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      10-29-2009, 03:54 PM   #45
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Who said old people drive slow?

Not bad of a time for a 77 year old.
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      10-29-2009, 05:42 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FStop7 View Post
" the BMW M3 placed first, but the times were so close it was likely a difference in driver skill that won today's race -- nothing shocking to those who follow racing. Even though the BMW technically won, Cadillac still comes out on top for this event. "

you should read things to the end before posting them as though they help you win an argument.
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      10-29-2009, 08:19 PM   #47
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Uhh, fact is given equal drivers, the M3 is waaaay slower than a CTS-V. Period.
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      10-29-2009, 10:04 PM   #48
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To my understanding, all of these drivers were amateurs. Saying that "driver skill" won the race is a fallacy because as amateurs all of these drivers were unskilled. So what does having the M3 on top tell us? That it's the easier car to drive fast. And that's significant because nobody here is Michael Schumacher.
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      10-29-2009, 10:08 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremyc74 View Post
You did read the part where the Caddy's time was four seconds faster than the M3....right?
It took two pro racers in the CTS-V to beat an amateur's time in the M3, that's hilarious.
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      10-29-2009, 10:12 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adrian1480 View Post
" the BMW M3 placed first, but the times were so close it was likely a difference in driver skill that won today's race -- nothing shocking to those who follow racing. Even though the BMW technically won, Cadillac still comes out on top for this event. "

you should read things to the end before posting them as though they help you win an argument.
Translation "GM fed us some of that sweet bailout cash for more ads, so we need to spin this as some kind of win for them even though it took two professionals with about 30 years of experience between them to beat the M3's time."
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      10-29-2009, 11:13 PM   #51
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This wasn't a challenge of the driver, but a challenge of the car. CTS-V won plain and simple. Obviously the race proved that dealing with these kind of cars, the driver brings out the best of the cars capabilities, but think of it this way..... Only one driver was able to beat a 77 year old guy.........
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      10-30-2009, 02:41 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FStop7 View Post
Translation "GM fed us some of that sweet bailout cash for more ads, so we need to spin this as some kind of win for them even though it took two professionals with about 30 years of experience between them to beat the M3's time."


but come on. it's the faster, more powerful car. it is what it is.
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      10-30-2009, 04:08 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FStop7 View Post
It took two pro racers in the CTS-V to beat an amateur's time in the M3, that's hilarious.
The CTS-V was on top of the time sheet, no matter what. Mission accomplished by GM. Regular people will look at the time sheet and see that the CTS-V beat two BMW's. Most people will not have clue who any of these drivers are. Great marketing, this is on every forum. Everyone knows the CTS-V is a beast and can handle.



Fstop,
Are you saying with a pro driver the M3 will do a quicker lap than the CTS-V?
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      10-30-2009, 04:26 AM   #54
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All the market-spinning aside, GM is trying to get cred in a very very competitive segment. Is an event like this going to attract AMG, M-series and other high-end performance enthusiasts? Not by itself. The biggest hurdle they have to overcome is still quality perception so not only does the Caddy need to be as fast or faster, it has to be as well made and reliable as a Lexus. On top of that it has to have STYLE or it will still bomb. If they really want to succeed they need to have an A game on every level AND they have to persevere.
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      10-30-2009, 05:49 AM   #55
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and probably continue to be on there A-game for 5+ years to convince everyone they are for real...
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      10-30-2009, 06:45 AM   #56
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Are you guys reading the same article I am? The CTS-V did not come out on top, the BMW M3 did. The 21 year old kid came in first. The other two times were set by professional drivers and were not part of the competition (or shouldn't have been anyway, there's no point in having an amateur race if you're going to throw in two pros at the end).

I don't think anyone's disputing that professional drivers could whirl the CTS-V around more quickly than an M3. What this race shows is that for the average schmuck (as in just about everybody) that fact makes absolutely no difference.

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      10-30-2009, 07:18 AM   #57
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      10-30-2009, 09:27 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adrian1480 View Post


but come on. it's the faster, more powerful car. it is what it is.
In terms of pure acceleration absolutely yes, the CTS-V is faster. In terms of being able to apply that power around a track, it's less clear. If Heinricy or O'Connell had jumped into the M3 that day and done some laps giving the same amount of effort they did in the V, then we'd know better. It looks to me like they're pretty close.

The V is interesting because it's priced competitively with the M3, yet as a car it's meant to compete with the M5. It certainly kills the M5 in pretty much every metric.
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      10-30-2009, 10:54 AM   #59
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Quote:
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It took two pro racers in the CTS-V to beat an amateur's time in the M3, that's hilarious.

No, it took someone who's familiar with the car to beat a guy who's driving his own car, that he drives every single day. And the pros didn't just "beat" him, they destroyed him. Four seconds is a huge gap.

Bottom line is, the fastest driver in the CTS-V is faster than the fastest driver in anything else that was there. If you think the M3 is faster, back it up with some data. The CTS-V also beat it in the C&D comparision.
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      10-30-2009, 10:59 AM   #60
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Cadillac made their point, but just like an Internet Poll, this is not definitive. I'd like to see one (or more) of BMW's factory hot shoes, or some professional BMW racers give it a go.

The Caddie has 140 hp more than the M3, and with Heinricy, who probably put the final stamp on the CTS-V, at the wheel it only has a 4 second advantage in 4 miles? I don't know the M3 driver, but a single 21-year-old driver came that close? Give the M3 to Auberlen, Steve Dinan, or Hans Stuck, and I bet it would be a different story.

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      10-30-2009, 11:32 AM   #61
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The m3 used wasnt stock. It had black grills
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      10-30-2009, 11:37 AM   #62
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The m3 used wasnt stock. It had black grills
But white grills would have been lighter

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      10-30-2009, 09:50 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3_WC View Post
The CTS-V was on top of the time sheet, no matter what. Mission accomplished by GM. Regular people will look at the time sheet and see that the CTS-V beat two BMW's. Most people will not have clue who any of these drivers are. Great marketing, this is on every forum. Everyone knows the CTS-V is a beast and can handle.



Fstop,
Are you saying with a pro driver the M3 will do a quicker lap than the CTS-V?

You are clearly confused. This was a BOB LUTZ' challenge! Remember! At least it was until they got schooled by a kid. Not one of the starting registered drivers could beat Michael Cooper in there CTS-V's so here come the pro drivers in the last lap to the rescue and to save Cadillac the embarrassment, good job guys
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      10-30-2009, 09:59 PM   #64
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Quote:
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You are clearly confused. This was a BOB LUTZ' challenge! Remember! At least it was until they got schooled by a kid. Not one of the starting registered drivers could beat Michael Cooper in there CTS-V's so here come the pro drivers in the last lap to the rescue and to save Cadillac the embarrassment, good job guys
Everyone knew Heinricy would be ready to go around the course if needed. Stop crying that you can't brag the M3 beat the CTS-V. Only thing you can brag is the M3 beat up on a 77 year old guy.

http://www.autoblog.com/2009/10/19/c...ricy-to-stand/
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      10-30-2009, 10:33 PM   #65
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Quote:
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You are clearly confused. This was a BOB LUTZ' challenge! Remember! At least it was until they got schooled by a kid. Not one of the starting registered drivers could beat Michael Cooper in there CTS-V's so here come the pro drivers in the last lap to the rescue and to save Cadillac the embarrassment, good job guys

This was never about outdriving Bob Lutz. He's damn near 80 years old. WTF would it prove if a 25 year old in an M3 outran him?!

This was about the car. You can't seriously expect GM to throw down a challenge like this to anyone who wants to run and not use their best drivers.

All this whining that GM had a faster driver is just BS. If any of the other manufacturers thought they had a shot at this, why didn't they send a factory hot shoe over there to show ol' Bob what's what?

The fastest lap in the CTS was FOUR SECONDS faster than the fastest lap in the M3.


How about an opinion from one of the other people that actually drove in this:

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/how...35&PID=3323800
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      10-31-2009, 12:19 AM   #66
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Quote:
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No, it took someone who's familiar with the car to beat a guy who's driving his own car, that he drives every single day. And the pros didn't just "beat" him, they destroyed him. Four seconds is a huge gap.

Bottom line is, the fastest driver in the CTS-V is faster than the fastest driver in anything else that was there. If you think the M3 is faster, back it up with some data. The CTS-V also beat it in the C&D comparision.


Bottom line, a pro driver in a faster car- in a car he helped develop- beat a kid in a car with 150+ less HP, around a track the pro-driver did extensive lapping on. That's the bottom line. Not too impressive, IMO.
How many track events have you done?

Bottom line, the kid beat all the other amateurs, including the ones in a CTS-V; one of whom apparently wrote a book on cars, so I'd think he's had some tme behind the wheel of a car at a track. The kid's a stud. This contest was just BS since it's different people driving their own cars with each at a different skill level. Anyone who's been on a track knows it's the driver >>> the car.
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Last edited by aus; 10-31-2009 at 12:45 PM.
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