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      11-03-2009, 12:15 PM   #419
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Just amazing how simple rumors or hearsay become facts after a few posts.

Not that I could afford one of these tomorrow anyway, but I am impatiently waiting for some official BMW info on this topic.
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      11-03-2009, 12:34 PM   #420
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemans_Blue_M View Post
You maybe right about the horsepower number, my info is two months old. I still believe the number will be lower than 460, but we shall see very soon.

The primary reason the M engineers increased the displacement to 4.4 lilters, was to shore up the bottom end TORQUE. (from the factory output of 295lb/ft.)

This bump in displacement also allows the engine to create additional power without rasing the rev limiter to 9000 rpms which would reduce the lifespan of the power plant.

I was told in August, that the estimated torque output goal was 330 lb/ft., which is slightly more than the new 997 GT3. (the M divisions primary target)

The weight reduction comes from: the removal of sound deadening materials, lightweight doors, lightweight exhaust system, radio delete, lightweight tires and wheels, rear seat delete, lightweight front racing seats, lightweight suspension components, lightweight battery, and a few exterior body panels.(

I did not get the details on which body panels were changed, or what materials they used to reduce the weight.
I think Savage is correct with the figure of 460ps because that the figure the engine should produce from only the increase in capacity and nothing else changed. I also hinted long and hard that the torque would increase and again the figure you are saying fits with what I know.
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      11-03-2009, 12:38 PM   #421
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stankia View Post
Read why the E46 CSL was never imported to the US, like I said, not BMW's fault.
Uh, why don't you try to make your case by posting a reference. Your word is not gospel, and we can judge whether your reference is BS or not.

As many have said, every exotic car company in the world seems to find a way to participate in the US market, with their highest performance products.
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      11-03-2009, 12:50 PM   #422
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This thing is gonna be a beast!!!
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      11-03-2009, 12:52 PM   #423
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stankia View Post
I don't need any references, I was on e46fanatics.com way before the E46 M3 CSL was even introduced and I remember exactly like it was yesterday the talk and disappointment about the CSL not being imported here. One of the biggest reasons was the emissions and tires. You can try google but I doubt you will find any references since this was happening 6 years ago. Trust me BMW really wanted to import it here, but things might have changed since BMW is not as enthusiast orientated like it used to be. While you at it also search why BMW Individual is not officially supported here, again, stupid laws, not BMW decision/fault.
Oh, I see, and I figured it was "internet talk," (AKA primarily BS) without a credible reference. You can't believe corporate spinmeisters either, as they will dodge, weave, and deceive. Nevermind . . .

You should probably ask yourself how Ferrari, Lambo, and Porsche manage to continually kick up their power outputs and comply with US laws. While you're at it, you should probably become informed about how tough EU emissions laws are too.
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      11-03-2009, 12:52 PM   #424
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foosh View Post
Swamp, and you need to read what I said, which was factoring in that the car will not be sold in the US. The point is if you want one, you will pay the price in Euros, and try to find a way to get it back to the US.

I am fully aware that different markets get different pricing schemes, and cars in the US market tend to be pretty cheap compared to Europe and Asia.
Sorry, I understand this perspective. I was surprised by your post actually.
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      11-03-2009, 12:53 PM   #425
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seriousm3 View Post
Mercedes has the balls to sell the clk63 black here.
Porsche has the balls to sell the gt3/gt3rs here.
Ferrari has the balls to sell the Scuderia/CS here.
Aston has the balls to sell the DBS here.

The management at BMW needs to get their heads out of their asses and quit excluding their biggest market; The US buys more sports car then anyone else in the world.
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      11-03-2009, 12:53 PM   #426
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...
And the car should be shown worldwide during next last MotoGp Race by a very famous Bike driver...Can you imagine the name? ...
Rossi? Nobody is more famous.
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      11-03-2009, 12:54 PM   #427
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seriousm3 View Post
Mercedes has the balls to sell the clk63 black here.
Porsche has the balls to sell the gt3/gt3rs here.
Ferrari has the balls to sell the Scuderia/CS here.
Aston has the balls to sell the DBS here.

The management at BMW needs to get their heads out of their asses and quit excluding their biggest market; The US buys more sports car then anyone else in the world.
I agree with you!!!!!!!!!!
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      11-03-2009, 01:11 PM   #428
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Emissions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stankia View Post
If they are why is the US E46 M3 using completely different headers than the EU M3? Maybe the US and EU emission laws are now more equal, but it was not the case 6+ years ago.
I can confirm the U.S. specification E9x M3's emissions are set from the factory 50% stricter than EU versions. The U.S. versions will trigger a SES light for increased emissions twice as fast as the EU counterpart.
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      11-03-2009, 01:13 PM   #429
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stankia View Post
I don't need any references, I was on e46fanatics.com way before the E46 M3 CSL was even introduced and I remember exactly like it was yesterday the talk and disappointment about the CSL not being imported here. One of the biggest reasons was the emissions and tires. You can try google but I doubt you will find any references since this was happening 6 years ago. Trust me BMW really wanted to import it here. But things might have changed since BMW is not as enthusiast orientated like it used to be. While you at it also search why BMW Individual is not officially supported here, again, stupid laws, not BMW decision/fault.

Even the regular E46 M3 is 10HP short of it's European models because of the stupid emission laws. If BMW were to import the E46 CSL here they would have completely redesign it to make it street legal in the US and what's the point in that?
You're completely misinformed.

The tires stopped it from coming to the US?... you know we can buy pilot sport cups on tirerack right? You know they are road legal right????

As for the emissions... LOL... its exactly the same engine with a different cams and airbox... it literally makes absolutely no difference from an emissions standpoint. A csl and normal m3 produce exactly the same emissions in exactly the same amounts.

The placement of headers in the e46 m3 was implements solely to reduce cold start emissions by heating the cats up faster... once the car has been driven for more then 3 minutes this argument goes out the window... and its ~5hp btw the other 5 is lost due to DIN vs. SAE correction factors.




ALSO PLEASE SHOW ME WHERE IN THE LAW IT STATES BMW CAN'T PAINT MY CAR A SPECIFIC CUSTOM COLOR!!!!!!!
(this is really ROFL... I have no idea how you can believe this is in anyway rationale)

I swear some of the garbage posted on these forums is unbelievable.
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      11-03-2009, 01:15 PM   #430
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gearhead999s View Post
We pay it for GT3's & Rs's,so why would we not pay it for a truly special BMW M3?
Quote:
Originally Posted by foosh View Post
You should probably ask yourself how Ferrari, Lambo, and Porsche manage to continually kick up their power outputs and comply with US laws. While you're at it, you should probably become informed about how tough EU emissions laws are too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by seriousm3 View Post
Mercedes has the balls to sell the clk63 black here.
Porsche has the balls to sell the gt3/gt3rs here.
Ferrari has the balls to sell the Scuderia/CS here.
Aston has the balls to sell the DBS here.

The management at BMW needs to get their heads out of their asses and quit excluding their biggest market; The US buys more sports car then anyone else in the world.
The difference is that all the other brands also have an image being strong enough to sell these cars. Many here already said that they would prefer an GT3 for the same price, which is understandable based on the GT3's image. BMW had to realize that their brand isn't strong enough to sell a "souped up 3 series" for the same money. Hence, they won't even try.


Best regards,
south
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      11-03-2009, 01:17 PM   #431
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stankia View Post
If they are why is the US E46 M3 using completely different headers than the EU M3? Maybe the US and EU emission laws are now more equal, but it was not the case 6+ years ago.
Again, you have to ask yourself how every other high performance car company does it. The reasons can't logically be blamed on US law, but can only be due to corporate strategy. Obviously, it's not worth it to US spec a car when only a few of them are going to be produced.

They're just throwing a bone out there to say, "see we can do it, just like Porsche." However, they are showing no signs of actually wanting to compete in the real high-performance consumer market.

EDIT: I was typing while Southlight was posting. He said it more directly than I did, but I couldn't agree with him more. It is ridiculous to try to claim it's because US laws pertaining to auto standards are too restrictive.
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      11-03-2009, 01:21 PM   #432
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Quote:
Originally Posted by southlight View Post
The difference is that all the other brands also have an image being strong enough to sell these cars. Many here already said that they would prefer an GT3 for the same price, which is understandable based on the GT3's image. BMW had to realize that they dont have an image being strong enough to sell a "souped up 3 series" for the same money. Hence, they won't even try.


Best regards,
south
Who said it has to cost the same money? The fact that its based on a 3 series should be an advantage... not a negative because of the ability to take a cheaper chassis (then say a 911 chassis) and then apply the ltw treatment to it.


Im not trying to justify $120,000 3 series but there is no reason BMW couldn't build a $75k-85k CSL m3, and it wouldn't sell here.

BTW I guess its obvious that racket bmw was pushing 2 years ago about, "A csl (or gt4 as it turns out) version wouldn't be a significant improvement on the normal e9x m3"... basically they added 30hp, bolted on coils & big brakes and replaced the front seats/removed the rears and the chassis is 15+ sec faster around the ring.
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      11-03-2009, 01:22 PM   #433
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I agree. BMW is only trying to make a statement here that they can make a car that can compete directly with GT3 with the M3 GT4.

However, if BMW was truly interested in selling this car to enthusiasts, they would bring it to North America. The whole emissions excuse is lame and so played out. If Porsche could bring GT3, GT3 RS, Ferrari can bring Scuderia, Audi can bring R8 V10, so can BMW bring the M3 V8 GT4 to North America.

Quote:
Originally Posted by foosh View Post
They're just throwing a bone out there to say, "see we can do it, just like Porsche." However, they are showing no signs of actually wanting to compete in the real high-performance consumer market.
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      11-03-2009, 01:25 PM   #434
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Just saw this: http://www.motogp.com/en/news/2009/bmw+m+award+valencia

The last paragraph is inline with Mr. Savage.ULM's latest post on someone famous from MotoGP presenting the rumored M3.

May be a repost but at this point nobody could care less
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      11-03-2009, 01:25 PM   #435
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I am sorry, but many of you seemed very misinformed over why the e46 CSL did not come to the States. It was just the seats AND carbon fiber roof. That's all, nothing else. At the time they did not pass vehicle crash test ratings with the DOT. BMW did not feel that it was worth the money to spend in crashing the cars to certify them as well as redesign the front seats to meet compliance. With those issues BMW marketing still had the thoughts of the awful selling e36 lightweight and they did not want another repeat.
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      11-03-2009, 01:29 PM   #436
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cosmos515 View Post
I am sorry, but many of you seemed very misinformed over why the e46 CSL did not come to the States. It was just the seats AND carbon fiber roof. That's all, nothing else. At the time they did not pass vehicle crash test ratings with the DOT. BMW did not feel that it was worth the money to spend in crashing the cars to certify them as well as redesign the front seats to meet compliance. With those issues BMW marketing still had the thoughts of the awful selling e36 lightweight and they did not want another repeat.
really thats funny becase the clk black has exactly the same seats as the CSL, and yet somehow it is able to pass our safety laws.

Oh and the CF roof wouldn't pass crash tests huh? I guess the spot welded on 1/16" steel was just that much stronger the CF HUH?

Glad BMW resolved this issue with exactly the same roof put on exactly the same way with the m6 and e92 m3.

Again quit posting this rubbish.

The csl e46 m3 didn't come the US because the marketing/sales department at BMW didn't think they would sell here because the last lightweight version of the m3... the e36 m3 LTW rotted on dealer showrooms. But times are different from 1995 now... track days are way more popular and people are much more accepting of paying big bucks for LTW track versions of cars.
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      11-03-2009, 01:35 PM   #437
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seriousm3 View Post
Who said it has to cost the same money? The fact that its based on a 3 series should be an advantage... not a negative because of the ability to take a cheaper chassis (then say a 911 chassis) and then apply the ltw treatment to it.
No, it's always an advantage to have a capable chassis to begin with. Every later change or treatment to tune a chassis to more sporty standards is more complex and more expensive. Hence, BMW now started to involve ///M even more in the development of the standard chassis. The next M5 is said to share way more chassis parts with the lesser siblings than ever.

Quote:
Originally Posted by seriousm3 View Post
Im not trying to justify $120,000 3 series but there is no reason BMW couldn't build a $75k-85k CSL m3, and it wouldn't sell here.
If the new Z4 is anything to go by, $75k would be the appropriate price for the E92 M3, not the CSL.


Quote:
Originally Posted by seriousm3 View Post
BTW I guess its obvious that racket bmw was pushing 2 years ago about, "A csl (or gt4 as it turns out) version wouldn't be a significant improvement on the normal e9x m3"... basically they added 30hp, bolted on coils & big brakes and replaced the front seats/removed the rears and the chassis is 15+ sec faster around the ring.
Let's wait and see.


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      11-03-2009, 01:37 PM   #438
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Quote:
Originally Posted by r53s65e90 View Post
Just saw this: http://www.motogp.com/en/news/2009/bmw+m+award+valencia

The last paragraph is inline with Mr. Savage.ULM's latest post on someone famous from MotoGP presenting the rumored M3.



Best regards,
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      11-03-2009, 01:42 PM   #439
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Quote:
Originally Posted by southlight View Post
No, it's always an advantage to have a capable chassis to begin with. Every later change or treatment to tune a chassis to more sporty standards is more complex and more expensive. Hence, BMW now started to involve ///M even more in the development of the standard chassis. The next M5 is said to share way more chassis parts with the lesser siblings than ever.


If the new Z4 is anything to go by, $75k would be the appropriate price for the E92 M3, not the CSL.



Let's wait and see.


Best regards,
south
What? the chassis isn't capable? It just ran 7:40 on the ring with new front seats, brakes, suspension and +30hp... don't tell me it isn't capable.

Why would you speculate on the price of an m3 based on a z4 instead of the price an m3 is currently offered at? That doesn't make any sense. Base m3 + $25-30 grand. The car would be a monster and would sell.
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      11-03-2009, 01:46 PM   #440
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Serious,

His post was somewhat ambiguous. In one sentence he said they didn't pass the US crash test, and then in the next sentence he said, they chose not to test it on US specs. It is the latter which is true, and that was a simple corporate choice.

BMW simply chose not to bother with making the car US spec, period, full-stop. History is simply repeating itself.
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