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      11-07-2009, 03:36 PM   #727
swamp2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
Thanks for taking the time to run the numbers but did you run it with the right weight because the figure is based on DIN and you need to add 75kg.
I think I got it right (or at least within 10 kg). CarTest as seperate entries for the car weight and driver weight. So I basically use DIN in the vehicle weight dialog box.
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      11-07-2009, 04:06 PM   #728
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Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
I think I got it right (or at least within 10 kg). CarTest as seperate entries for the car weight and driver weight. So I basically use DIN in the vehicle weight dialog box.
I wasn't meaning anything by it, only that I felt your figures were a little optimistic. But then I remembered that you were probably using the customary 1ft roll-on that is traditional American magazine testing rules.

When you add the 0.3s for roll-on and comparing these readjusted figures to that of what the GT3 does then it makes them much more believable. The M3 GTS will reach 60mph in 4.1s, that's the same as the GT3 does to the 62.5mph mark which is expected given that it's lighter and has superior traction.

It's will compare well to the GT3 but ultimately it will always come off second best, and that's no big deal because the Porsche is and will be always be the more expensive car. In the real world with better than average driving skills I reckon the BMW will be the quicker on track but in a truly gifted driver's hands the Porsche will be king.
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      11-07-2009, 08:44 PM   #729
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Dealer already has 3 deposits.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gearhead999s View Post
I would expect to be paying 50% more than a normal E92 M3 which would about $125000 in CDN $'s.If the car does become available in Canada,my dealer will have an order the same day.The only other cars that are in the same league IMO are the GT3 & GT3rs which equipped the way that I would order would start at over $155000 to $190000 for an RS.
I will order the 2 seat version with air & some sort of sound system and as it probally wont come with the roll bar in North America.It will not be a daily driver but will be driven to the trackdays and used for the odd local jount for those special drives that we all like.
At this price level it would be justified in my mind as I am not a big fan of modding in the aftermarket as you never acheive what a bunch of talented engineers can do in the proper corporate atmosphere.My present M3 is the best everyday car that I have had but is not hard core enough for the track days that I enjoy so much and do know to fix this comprimise,comes at quite a cost.
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      11-07-2009, 08:53 PM   #730
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Originally Posted by turb934 View Post
Dealer already has 3 deposits.
Are you one of them Gary?
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      11-08-2009, 02:03 AM   #731
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
I wasn't meaning anything by it, only that I felt your figures were a little optimistic. But then I remembered that you were probably using the customary 1ft roll-on that is traditional American magazine testing rules.

When you add the 0.3s for roll-on and comparing these readjusted figures to that of what the GT3 does then it makes them much more believable. The M3 GTS will reach 60mph in 4.1s, that's the same as the GT3 does to the 62.5mph mark which is expected given that it's lighter and has superior traction.
Indeed you got it, American forum, I'm American and I'm using American standards. And yes the 0.3 seconds differece is just about right to 60 to compensate for the 1 foot roll out.
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      11-08-2009, 05:24 AM   #732
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Indeed you got it, American forum, I'm American and I'm using American standards. And yes the 0.3 seconds differece is just about right to 60 to compensate for the 1 foot roll out.
I'm not sure if I like this attitude.


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      11-08-2009, 06:25 AM   #733
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Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Indeed you got it, American forum, I'm American and I'm using American standards. And yes the 0.3 seconds differece is just about right to 60 to compensate for the 1 foot roll out.
Swamp, I know you are American but I didn't mean anything personal by my comment, only that when anything is on the Internet it not longer has a nationality because it's worldwide and in the rest of the world roll-out isn't the standardized way of testing so I simply forgot you would have used it and that was why I questioned whether you had used the correct weight in your calculations. I only mentioned the roll-out as acknowledgement that you had done your working out correctly.

What is it with everyone becoming so defensive.
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      11-08-2009, 07:26 AM   #734
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Yes

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Originally Posted by Gearhead999s View Post
Are you one of them Gary?
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      11-08-2009, 08:36 AM   #735
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Yes
I guess I am making a call on Monday!
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      11-08-2009, 08:53 AM   #736
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Originally Posted by Gearhead999s View Post
I guess I am making a call on Monday!
That's fine that you guys are 'hedging your bets'...just in case it comes to the Canadian market. (a longshot, but more likely than the USA)

But be advised that dealers will take a deposit on ham sandwich, or an as-yet-to-be-named BMW hovercraft.

It doesn't really MEAN anything.

In other words, don't read too much into that...
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      11-08-2009, 09:04 AM   #737
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Originally Posted by Lemans_Blue_M View Post
That's fine that you guys are 'hedging your bets'...just in case it comes to the Canadian market. (a longshot, but more likely than the USA)

But be advised that dealers will take a deposit on ham sandwich, or an as-yet-to-be-named BMW hovercraft.

It doesn't really MEAN anything.

In other words, don't read too much into that...
I ordered my present E92 M3 14 months before I received the car.Same story with my wifes E93.When I ordered my 01 Z06 in 2000,I furnished the order codes to my dealer before he had knowlege of the car and had one of the very first in Canada.I have played this game more than a few times.
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      11-08-2009, 09:11 AM   #738
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i think tossability is directly related to mass/weight
i was at the BMW performance driving school for the 1 day M school i got with my car a few weeks ago
and i felt a huge difference between the M5/M6 and the M3
the M3 felt tossable
the whole time i am diving the M5 i felt like there was all this mass with me
when you flick the steering wheel you sense there is all this weight shifting from side to side on the M5
and i know my M3 E30 felt a lot more tossable than the E93 M3
but i think the price you pay for modern cars is better safety, more equipment, and less tossability
i know the next M 1 series is def on my shopping list after my E92 M3
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      11-08-2009, 09:34 AM   #739
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gearhead999s View Post
I ordered my present E92 M3 14 months before I received the car.Same story with my wifes E93.When I ordered my 01 Z06 in 2000,I furnished the order codes to my dealer before he had knowlege of the car and had one of the very first in Canada.I have played this game more than a few times.
Well, as you already know, all those other cars were pre-approved and scheduled to be sold in Canada anyway.

Those models are ALL regular production cars...while this vehicle is a very limited-edition vehicle that has not been approved for sale in your country.

In fact, there is no indication that will ever be sold there at all.

This an entirely different situation...

I've had three BMW Individual exterior color requests denied by BMWNA, on a production car already for sale in the United States. (with a deposit down payment on each)

Never got any of those Individual cars, and that was just due to the exterior paint.

Again, dealers will accept a deposit on anything under the sun. It does not represent proof of anything.
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      11-08-2009, 09:39 AM   #740
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemans_Blue_M View Post
Well, as you already know, all those other cars were pre-approved and scheduled to be sold in Canada anyway.

Those models are ALL regular production cars...while this vehicle is a very limited-edition vehicle that has not been approved for sale in your country.

In fact, there is no indication that will ever be sold there at all.

This an entirely different situation...

I've had three BMW Individual exterior color requests denied by BMWNA, on a production car already for sale in the United States. (with a deposit down payment on each)

Never got any of those Individual cars, and that was just due to the exterior paint.

Again, dealers will accept a deposit on anything under the sun. It does not represent proof of anything.
You are asuming that I actually supply a deposit.
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      11-08-2009, 10:32 AM   #741
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Can you define "tossable", I mean really define it.
I cannot - at least, no better than has already been done in subsequent posts in this string. The apparent willingness to change direction is the obvious answer, but to quantify it? The best I can come up with is that recent in-depth Motor Trend article that combined seat-of-the-pants evaluations with a number of carefully measured numeric parameters.

Weight and wheelbase are obvious parameters, so a Corolla is more tossable than a Camry - but of course both those cars suck in this type of evaluation. Polar moments are of course also critical, so classic Audi designs mean less tossability.

Etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Cars are strange most sports cars, and sports sedans and the like keep getting heavier more powerful and more grippy, hence faster at the track. Does "tossable" translate to or correlate well with any true performance metric? You can see where I am getting the statements above seem to be a bit contradictory.
My belief is that tossable is more a street thing done at eight tenths or less, rather than a track thing. - and in the track case we really are tossing the car, as in somewhat sideways. There are very few corners on track where tossing the car at ten tenths is the fast way around. Turn three at NHMS might be an exception for some cars. It's a 180 degree right-hander with a sudden transition to a steep grade about halfway through. Any throwaway corner leading to an important corner would be another.

Bruce

PS - Tossing FWD cars at the track is a bit more of a standard procedure, because they're so typically reluctant to rotate properly.

Last edited by bruce.augenstein@comcast.; 11-08-2009 at 10:55 AM.
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      11-08-2009, 10:50 AM   #742
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Is BMW planning to bring the GTS to the US?

Of course not...right?

Today I received a very interesting call from a marketing research firm -- specifically calling about the BMW M3. Normally I would hang up on these folks, but this one seemed a little too coincidental with the introduction of the M3 GTS, so I decided to participate in the 45 minute survey!

I'd say at least 20-30% of all the questions could be construed as guaging public interest in bringing the M3 GTS to the US (even though it was never mentioned by name).
  • Do you track your car?
  • How important is it to track your car?
  • Would you like better brakes?
  • Is a luxurious interior important to you?
  • How important is a luxurious interior to you?
  • How important is it remove VMax?
  • Would you like adjustable aerodynamics in an M3?
Granted, these are only a small sampling of the questions. But just look at that list above. Do you want adjustable aerodymics in an M3? Do you want better brakes? Is important to you to be able to track your car? Do you want VMax removed?...
At a complete guess, these questions could equally apply to the oft-rumored "competition" model or package for the current car. I personally believe that scenario has a better chance of coming to fruition for the U.S. than the race car.

Bruce
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      11-08-2009, 12:17 PM   #743
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Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
Turn three at NHMS might be an exception for some cars. It's a 180 degree right-hander with a sudden transition to a steep grade about halfway through.
You and I have discussed the "tossability" criteria a bit in another thread, and yes the above turn you mention is spot on. That is one of the few turns in the 7-8 tracks I've driven on that I feel the need to really throw the car in there and kick the tail out intentionally to rotate and set it up, so I fully agree with you about how and if this criteria becomes an issue on the track. Even then the E92 M3 does surprisingly well compared to the E30 M3--you just have to fight it more than the E30.

However, I still do not get why this criteria would matter all that much on the street. I don't really care if a Corolla changes direction all that much faster than a Camry (or my Expedition) as I go about doing my daily driving, but maybe that's just me. Actually, that is one of the reasons I am considering selling my E92 now that I own a track car and don't plan to drive the E92 on the track all that much. I don't really know what to do with it during my daily commute. It sure is a nice car to have and appreciate, but I might put the money to better use in rebuilding my E30 and paying for the house I just bought.
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      11-08-2009, 01:43 PM   #744
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South, foot, don't get me wrong I am neither the least bit xenophobic nor nationalistic. Not one iota. Quite the oppostite in fact! All I meant was that the forum is based in the US, uses English and has a majority of American members. I greatly appreciate the diversity of folks and nationalities that choose to participate in this forum. Sorry if my comments sounded contrary to this. Cheers.
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      11-08-2009, 01:44 PM   #745
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...However, I still do not get why this criteria would matter all that much on the street. I don't really care if a Corolla changes direction all that much faster than a Camry (or my Expedition) as I go about doing my daily driving, but maybe that's just me. Actually, that is one of the reasons I am considering selling my E92 now that I own a track car and don't plan to drive the E92 on the track all that much. I don't really know what to do with it during my daily commute. It sure is a nice car to have and appreciate, but I might put the money to better use in rebuilding my E30 and paying for the house I just bought.
Sorry for my somewhat murky note.

What I was trying to convey in regard to the term "tossable" on the street bears no relation to actually tossing a car at the track.

I was really referring to the how willing the car is to turn in and negotiate a corner at not more than eight tenths. Take a Cayman out on your favorite set of twisties, and compare it to your M3. Because of weight and polar moments, the Cayman will feel more willing to telepathically negotiate the twisty bits, although if you were flat out (as on a track), it wouldn't be any quicker, and in fact would be trickier as you explored the "How are you going to know where the edge is, if you don't step over it from time to time?" regions.

Perhaps "tossable" is a poor word to describe a characteristic when rolling at eight-tenths on the street. "Willing" or perhaps "eager" might be better terms.

Bruce

PS - So you've become a true track rat? Way to go.

Of course, it's clearly an affliction.
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      11-08-2009, 02:08 PM   #746
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South, foot, don't get me wrong I am neither the least bit xenophobic nor nationalistic. Not one iota. Quite the oppostite in fact! All I meant was that the forum is based in the US, uses English and has a majority of American members. I greatly appreciate the diversity of folks and nationalities that choose to participate in this forum. Sorry if my comments sounded contrary to this. Cheers.
No problem Swamp.
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      11-08-2009, 02:21 PM   #747
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Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
South, foot, don't get me wrong I am neither the least bit xenophobic nor nationalistic. Not one iota. Quite the oppostite in fact! All I meant was that the forum is based in the US, uses English and has a majority of American members. I greatly appreciate the diversity of folks and nationalities that choose to participate in this forum. Sorry if my comments sounded contrary to this. Cheers.
Thanks for clarifying, Swamp.


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      11-08-2009, 05:46 PM   #748
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Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
Sorry for my somewhat murky note.

What I was trying to convey in regard to the term "tossable" on the street bears no relation to actually tossing a car at the track.

I was really referring to the how willing the car is to turn in and negotiate a corner at not more than eight tenths. Take a Cayman out on your favorite set of twisties, and compare it to your M3. Because of weight and polar moments, the Cayman will feel more willing to telepathically negotiate the twisty bits, although if you were flat out (as on a track), it wouldn't be any quicker, and in fact would be trickier as you explored the "How are you going to know where the edge is, if you don't step over it from time to time?" regions.

Perhaps "tossable" is a poor word to describe a characteristic when rolling at eight-tenths on the street. "Willing" or perhaps "eager" might be better terms.
Thanks for the clarification. Yes, I think "willing" or "eager" might indeed be better terms.

Quote:
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PS - So you've become a true track rat? Way to go.

Of course, it's clearly an affliction.
An affliction indeed, and one I had not planned on really.

Tell that to my bank account. Let's see how much the 2.5L S14 rebuild runs me. I'll do it myself, but it will still cost a fortune. I just bought a set of EVO3 pistons...
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