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      10-28-2009, 10:42 AM   #23
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KT, dynos are easily manipulated up and down. A real world run with your car against a similar modded one and the results posted will put the internet critics to bed or wake them up.

At the end of the day, its your car, your mods and you are happy. Nice work- gotta love that RPI full race (I got it too) but now I need the cold start mod.
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      10-28-2009, 11:32 AM   #24
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I chose to post because i have some experience with AA's dyno and this argument is stupid.

AA's mustang dyno reads very low even compared to other mustang's. We all know this by now, any dyno can be manipulated including mustang's. But i know for a fact AA is legit with there mustang, it is there pride and joy for tuning.

To the OP, dont even worry about it. 20 hp gain with a software change is good for an N/A car! You can be sure thats a legit 20hp gain.
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      10-28-2009, 11:51 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by King Tut View Post
I'm gonna ask to delete this thead. It is obvious that the user's of this forum do not understand dynos and are Internet racing cars by comparing dyno runs. There is nothing wrong with my car and I am not missing 20 hp. Dynos should be used for tuning and for comparing before and after. They aren't for reaching some magical number so you can brag on the Internet. You say I'm missing 20 hp yet your proof shows a different Mustang dyno and someone who made 4 more hp than me. Note that dyno showed a stock M3 make 328 hp while AA's dyno says a stock M3 makes only 318 hp. That is a 10 hp difference so add that on to mine and I made 368 which is more than the dyno you posted. You can't just use some magical formula of X says it makes X hp and so I add them together and subtract drivetrain loss. Not all dynos read the same. This is a proven fact.
One questioning and you are already running to the boondocks? Give me a freaking break...
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      10-28-2009, 12:01 PM   #26
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KT,

It seems that I have wasted a great deal of time and energy trying point out something that you have zero interest in. So I'll back off now, and let you have the stage. (since it's your thread) No need to close it, as I am not going to pursue this situation any further.

I made a mistake by taking your initial comments at face value. (that all comments were welcome)

I can assure you that I have reviewed and commissioned several thousand dyno graphs over the past 20 years, so I certainly know which brands read HIGH and which brands will typically read LOW. (and why)

I am familiar with just about every engine/chassis dynamometer on the planet. The vast array of dynamometers like DynoJet, Mustang, Dynapak, Dyno Dynamics, MAHA (BMW M division has one in-house), and Superflow (Akrapovic has one in-house) will all record different results, depending on how they are setup (software), and the skill of the individual dyno operator.

I am also familiar with the different sensors and measuring devices that are used to measure the horsepower and torque of a given automobile. Single eddy current, Dual eddy current, rpm/tach sensors, hub mounted sensors, electro-mechanical resistance rollers, inertia rollers, etc. etc. etc...

I think we both got to wrapped up in trying to explain to the other guy how dynos work, and how they derive the power output of the engine.

I admit that I can be a bit overbearing at times , and that my intentions are not always clear. For that I apologize...

Let's both hit the 'reset' button and start over...if that's okay with you?

I meant no harm, and I have no beef with AA in this particular situation. No, I am not happy with them right now for other reasons, but my concerns or criticisms of the perceived power discrepancies here (that I see) have nothing to do with it. That is a separate issue.

I hope you can understand what I was trying to convey, even if you disagree with my overall assessment of your latest dyno results.

I look forward to seeing the results of the Dynojet pulls you are going to get next month.

Take care.
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      10-28-2009, 12:07 PM   #27
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I think AA's dyno usually baselines stock M3's at 318-322, so it looks like he's +40hp over stock. Not bad, but I think there's more power on the table .
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      10-28-2009, 12:18 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by powertrip View Post
I think AA's dyno usually baselines stock M3's at 318-322, so it looks like he's +40hp over stock. Not bad, but I think there's more power on the table .
Yes, exactly...

That's nearly -100 hp down from the stock 414 hp.

You have to admit...those numbers mean they are factoring in tremendous amount of drivetrain loss...
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      10-28-2009, 12:34 PM   #29
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So much anger.
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      10-28-2009, 01:29 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemans_Blue_M View Post
Yes, exactly...

That's nearly -100 hp down from the stock 414 hp.

You have to admit...those numbers mean they are factoring in tremendous amount of drivetrain loss...
Mustang and Dyno Dynamics usually put the stock M3 at about 310-320hp. Dyno jet usually 335-350
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      10-28-2009, 01:42 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by powertrip View Post
I think AA's dyno usually baselines stock M3's at 318-322, so it looks like he's +40hp over stock.
There must be a lot of broken stock M3 motors out there.
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      10-28-2009, 03:46 PM   #32
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I will post my results yet again when I go back to the same Dynojet I have already dynoed the car at twice. I like PencilGeek like to know that the parts I am installing make power. My car has already been on the dyno on 3 seperate occasions because I like to know and share my results. I installed the MS filter on the dyno and picked up 7 hp. I also learned that the Evosport pulley wasn't making 18 hp like their website claimed so I removed that part from my car. As I have mentioned I expect the car to make around 380hp on the Dynojet next month. Perhaps I will be surprised and will make more since the air temps will probably be in the 60s or 70s versus the 90s in South Florida. The point is I don't care. I know the car runs good, and I know that letting AA tune the car was well worth it.
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      10-28-2009, 04:30 PM   #33
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This thread is pretty easy to understand (OP correct me if I am wrong) and I'm curious why there is so much debate...

This thread is about a car with bolt-on mods + stock software VS the car with the SAME bolt-on mods + AA custom tune software

The dyno does not show a bone stock car vs the car with all the bolt-ons + software tune - it shows the car with bolt-ons and stock software vs the car with bolt-ons + AA software...

IMO there is nothing wrong with +20WHP from a software tune alone - once the OP does the Dynojet I'm sure he will get far more than +20WHP given his base line was taken the car was bone stock.

People who use dynos as an absolute measure are stupid - they should only be used as a relative measure and +20WHP and a "low" reading of 360WHP is actually better relatively speaking than +20WHP and a "high" reading of 400WHP on a dyno...

What I would love to see is a comparison of an off the shelf tune with a custom tune because I think this whole custom tune story is just a marketing tool to sell more tunes/make more money when we are looking at this specific type of car and the way its engine management system works...
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      10-28-2009, 04:55 PM   #34
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Good points, BUT I will most certainly disagree with your thoughts of OTS map vs a custom tuned map. My OTS map was actually making less HP than the stock tune. Why? Because the tuner had manipulated the throttle openings on top-end. End result, the car felt great until 7000 rpms where it began to close the throttle. My custom tune is head and shoulders above that ridiculous attempt at a tune .

Quote:
Originally Posted by mixja View Post
This thread is pretty easy to understand (OP correct me if I am wrong) and I'm curious why there is so much debate...

This thread is about a car with bolt-on mods + stock software VS the car with the SAME bolt-on mods + AA custom tune software

The dyno does not show a bone stock car vs the car with all the bolt-ons + software tune - it shows the car with bolt-ons and stock software vs the car with bolt-ons + AA software...

IMO there is nothing wrong with +20WHP from a software tune alone - once the OP does the Dynojet I'm sure he will get far more than +20WHP given his base line was taken the car was bone stock.

People who use dynos as an absolute measure are stupid - they should only be used as a relative measure and +20WHP and a "low" reading of 360WHP is actually better relatively speaking than +20WHP and a "high" reading of 400WHP on a dyno...

What I would love to see is a comparison of an off the shelf tune with a custom tune because I think this whole custom tune story is just a marketing tool to sell more tunes/make more money when we are looking at this specific type of car and the way its engine management system works...
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      10-28-2009, 06:11 PM   #35
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How much is the average powertrain loss in this M3 engine? 17%, 20%, 30%?
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      10-28-2009, 06:22 PM   #36
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Probably between 15 and 20%
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      10-28-2009, 06:39 PM   #37
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Man why do so many people want to prove they no more about things than others. For crist sake let the OP have his stage and congratulate him. He obviously did his home work on AA or he wouldn't have driven 22 hours.
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      10-28-2009, 06:40 PM   #38
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Drivetrain Loss

The answer is closer to 15% in reality, but I would accept a dyno reading with a drivetrain loss of up to 18%. Now that's on the high end of scale, and percentages higher than this are highly suspect in my book.

Measuring your engines horsepower and torque (on any given dyno) is crap shoot.

All the dynamometer brands I listed earlier, each have their own unique interpretation of what constitutes the proper drivetrain loss calculations for a particular car.

This why cross referencing one dyno chart to another can be so frustrating.
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      10-28-2009, 07:06 PM   #39
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Quote:
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How much is the average powertrain loss in this M3 engine? 17%, 20%, 30%?
If you rate in on the MAHA dyno that BMW uses its about 14%.
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      10-28-2009, 07:10 PM   #40
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No one really knows the true drivetrain loss every dyno reads different, doesn't nesscessarily mean drivetrain loss its just measured differently. i.e. Average Dyno Dynamic will read 310whp or so with a stock M3 that would be about 33% difference from the claimed crank hp. On a dynojet the stop whp number will be between 335-350whp depending on the machine. That could me a 18% difference neither one means that the M3 is really losing the power its just measured differently.

Based on my experience nothing beats a custom tune. What might work for my car might not make the same power for your car why who knows. But fact is every car is different when modded and exhaust from company A doesn't just mean company B's exhaust will make the same or more power it could make less and that can be enough to require a different tune. But even if all the cars are the same with the same stuff certain cars just react differently when they're broken in differently different fuel all kinds of stuff but I have yet to see a OTS tune make the same or more then a Custom tune.
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      10-28-2009, 08:05 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by powertrip View Post
Good points, BUT I will most certainly disagree with your thoughts of OTS map vs a custom tuned map. My OTS map was actually making less HP than the stock tune. Why? Because the tuner had manipulated the throttle openings on top-end. End result, the car felt great until 7000 rpms where it began to close the throttle. My custom tune is head and shoulders above that ridiculous attempt at a tune .
This sounds to me like a problem with the OTS map rather than something specific to your car that required a "custom" tune to resolve.

Honestly the only custom tuning that is going to make any difference is tuning VANOS based upon your modifications (specifically around intake and exhaust). But this is something that is exceedingly complex to manually tune and could only be done quickly and efficiently by being about to model your specific engine/intake/exhaust configuration (i.e. expensive computer software that BMW spends $$$$ on)

Note that there are some tuners who are starting to play with VANOS and are getting impressive power gains (like double what is currently achieved) with OTS tunes. Hopefully I'll have such a tune soon once some issues with my car are sorted out
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      10-28-2009, 08:28 PM   #42
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All I was really looking for in a custom tune was a nice 13:1 air fuel ratio which is what I got. An off the shelf tune probably won't have as flat a line as my car did as you have to assume how much fuel the car will want for the mods the car has. Even if all the VANOS and other things are left the same for an OTS and custom the air fuel tuning is worth it. I can't wait to see the results of the Houston Powerchip group custom tuning session.
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      10-28-2009, 08:41 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonmartin View Post
No one really knows the true drivetrain loss every dyno reads different, doesn't nesscessarily mean drivetrain loss its just measured differently. i.e. Average Dyno Dynamic will read 310whp or so with a stock M3 that would be about 33% difference from the claimed crank hp. On a dynojet the stop whp number will be between 335-350whp depending on the machine. That could me a 18% difference neither one means that the M3 is really losing the power its just measured differently.

Based on my experience nothing beats a custom tune. What might work for my car might not make the same power for your car why who knows. But fact is every car is different when modded and exhaust from company A doesn't just mean company B's exhaust will make the same or more power it could make less and that can be enough to require a different tune. But even if all the cars are the same with the same stuff certain cars just react differently when they're broken in differently different fuel all kinds of stuff but I have yet to see a OTS tune make the same or more then a Custom tune.
Unless you are running a full catless exhaust system there is 0 need for a custom tune. The engine management system in this car eliminates the need for custom tuning it actually wont let you custom tune it like the old days. With multiple input signals this engine management system calculates corrections on its own, you simply tell it what AFR targets you want and it will execute the corrections to achieve it. Where you can gain a little power on this stock motor is by setting ideal timing / AFR targets, adjusting the cylinder noise levels and adjusting VANOS controls. These targets are the same for ALL stock cars. How a motor was broken in or how it was put together makes no difference.

When you run a full catless exhaust you can set custom targets to take advantage of the less restrictive exhaust and remap the VANOS control to correct for overlapping due to loss of back pressure. This is done by collecting data on the exhaust system with several dyno runs, comparing them to the original baseline and making corrections based on how that particular design is affecting performance and where there is room for improvement. This process when done correctly takes time.
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      10-28-2009, 08:56 PM   #44
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man all this just makes me never want to dyno my car. it seems like you never really know if the hp and tq numbers are correct
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