but G-Power is great either way, yay!!!!!" That shit was not cool at all nor Do I wish anybody to go through such headaches. Yet you wanna bash and make assumptions on other S/C companies, such as design and tunning. Ironic, isn't?

Anybody can develop a S/C? G-Power couldn't. And the fact that they supposedly fixed it does not okay the 4 blown customer cars.
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      11-12-2009, 08:40 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by Jonmartin View Post
Of course any decent tuner can tune a kit to be on par with your kit you're not exactly miracle workers. And of course hardware design is also important but unless the other company building it are complete morons I don't see that that being too hard I mean your kit isn't that complex design wise, you didn't exactly re-invent the wheel bud.
Any decent tuner ? dont see it being that hard ? I wonder why experienced BMW tuners like AA and VF have yet to figure it out. And I wonder why if it is so easy to tune this car with FI G-Power blew motors in several M3's including yours ! The fact that you blew a motor with a supercharger installed on it from a "decent tuner" and you post comments like this make you look like an idiot, or you just have a very selective memory. Im sure you have more knowledge of how FI works on the E90 M3 then ESS does.
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      11-12-2009, 09:38 PM   #103
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Easy answer here Gintani SC kit...Im prob the only CUSTOMER to have 10,000+ miles on an SC kit and im still very and trust me I drive my car HARD!
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      11-12-2009, 09:50 PM   #104
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my only input is to do the following (and since im assuming u have money due to your cars, hope im not offending the op): spend the money on: exhaust prob full Akra cause u mentioned not being too loud, pulley, and a tune...will cost you 6-10k can get used equipment...and you max the car out without going FI or STROKER...see if its TORQUEY enough for you...then if you're happy your done. If not, then you can go with either of the other 2 options. It will save you money and you will get to enjoy the engine as it is just maxed out, and if its not good enough, then you took a minor loss.

Or just test drive all of the 3 options and make a decision, although test drives arent always enough to make a decision like that.

And Im not sure why everyone gets caught up in "im faster than you" or "what a waste of money" and between company bashing there is enough business for everyone to be happy, doesnt need to be a battle between all the companies, theres a market for everything. Same with the members in here...I would love a stroker motor as well, this is my first FI car, and i love it, pretty insane speeds, scares me and can only say the best about Gintani, highly recommend them, so helpful, feel like i have developed a new friendship. But that doesnt mean im gona talk shit on ESS, VF, RD, Dinan or G-Power ( although i would never recommend them, refering to G-power). FUCK! there a million fucking flavors of ice cream not every motherfucker has to like the same one! and be loyal to the one you like but dont talk shit for no reason.
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      11-12-2009, 09:55 PM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMD0977 View Post
G-Power must be full of morons then. They were negligent and incompetent by not testing their softwae as they should and therefore allowed 4 M3s to blow thier motors. But hey, any monkey can develop a S/C right Jon. What makes it worst it that G-Power has been in the business, what? 20 years or so? Blowing 4 custumer's car should not be taken lightly, especially when the product was first released. I bet it was a great feeling to have the car in a shop for 4 months...sorry not 4, it was 5 months.

I say all this because you act as if the issue you had with G-Power was cool, your attitude comes off as "it's cool, I paid $15k for the S/C, it blew my motor within 2 months, it took G-Power 4 months to fix it, but G-Power is great either way, yay!!!!!" That shit was not cool at all nor Do I wish anybody to go through such headaches. Yet you wanna bash and make assumptions on other S/C companies, such as design and tunning. Ironic, isn't?

Anybody can develop a S/C? G-Power couldn't. And the fact that they supposedly fixed it does not okay the 4 blown customer cars.
Exactly. Around here, it seems like everyone is brushing off the G-Power blown motors as no big deal. Seems really odd. Even if they took care of it, this is pretty unacceptable.

Imagine if BMW broke something and your car was out for a couple months.

I guess only time will tell with the reliability of the kits. In my opinion, even 10-20K miles with no problems on an SC is not a testament of its reliability. We need to see 30-40-50K cars before an accurate statement on reliability can be made.

Side note: Seems like AA and VF have been awfully quiet lately. I wonder what's going on in that camp.
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      11-12-2009, 10:03 PM   #106
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Easy answer here Gintani SC kit...Im prob the only CUSTOMER to have 10,000+ miles on an SC kit and im still very and trust me I drive my car HARD!
Man I saw your video on another forum racing what appeared to be a 997 GT2... holy shit...

So as it stands I have heard nothing but good things about the Gintani M3's. Am I right?

Gpower had some issues but are they worked out? If I don't have my car 4 months cause its blown, that will be upsetting, but most of these shops are 30 minutes away from me so I would be bugging the shit out of them every single day of the week.
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      11-12-2009, 10:04 PM   #107
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Exactly. Around here, it seems like everyone is brushing off the G-Power blown motors as no big deal. Seems really odd. Even if they took care of it, this is pretty unacceptable.

Imagine if BMW broke something and your car was out for a couple months.

I guess only time will tell with the reliability of the kits. In my opinion, even 10-20K miles with no problems on an SC is not a testament of its reliability. We need to see 30-40-50K cars before an accurate statement on reliability can be made.

.
They wanna act as if its nothing because now they are stuck with $15K G-Power S/C'er that they do not want to put back on their cars. One of them is selling his G-Power S/C, parting out his car, and his car is not even back running yet! But they highly recomemded it for everyone else And the dyno tightie posted on his for S/C sale thread is not even his! Its Technik's. Nothing personal tightie but thats dirty.
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      11-12-2009, 10:11 PM   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMD0977 View Post
G-Power must be full of morons then. They were negligent and incompetent by not testing their softwae as they should and therefore allowed 4 M3s to blow thier motors. But hey, any monkey can develop a S/C right Jon. What makes it worst it that G-Power has been in the business, what? 20 years or so? Blowing 4 custumer's car should not be taken lightly, especially when the product was first released. I bet it was a great feeling to have the car in a shop for 4 months...sorry not 4, it was 5 months.

I say all this because you act as if the issue you had with G-Power was cool, your attitude comes off as "it's cool, I paid $15k for the S/C, it blew my motor within 2 months, it took G-Power 4 months to fix it, but G-Power is great either way, yay!!!!!" That shit was not cool at all nor Do I wish anybody to go through such headaches. Yet you wanna bash and make assumptions on other S/C companies, such as design and tunning. Ironic, isn't?

Anybody can develop a S/C? G-Power couldn't. And the fact that they supposedly fixed it does not okay the 4 blown customer cars.
Thats G-power's problem not mine. Besides I said any decent tuner never said G-power had a good one thats why they are changing their tuner. I'm not assuming shit its history all the other companies have blown motors at some point its part of the game just do your research maybe not an S65 but at some point they have blow something. At least G-power backed it up (eventually) alot of the customers that had problems with the other companies usually got a boot in the ass.Also I don't see where I bashed any other companies either so check your self.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigpuna View Post
Any decent tuner ? dont see it being that hard ? I wonder why experienced BMW tuners like AA and VF have yet to figure it out. And I wonder why if it is so easy to tune this car with FI G-Power blew motors in several M3's including yours ! The fact that you blew a motor with a supercharger installed on it from a "decent tuner" and you post comments like this make you look like an idiot, or you just have a very selective memory. Im sure you have more knowledge of how FI works on the E90 M3 then ESS does.
AA / VF have had thier cars running for a while I have no idea why they haven't released it yet but like I said they've blown their share of motors so maybe they're being extra cautious especially after hearing a tuner like G-power blowing them I would be too. I never said its easy to tune the car I said any decent tuner that means someone with adequate knowlege in these thing not some half brain building their first kit. And G-power fucked up thats their problem I don't work for them so I don't care if you have problems with G-power oh well alot of people have problems have ESS maybe you should talk to them and help them figure out their problems instead of talking to me about it.

Also if ESS is so great where are their figures? I'm not talking about Dynos I'm talking actual 1/4 mile & 60-130 data, something usefull all they have are dyno sheets and pics yet they brag about having a bunch of their cars running their kits all over the place for like months in the arizona heat blah blah well then post something worth talking about up . I would have if my car kept working for sure but thats G-powers problem they gotta deal with that mess they created. Gintani has had their kit running on their development car but the owner is pretty busy and doesn't have alot of time to go to the track it was only 1 car up until last week when the 2nd one was done so expect their figures next week from Famoso. Is ESS gonna be there?? Any other FI companies ? Strokers ? I hope so, So we can see more then just pretty Dyno sheets.
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      11-12-2009, 10:12 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by sammyrusso View Post
my only input is to do the following (and since im assuming u have money due to your cars, hope im not offending the op): spend the money on: exhaust prob full Akra cause u mentioned not being too loud, pulley, and a tune...will cost you 6-10k can get used equipment...and you max the car out without going FI or STROKER...see if its TORQUEY enough for you...then if you're happy your done. If not, then you can go with either of the other 2 options. It will save you money and you will get to enjoy the engine as it is just maxed out, and if its not good enough, then you took a minor loss.

Or just test drive all of the 3 options and make a decision, although test drives arent always enough to make a decision like that.

And Im not sure why everyone gets caught up in "im faster than you" or "what a waste of money" and between company bashing there is enough business for everyone to be happy, doesnt need to be a battle between all the companies, theres a market for everything. Same with the members in here...I would love a stroker motor as well, this is my first FI car, and i love it, pretty insane speeds, scares me and can only say the best about Gintani, highly recommend them, so helpful, feel like i have developed a new friendship. But that doesnt mean im gona talk shit on ESS, VF, RD, Dinan or G-Power ( although i would never recommend them, refering to G-power). FUCK! there a million fucking flavors of ice cream not every motherfucker has to like the same one! and be loyal to the one you like but dont talk shit for no reason.
Thank you for the wise suggestions. These are the types I appreciate where they are related to your experiences. I might end up with your cars twin Sammy except it will be space gray haha. I sometimes commute back to Vegas and in the summer it can get 115 out there. Hows DCT holding up?

On the Gpower site they mention:

Modified DKG Controll
110.092.070D G-POWER BMW DCG Upgrade
With cars that are equipped with the optional BMW DCG (double clutch gearbox), the electronic control unite of the gearbox needs to be remapped, when a G-POWER supercharger system has been installed.
http://www.g-power.de/934.html?L=1&c...#Produkt_Start

Anyone have any clue about this?
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      11-12-2009, 10:24 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by JMD0977 View Post
They wanna act as if its nothing because now they are stuck with $15K G-Power S/C'er that they do not want to put back on their cars. One of them is selling his G-Power S/C, parting out his car, and his car is not even back running yet! But they highly recomemded it for everyone else And the dyno tightie posted on his for S/C sale thread is not even his! Its Technik's. Nothing personal tightie but thats dirty.
Uh my kit has been on the Technik car ever since my car blew. Maybe I should hurry and get it back to impress everyone. I haven't rushed to install it again because of scheduling problems and I'm not even sure I'll even keep the M3 much longer for it to even matter so what do you care if I put it back on my car or not. And obviously G-power changed the mapping and the kompressor from when I and josh had the kit on our cars so obviously he's going to post the latest dyno theres nothing "dirty" about that especially since its public knowledge to anyone who pays attention . Btw I'm not acting as if its nothing obviously whats done is done and its fixed what should I do cry and whine about it everyday even though its already fixed??
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