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      11-08-2009, 02:40 PM   #1
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Exclamation Spa Trackday: BIBLICAL FL brake failure (Glowing Disc!)

Today was a perfect day @ Spa with the BMW Circuit Club.

Normally it's always raining @ spa but not today, and it wasn't busy!

I fitted my M3 with Toyo R888 245/265 19''. And didn't expect much from the tires but i was really surprised. Nothing beats sliks. But they lasted...and you can save 'em by keeping the steering angle low. Power down was great. I recommend these tires.

As a precaution i fab-ed some brake ducts - DIY Here -, upgraded the brake system with carbon composite pads, new OEM discs and SRF oil.

Should be enough on a car you already payed 145.000 Euro's for...(in Holland, Taxes don't ask...)

After a nice mornin' of abusing my M3, shown here in this vid: (Coming Soon)


The brakes where going down and suddenly were gone...I missed the corner, but luckily there was some runoff. I pulled in to pitlane.
This is a photographic evidence and proof that: ' THE BRAKES ON THE BMW M3 SUCK!!!!! The are SHIT!...As a professional race car driver i give them a beating. But i recommend everybody to change the stock brakes to a BBK.

C 4 ur selfe! Again excuse my Iphone picas....
Name:  IMG_0114.jpg
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Yes that's right! A glowing super hot LF brake disk, Like on a F1, IRL and DTM car.

Name:  IMG_0119.JPG
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After a while i turned the discs with a screw driver. The glowing part is where the pads where.

Name:  IMG_0115.jpg
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Oeps....what's that abscess on the OEM brake line? That nice rubber non metallic OEM brake line looks burnt.!

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Does that caliper look well done?...it's burnt!

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I'm happy i postponed, painting the OEM brake calipers red till after the track day...

I let everything chill 4 a bit.

Then i wanted to take it apart.
Name:  IMG_0125.jpg
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You undo the caliper by loosening these 2 screws. The plastic cap are melted.

Upon disassembly the brake like BROKE OUT OF THE FITTING!
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Yes, i was lucky that didn't happen on track!

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The brake like was kooked out.

The 1 (one) and ONLY, piston in the caliper is F*kced!
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Pads could look worse...
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The are bent.
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A sad sight when everybody else with old BMW's with their wel designed brake are havin' fun on track!!
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The chain of event that led to these never seen before events are:

- BMW engineers design and fit the BMW with SHIT brake system.
- Customer that expects performance buy's a M3.
- Customer upgrades stock brake system to be ahead of the game.
- Customer drives the car on track, and it's ok for half a day.
- Brake pads wear.
- Heat get's to much for the !SINGLE! piston in the caliper.
- Rubbers burn piston get's stuck.
- Heat burns the pain the caliper.
- Brake line blisters.
- Brake disc glows up nice and red
- Brakes distroid
- Unhappy customer, spending even more money on his car that should have been fitted with proper brake in the first place.

I drove home in an E30 325 and my M3 was on the trailer.
Felt kinda strange leaving the track in somebody else's car with mine broken.


I'll be in Vegas for the 9th till the 16th of November. Anybody wanna do me an offer on a BBK? PM me.
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      11-08-2009, 02:58 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JuniorM3 View Post
Today was a perfect day @ Spa with the BMW Circuit Club.

Normally it's always raining @ spa but not today, and it wasn't busy!

I fitted my M3 with Toyo R888 245/265 19''. And didn't expect much from the tires but i was really surprised. Nothing beats sliks. But they lasted...and you can save 'em by keeping the steering angle low. Power down was great. I recommend these tires.

As a precaution i fab-ed some brake ducts - DIY Here -, upgraded the brake system with carbon composite pads, new OEM discs and SRF oil.

Should be enough on a car you already payed 145.000 Euro's for...(in Holland, Taxes don't ask...)

After a nice mornin' of abusing my M3, shown here in this vid: (Coming Soon)


The brakes where going down and suddenly were gone...I missed the corner, but luckily there was some runoff. I pulled in to pitlane.
This is a photographic evidence and proof that: ' THE BRAKES ON THE BMW M3 SUCK!!!!! The are SHIT!...As a professional race car driver i give them a beating. But i recommend everybody to change the stock brakes to a BBK.

C 4 ur selfe! Again excuse my Iphone picas....
Attachment 323861
Yes that's right! A glowing super hot LF brake disk, Like on a F1, IRL and DTM car.

Attachment 323866
After a while i turned the discs with a screw driver. The glowing part is where the pads where.

Attachment 323862
Oeps....what's that abscess on the OEM brake line? That nice rubber non metallic OEM brake line looks burnt.!

Attachment 323865
Attachment 323874
Does that caliper look well done?...it's burnt!

Attachment 323864
I'm happy i postponed, painting the OEM brake calipers red till after the track day...

I let everything chill 4 a bit.

Then i wanted to take it apart.
Attachment 323870
You undo the caliper by loosening these 2 screws. The plastic cap are melted.

Upon disassembly the brake like BROKE OUT OF THE FITTING!
Attachment 323867
Yes, i was lucky that didn't happen on track!

Attachment 323873
The brake like was kooked out.

The 1 (one) and ONLY, piston in the caliper is F*kced!
Attachment 323868

Pads could look worse...
Attachment 323869

The are bent.
Attachment 323876


A sad sight when everybody else with old BMW's with their wel designed brake are havin' fun on track!!
Attachment 323875


The chain of event that led to these never seen before events are:

- BMW engineers design and fit the BMW with SHIT brake system.
- Customer that expects performance buy's a M3.
- Customer upgrades stock brake system to be ahead of the game.
- Customer drives the car on track, and it's ok for half a day.
- Brake pads wear.
- Heat get's to much for the !SINGLE! piston in the caliper.
- Rubbers burn piston get's stuck.
- Heat burns the pain the caliper.
- Brake line blisters.
- Brake disc glows up nice and red
- Brakes distroid
- Unhappy customer, spending even more money on his car that should have been fitted with proper brake in the first place.

I drove home in an E30 325 and my M3 was on the trailer.
Felt kinda strange leaving the track in somebody else's car with mine broken.


I'll be in Vegas for the 9th till the 16th of November. Anybody wanna do me an offer on a BBK? PM me.
Slow down there buddy...

If you lean on any standard duty part for too long, it will buckle and/or break with sustained stress and heat.

Your results only prove that point.

It does not mean BMW designed a faulty brake system. If that was true, your results would be widely reported all over the world. And the last time I checked... that was not the case.

So please save your outrage for products more deserving of such ridicule. Thanks.
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      11-08-2009, 03:13 PM   #3
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That is nothing than brake abuse!
May I ask what laptimes you were doing in Spa - of course Spa is very demanding for the brakes, but this is heavy abuse of the brake system!
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      11-08-2009, 03:19 PM   #4
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Looks like it caught on fire.
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      11-08-2009, 03:25 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemans_Blue_M View Post
Slow down there buddy...

If you lean on any standard duty part for too long, it will buckle and/or break with sustained stress and heat.

Your results only prove that point.

It does not mean BMW designed a faulty brake system. If that was true, your results would be widely reported all over the world. And the last time I checked... that was not the case.

So please save your outrage for products more deserving of such ridicule. Thanks.


Ageed. If OP is indeed a pro driver, he is capable of stressing the parts to the max! I think most of us that do HPDE's won't encounter that. The criticism is prolly onfounded for 99% of us, but it is interested to see nontheless.
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      11-08-2009, 03:26 PM   #6
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Geez you need to learn how to use the brakes that you have on the car.The stock brakes are not that bad and I can say this with a fair bit of experiance.What I see in your photos is big time abuse of the street system that comes on a M3.
I have done 11 track days with orginial rotors & usually been one of the fastest street cars out there and my only mod is Hawk HP+ pads.I have not been suprised by my brakes once ontrack and I do use my brakes quite hard.Overusing the brakes like you have is asking for a big off when a total failure happens.I think the problem is driver abuse not a fault of the limitations of the standard brake system.
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      11-08-2009, 03:30 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemans_Blue_M View Post
Slow down there buddy...

If you lean on any standard duty part for too long, it will buckle and/or break with sustained stress and heat.

Your results only prove that point.

It does not mean BMW designed a faulty brake system. If that was true, your results would be widely reported all over the world. And the last time I checked... that was not the case.

So please save your outrage for products more deserving of such ridicule. Thanks.
Standard parts?....
Race pads and brake cooling installed + SRF Oil!

The LF pads are still fine they have 4mm on 'em.
So i didn't use up all of my brake lining...

On any other High performance car like the Merc or the Audi you get 6 Piston calipers. And some cool air in the wheel arch. Then they don't fail!

Don't act like the BMW M3 brakes are just fine and perform well!

The failing brakes on the M3 ARE 'widely reported all over the world'!
Autospies
http://johncunningham.com/2009/why-t...-track-worthy/
Almost every car show or magazine that tests the new M3 talks about the fading.
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      11-08-2009, 03:34 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gearhead999s View Post
Geez you need to learn how to use the brakes that you have on the car.The stock brakes are not that bad and I can say this with a fair bit of experiance.What I see in your photos is big time abuse of the street system that comes on a M3.
I have done 11 track days with orginial rotors & usually been one of the fastest street cars out there and my only mod is Hawk HP+ pads.I have not been suprised by my brakes once ontrack and I do use my brakes quite hard.Overusing the brakes like you have is asking for a big off when a total failure happens.I think the problem is driver abuse not a fault of the limitations of the standard brake system.
+1, like I said before! It is not normal for a PRO to come into the pit lane without giving the brakes a cool down period before (evidenced by red rotors)!!! That is just poor driving style - sorry to say, but itīs the truth!!!
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      11-08-2009, 03:37 PM   #9
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[quote=J

On any other High performance car like the Merc or the Audi you get 6 Piston calipers. And some cool air in the wheel arch. Then they don't fail!

Don't act like the BMW M3 brakes are just fine and perform well!

.[/QUOTE]

I have witnessed many stock cars with 6 pistons calpers that have had brake problems just like you had.Their drivers also overused the brakes to what they were designed to handle.The only stock cars that can brake at 100% capabilities every corner,every lap are Porsches with the ceramic brake option and they are a $12000 option over an already great brake system.
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      11-08-2009, 03:39 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gearhead999s View Post
Geez you need to learn how to use the brakes that you have on the car.The stock brakes are not that bad and I can say this with a fair bit of experiance.What I see in your photos is big time abuse of the street system that comes on a M3.
I have done 11 track days with orginial rotors & usually been one of the fastest street cars out there and my only mod is Hawk HP+ pads.I have not been suprised by my brakes once ontrack and I do use my brakes quite hard.Overusing the brakes like you have is asking for a big off when a total failure happens.I think the problem is driver abuse not a fault of the limitations of the standard brake system.

+1
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      11-08-2009, 03:41 PM   #11
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+1, like I said before! It is not normal for a PRO to come into the pit lane without giving the brakes a cool down period before (evidenced by red rotors)!!! That is just poor driving style - sorry to say, but itīs the truth!!!
Dude...the piston gut stuck! Because of the heat and stress.
I cooled down for half a lap. Can't imagine how it must have looked on track!
Hope somebody took pictures.

Check this link, I'm the guy on the top spot of the podium. You can see just how poor my drivin' style is.

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      11-08-2009, 03:49 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JuniorM3 View Post
Standard parts?....
Race pads and brake cooling installed + SRF Oil!

The LF pads are still fine they have 4mm on 'em.
So i didn't use up all of my brake lining...

On any other High performance car like the Merc or the Audi you get 6 Piston calipers. And some cool air in the wheel arch. Then they don't fail!

Don't act like the BMW M3 brakes are just fine and perform well!

The failing brakes on the M3 ARE 'widely reported all over the world'!
Autospies
http://johncunningham.com/2009/why-t...-track-worthy/
Almost every car show or magazine that tests the new M3 talks about the fading.
Dude,

You abused the stock braking system past the point of no return.

Oh, and by the way...'cool air into the wheel arches' wouldn't have helped you in this situation...

Unless you direct that cool air into the center of the brake rotor disc (via backing plates), it won't cool the rotor down to prevent overheating.

BTW: You actually spent time making improvements...and you didn't upgrade the softer OE rubber brake lines with Sainless Steel units?

The 'problem' as I see it...is the person sitting in the drivers seat.
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      11-08-2009, 03:51 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JuniorM3 View Post
Dude...the piston gut stuck! Because of the heat and stress.
I cooled down for half a lap. Can't imagine how it must have looked on track!
Hope somebody took pictures.

Check this link, I'm the guy on the top spot of the podium. You can see just how poor my drivin' style is.

Unfortunatly you are showing what a lot of modern race drivers do not have,mechanical sympathy!I have had co-drivers that were very fast in North American open wheel pro-series that had no clue about saving tires & brakes in a heavier sedan.We spent a lot of time educating these drivers so we were not in the pits changing brakes & tires long before we needed.If you play or race in any heavier car,you need to learn this skill or stick to the light open wheel stuff.
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      11-08-2009, 03:56 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gearhead999s View Post
Geez you need to learn how to use the brakes that you have on the car.The stock brakes are not that bad and I can say this with a fair bit of experiance.What I see in your photos is big time abuse of the street system that comes on a M3.
I have done 11 track days with orginial rotors & usually been one of the fastest street cars out there and my only mod is Hawk HP+ pads.I have not been suprised by my brakes once ontrack and I do use my brakes quite hard.Overusing the brakes like you have is asking for a big off when a total failure happens.I think the problem is driver abuse not a fault of the limitations of the standard brake system.
Wait 'til you get fast, and then you'll start having the same problems. Simple as that.
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      11-08-2009, 03:58 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
Wait 'til you get fast, and then you'll start having the same problems. Simple as that.
How many championships have you won?
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      11-08-2009, 03:59 PM   #16
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OP, how long were you on the track? I can't imagine this happened with a 30 minute session???
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Let me get this straight... You are swapping out parts designed by some of the top engineers in the world because some guys sponsored by a company told you it's "better??" But when you ask the same guy about tracking, "oh no, I have a kid now" or "I just detailed my car." or "i just got new tires."
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      11-08-2009, 04:01 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gearhead999s View Post
Unfortunatly you are showing what a lot of modern race drivers do not have,mechanical sympathy!I have had co-drivers that were very fast in North American open wheel pro-series that had no clue about saving tires & brakes in a heavier sedan.We spent a lot of time educating these drivers so we were not in the pits changing brakes & tires long before we needed.If you play or race in any heavier car,you need to learn this skill or stick to the light open wheel stuff.
No sorry doesn't apply to me, I'm a mechanic my self. I teach and coach drivers, I own my own Championship winning race team. And engineer my own car. And i won championships in touring cars.
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      11-08-2009, 04:03 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aus View Post
OP, how long were you on the track? I can't imagine this happened with a 30 minute session???
6 laps, with passenger. So around 15 min. On track.
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      11-08-2009, 04:04 PM   #19
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If the OP is who he says he is, I can see how this happened. Get a GT3 dude!
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      11-08-2009, 04:07 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemans_Blue_M View Post

Unless you direct that cool air into the center of the brake rotor disc (via backing plates), it won't cool the rotor down to prevent overheating.

BTW: You actually spent time making improvements...and you didn't upgrade the softer OE rubber brake lines with Sainless Steel units?
Brake cooling?....Like on my car? -> DIY Link <-

I ordered the stainless steel lines, they weren't in yet. But Sainless lines wouldn't have saved my day..
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      11-08-2009, 04:08 PM   #21
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Still waiting for your laptime?!

Quote:
Originally Posted by JuniorM3 View Post
Dude...the piston gut stuck! Because of the heat and stress.
I cooled down for half a lap. Can't imagine how it must have looked on track!
Hope somebody took pictures.

Check this link, I'm the guy on the top spot of the podium. You can see just how poor my drivin' style is.

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      11-08-2009, 04:12 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JuniorM3 View Post
Brake cooling?....Like on my car? -> DIY Link <-

I ordered the stainless steel lines, they weren't in yet. But Sainless lines wouldn't have saved my day..
I voiced this concern in your DIY thread, so I'll follow up on it as I am curious: did the ducting stay where it was supposed to stay at the right orientation? Even then, it is not clear how effective it will be without the backing plates as the stock plates will most likely block most of the flow. Plus, the stock rotors have not been designed for forced cooling.

Too many hot laps with a 4000lb car does this kind of thing to the brakes I guess. I did end up in the gravel at Watkins Glen despite the upgrades (not that I am a pro driver or anything), and learned this the hard way. Race pads were smoking and fell apart at the paddock.

If you were to say that you have not experienced this issue on another 400hp+ 3700lb+ car (which sells for $60k) when you drove it the same way you drove the M3, then we can blame it on BMW engineering.
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