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      10-14-2009, 04:07 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by ACZakka325i View Post
You people call yourselves American?

I can't wait for the opportunity to buy a second car (likely SUV) and it will almost certainly be American. I'd rather keep the dollars in the country. And that something you younger people don't know anything about. That its a strong American economy that provides you with opportunities to buy nice things (be it import or domestic).

You don't have to drive an American car, but for fucks sake, cheer them on.
You can still buy any of the german SUVs except the X3. Made in the good ol US of A... along with the new Z4(?), a lot of Hondas, Acuras, Toyotas... no need to buy an 'merican ESSYOUVEE. They may be good to serve as a surrogate living room, but nothing that will kindle a true drivers blood. The X5 on the other hand = Big Phat Grin, and please refrain from throwing the 'the parts are still foreign'. Not really. A lot of the stuff is locally made.
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      10-14-2009, 04:18 PM   #24
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The 'Ecotec' V6 uses direct injection, but not piezo injectors like BMW, they use a solenoid injector. The Ford drivetrain engineer/PR flak I talked to this year said they didn't see a significant increase in performance/mileage to warrant using the more complex DI that BMW employs.

So rather than have an injector above the combustion chamber, they spray on the side and use a 'lip' (seawall?) on the piston to 'bounce' fuel off of. A pic is attached:
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      10-14-2009, 04:56 PM   #25
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I'll take a CTS-V over the taurus or the 550i. No contest.
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      10-14-2009, 05:04 PM   #26
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I think Ford is doing an excellent job. Here we are, BMW snobs laughing because the 550i beat the ford by how much? What is the price difference between the two cars again?
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      10-14-2009, 06:14 PM   #27
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I'll buy American when someone makes a car that actually appeals to me. I buy plenty of American made products when they are superior to the competition. The only thing worse than badge snobs that won't buy American is people who say I am unamerican for not buying American. I had a guy in a corvette pull up to me at a light one time and call my car a nazi pos.
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      10-14-2009, 06:20 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ACZakka325i View Post
You people call yourselves American?

I can't wait for the opportunity to buy a second car (likely SUV) and it will almost certainly be American. I'd rather keep the dollars in the country. And that something you younger people don't know anything about. That its a strong American economy that provides you with opportunities to buy nice things (be it import or domestic).
You are right, but that's not the solution. The solution is for american car companies to build better cars that appeal to the market. If they are not selling, then they are obviously doing something wrong. We have great designers and engineers in this country. Somebody is steering them in the wrong direction.
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      10-15-2009, 12:16 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by radiantm3 View Post
You are right, but that's not the solution. The solution is for american car companies to build better cars that appeal to the market. If they are not selling, then they are obviously doing something wrong. We have great designers and engineers in this country. Somebody is steering them in the wrong direction.
they are doing that. the reality is that if foreign brand names were slapped onto some of these cars from Buick, Cadillac, and now Ford...people would be fawning over these cars like they were the Second Coming.

No, the technology isn't the problem. The engineering isn't the problem. The design and appeal isn't the problem. The problem is public trust. They sold customers up the river in the 90s BSing with quality to the point where people decided they weren't coming back. People have long memories when it comes to cars because they play such an important part in their lives. My ex will never buy another Ford, for example, because her alternator died during a long road trip 30 minutes after her cellphone battery died. In the middle of nowhere, stranded and afraid to let people who stopped by to help...help. That traumatic memory is attached to FORD. Can an alternator give out on a BMW? Honda? A Benz? A Bentley? Abso-dam-lutely. But they don't have the burden of that bad experience in her mind...that association isn't there...so she'll feel more comfortable buying any of those other brands.

And how many repeat customers did BMW blow with the whole fuel pump fiasco? Many of those customers will never come back. And if BMW had let that kind of quality issue persist for 10 or 15 years, they'd find themselves in the same position The Big 3 are now in. Not because their engineering couldn't improve with the next year's models...but because the trust of their potential buyers would have been dissolved. Because their name would be saddled with those bad experiences...they'd be struggling to get by.

No...the only thing that can save The Big 3 now is time. YES, their quality is now equivalent to anyone else in their classes. YES, they now have good designs that can sell. But trust...they don't have that. Trust will only come back with time and consistency. Trust is funny like that, and anyone who knows someone who's had their trust violated in an intimate relationship know that it's a loooooong road back to redemption.

Let us hope GM, Ford, and Chrysler survive that long walk.
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      10-15-2009, 01:24 AM   #30
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Very capable cars, and at those high altitudes, the Lincoln did well. I was surprised to see the NA V8 550i do so well, even up high. If the Lincoln was RWD,or the Taurus SHO for that matter,I would undoubtedly test drive it. I don't see how this is a LOL. The Ford was right up there despite having one of the heaviest curb weights. It beat the E550 off and the Maserati, which are both quite sporty. Who said an American car can't keep up in the corners? This Lincoln may have a future, but you German heads can't get past the badge.
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      10-15-2009, 03:00 AM   #31
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I think Ford is doing an excellent job. Here we are, BMW snobs laughing because the 550i beat the ford by how much? What is the price difference between the two cars again?
The E60 is basically six years old. And it still won. In a completely slanted test.
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      10-15-2009, 04:42 AM   #32
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No, the technology isn't the problem. The engineering isn't the problem. The design and appeal isn't the problem. The problem is public trust.
Design and appeal is a big problem for me. I think 95% of american cars look horrid inside and out. A lot of people love the look of the CTS, but I don't like the looks at all. The only american cars that I find beautiful are the Ford GT, Corvette, and MAYBE the new camaro. I think the Mustang GT, Charger, and Challenger are mean looking cars, just not my style.
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      10-15-2009, 09:49 AM   #33
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My God they are desperate to sell something!!! I feel sorry for them!!
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      10-15-2009, 10:07 AM   #34
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My God they are desperate to sell something!!! I feel sorry for them!!
Have you been living in a closet for the last year?
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      10-15-2009, 10:08 AM   #35
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the point is that a lincoln (while costing much less) is running head to head and beating some other luxury cars. Coming in 2nd (or 1st) is not the point IMO.
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      10-15-2009, 10:09 AM   #36
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Quote:
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I think Ford is doing an excellent job. Here we are, BMW snobs laughing because the 550i beat the ford by how much? What is the price difference between the two cars again?
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      10-15-2009, 12:48 PM   #37
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I think Ford is doing an excellent job. Here we are, BMW snobs laughing because the 550i beat the ford by how much? What is the price difference between the two cars again?
BMW beat the Lincoln by about 2 seconds. And that's a lot! Considering that the 550i is rated at 360hp and the MKS at 355hp. And since the BMW had much much greater loss in power at that altitude it just goes to show how much of a better handing car it really is.

Now had those biased testers picked the 535i (just a 4k gap in MSRP to the MKS) I can almost guarantee it that it would of put an even greater gap between those two.
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      10-16-2009, 01:23 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adrian1480 View Post
they are doing that. the reality is that if foreign brand names were slapped onto some of these cars from Buick, Cadillac, and now Ford...people would be fawning over these cars like they were the Second Coming.

No, the technology isn't the problem. The engineering isn't the problem. The design and appeal isn't the problem. The problem is public trust. They sold customers up the river in the 90s BSing with quality to the point where people decided they weren't coming back. People have long memories when it comes to cars because they play such an important part in their lives. My ex will never buy another Ford, for example, because her alternator died during a long road trip 30 minutes after her cellphone battery died. In the middle of nowhere, stranded and afraid to let people who stopped by to help...help. That traumatic memory is attached to FORD. Can an alternator give out on a BMW? Honda? A Benz? A Bentley? Abso-dam-lutely. But they don't have the burden of that bad experience in her mind...that association isn't there...so she'll feel more comfortable buying any of those other brands.

And how many repeat customers did BMW blow with the whole fuel pump fiasco? Many of those customers will never come back. And if BMW had let that kind of quality issue persist for 10 or 15 years, they'd find themselves in the same position The Big 3 are now in. Not because their engineering couldn't improve with the next year's models...but because the trust of their potential buyers would have been dissolved. Because their name would be saddled with those bad experiences...they'd be struggling to get by.

No...the only thing that can save The Big 3 now is time. YES, their quality is now equivalent to anyone else in their classes. YES, they now have good designs that can sell. But trust...they don't have that. Trust will only come back with time and consistency. Trust is funny like that, and anyone who knows someone who's had their trust violated in an intimate relationship know that it's a loooooong road back to redemption.

Let us hope GM, Ford, and Chrysler survive that long walk.
Well said!
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      10-16-2009, 09:43 AM   #39
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So many fanbois, so many ignorant statements, so many so called "educated" people on this site that don't have a fucking clue. e90post.com, proof of book smarts and lack of common sense.
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      10-16-2009, 09:51 AM   #40
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they are doing that. the reality is that if foreign brand names were slapped onto some of these cars from Buick, Cadillac, and now Ford...people would be fawning over these cars like they were the Second Coming.
Exactly. Even styling.

Quote:

No, the technology isn't the problem. The engineering isn't the problem. The design and appeal isn't the problem. The problem is public trust. They sold customers up the river in the 90s BSing with quality to the point where people decided they weren't coming back. People have long memories when it comes to cars because they play such an important part in their lives. My ex will never buy another Ford, for example, because her alternator died during a long road trip 30 minutes after her cellphone battery died. In the middle of nowhere, stranded and afraid to let people who stopped by to help...help. That traumatic memory is attached to FORD. Can an alternator give out on a BMW? Honda? A Benz? A Bentley? Abso-dam-lutely. But they don't have the burden of that bad experience in her mind...that association isn't there...so she'll feel more comfortable buying any of those other brands.

And how many repeat customers did BMW blow with the whole fuel pump fiasco? Many of those customers will never come back. And if BMW had let that kind of quality issue persist for 10 or 15 years, they'd find themselves in the same position The Big 3 are now in. Not because their engineering couldn't improve with the next year's models...but because the trust of their potential buyers would have been dissolved. Because their name would be saddled with those bad experiences...they'd be struggling to get by.
Actually, Honda and the Germans will get a pass when something happens. If Toyotas sludge their engines, and Toyota says it's a user problem, well, they just keep selling "reliable cars." A couple people complain, but no one really cares. If Toyota truck frames rot out in a year, and it takes a LOT of effort to get Toyota to step up and do something about it, Toyota is praised for looking out for their customers, where any domestic manufacturer would be skewered.

Let BMW make crappy plastic radiator tanks and constantly cracking expansion tanks for 3, 5, and 7 series for over a decade and BMW fans say it's "just something you have to watch for." But, let that happen to ONE Ford or GM model ONE year, and by god, "we'll never buy a car from them again, because they are unreliable."

It's not a matter of Ford or GM doing it worse, but a matter of people giving excuses for the other brands for doing the exact same things.

And of course, there are the snobs who equate cost with prestige and status, and woudn't buy a cheaper domestic product because, no matter how good it might be, it's domestic, so it can't be something to desire.

I bought my 740 because I simply like the way they look and drive, but not because it would be more reliable or have better resale, or have a softer dash, or higher quality than a domestic car. It just happened to be what I wanted at the time. I've bought domestic. I've bought japanese, and French, and British, and German. Who makes it is of zero importance to me.
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      10-16-2009, 09:58 AM   #41
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My God they are desperate to sell something!!! I feel sorry for them!!
Ford is the only american car company having success? I'm not sure what you mean?

I swear, there was another thread where someone was convinced that Ford was a GM division. That's not you is it?
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      10-16-2009, 11:30 AM   #42
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Ford is dying and they are trying anything to get sales.
I disagree.. I think they are doing quite well now that they have consolidated SVT and their European special vehicle programs along with developing their ecoboost engines. They are going to be installing that 3.5 twin turbo V6 in the mustang I believe as well as the "base model", which with a few mods could be quite a monster...
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      10-16-2009, 11:37 AM   #43
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Exactly. Even styling.



Actually, Honda and the Germans will get a pass when something happens. If Toyotas sludge their engines, and Toyota says it's a user problem, well, they just keep selling "reliable cars." A couple people complain, but no one really cares. If Toyota truck frames rot out in a year, and it takes a LOT of effort to get Toyota to step up and do something about it, Toyota is praised for looking out for their customers, where any domestic manufacturer would be skewered.

Let BMW make crappy plastic radiator tanks and constantly cracking expansion tanks for 3, 5, and 7 series for over a decade and BMW fans say it's "just something you have to watch for." But, let that happen to ONE Ford or GM model ONE year, and by god, "we'll never buy a car from them again, because they are unreliable."

It's not a matter of Ford or GM doing it worse, but a matter of people giving excuses for the other brands for doing the exact same things.

And of course, there are the snobs who equate cost with prestige and status, and woudn't buy a cheaper domestic product because, no matter how good it might be, it's domestic, so it can't be something to desire.
And Mike Miller is the biggest proponent of this philosophy. According to Mike, most "modern' BMWs (anything after the E30) need to have radiators and water pumps replaced every 60,000 miles as preventative maintenance for the cooling system. Are you kidding me! If you had someone say that about a American Domestic car, they'd just say "yeah, typical GM/Ford/Mopar quality." How many times has Miller said a BMW automatic transmission is pretty much shot at 100,000 miles?

What does the majority of members on this board belive? Better buy the extended warranty if you plan to keep your BMW past 50,000 miles. I've seen many posts of owners scared shitless as they come up on 50K miles. Funny. They wouldn't even dream of buying domestic.

But we all keep buying BMWs...
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      10-16-2009, 11:53 AM   #44
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And Mike Miller is the biggest proponent of this philosophy. According to Mike, most "modern' BMWs (anything after the E30) need to have radiators and water pumps replaced every 60,000 miles as preventative maintenance for the cooling system. Are you kidding me! If you had someone say that about a American Domestic car, they'd just say "yeah, typical GM/Ford/Mopar quality." How many times has Miller said a BMW automatic transmission is pretty much shot at 100,000 miles?

What does the majority of members on this board belive? Better buy the extended warranty if you plan to keep your BMW past 50,000 miles. I've seen many posts of owners scared shitless as they come up on 50K miles. Funny. They wouldn't even dream of buying domestic.

But we all keep buying BMWs...
Just to throw this in the mess, my family owned an 84 Mustang LX 5.0 for about 8 years. When we finally got rid of it, the engine had over 500,000 miles - NO BS. The tranny had been replaced once, and the body was rusting pretty bad in some places - hatch and a couple wheel wells and passenger door, but that 302 was still running and strong.
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