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      10-12-2009, 08:43 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by shift@red View Post
+100000000000000.

Its funny how the new M (i.e. f10 m5) cars are going to be set up just like the 911 turbo and GTR (AWD and turbos). But differentiating factor is, Porsche WILL STILL MAKE A LIGHTWEIGHT, RWD CAR WITH A WORLD CLASS/BENCHMARK HIGH REVVING N/A ENGINE!
That is why the GT3 is so special and a absolute bargain for a supercar.
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      10-13-2009, 01:40 AM   #46
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[The GTR] made an absolutely mockery/embarassment of every BMW M car ever made. It not only costs about the same price of an m3, but can beat any of them in any performance category
Well not quite. We have already debated the base price vs. base price vs. the base price vs. well optioned price. Either way you look at it you can still choose to get a very reasonably priced "stripper" M3. Looking at things this way it is not quite fair to say $58k is "about the same" as $80k.

The GT-R is a pretty amazing machine but I'll also point out a few key mitigating factors in your argument. I contend the GT-R is not really an M3 competitor. Some cross shop here but most don't. We all know the "real" M3 competitors and they are RS4 (S5), IS-F and C63 AMG. Lastly I'd be willing to bet the profitability of the GT-R is among the lowest in any even near competitor. Why does that matter. It doesn't near term to those buying it - it is great for them. Nissan is simply choosing to buy market from Porsche. One must realize this is not sustainable.
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Last edited by swamp2; 10-13-2009 at 02:06 AM.
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      10-13-2009, 01:52 AM   #47
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As long as BMW fanboys keep making excuses for BMW then BMW Will keep providing M yachts rather than attempt to develop a single competitive car for the track.
Really ruff, enough drama...

Not everyone with something positive, nice or even great to say about BMW or BMW M is a fanboy.

Calling the E9X M3 not competitive at the track is a bit absurd as well. It bests all of its nearest competitors at nearly every track. Pitiful, terrible, unconscionable. Your desire to control the destiny and product direction of the M division and turn back the clock to the good ol days of the E30 M3 is really unfortunate for you. It simply tortures you. Do recall as racy as the E30 M3 was back in the day it was never the fastest car out there nor the best track car. It did many things very well which is exactly what the car still does.

I'd be excited if BMW built a car with the luxury of a Bentley GT, the performance of the GT-R, the fit and finish of the S5, the sound of a Scuderia and at the price of and E46 M3. It just ain't going to happen.
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      10-13-2009, 01:59 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Well not quite. We have already debated the base price vs. base price vs. the base price vs. well optioned price. Either way you look at it you can still choose to get a very reasonably priced "stripper" M3. Looking at things this way it is not quite fair to say $56k is "about the same" as $80k.

The GT-R is a pretty amazing machine but I'll also point out a few key mitigating factors in your argument. I contend the GT-R is not really an M3 competitor. Some cross shop here but most don't. We all know the "real" M3 competitors and they are RS4 (S5), IS-F and C63 AMG.
This may be so but that suits the argument because we all know that the M3 is better than them and when it isn't then it moves into the sector of not really being a 'real' competitor.

Fact is that the M3 primarily is a coupe based on sales worldwide and as such it's main competition should also be coupe, none of your 'real' competitors offer a coupe form to compete with the same level of performance so this argument only stacks up against the M3 saloon. Now back to the coupe, it's got 420hp and weighs roughly 1600kgs, that gives it a PTW of roughly 255hp/T, that means when you remove the price restrains the worlds your oyster, now it includes most forms of 997, the GTR, the C6 Corvette, etc, etc. Sure if practicality is number one on your list then the M3 is probably the best option but then again would you need an M3 in the first place.

No matter how you look at it, the GTR has the M3 comfortably beaten. The only thing that most will find difficult is getting over the name on the back, because the majority are snobs, myself included.
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      10-13-2009, 02:22 AM   #49
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^

OK whatever, consider the E90 instead of the E92. Don't fault BMW for building a coupe, sedan and convertible of which 2 of the 3 perform nearly identical. The thing is they both offer about the same fully usable rear seats.
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      10-13-2009, 02:38 AM   #50
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^

OK whatever, consider the E90 instead of the E92. Don't fault BMW for building a coupe, sedan and convertible of which 2 of the 3 perform nearly identical. The thing is they both offer about the same fully usable rear seats.
I wasn't trying to start something, only highlight that the marketplace isn't as black and white as you think it might be.
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      10-13-2009, 05:41 AM   #51
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IMO: Porsche and BMW have different philosophy. BMW has a much wider product range, more accessible too. They focus on quality cars for everyone. In general: 1 series for younger people/females, 3 and 5 series for executives/families, 6 serie for people seeking an alternative luxury coupe and 7 series for higher class executives. Then you have the SUV's lined up in a similar way, with the x1, x3 and x5, and once again x6 offering the alternative. & you have the M's for sport and speed enthusiasts. On the other side, Porsche is a purely sport-oriented car manufacturer. All of their cars have sporty features, so does their history. I think Porsche makes fantastic cars, and obviously the GT3 is superior in overall track perfromance then the M3, one car was purely built to be good on the track, the other wasnt. When I bought the M3 I knew I wasnt getting the fastest road legal car out there, I believe it to be the best mix of design, quality, comfort, luxury and performance. So due to all this, I think its perfectly normal BMW does not have a direct competitor to the GT3, meanwhile Porsche has no direct competitor to say, the 123 or 320...About the Panameras, I think their main competitor is not the standard 5 or 7 series. It will compete with 5 serie GT (perhaps M5 for performance) and/or Maserati's Quattroporte, and Porsche will still not have a traditional sedan for now..Ive seen the Panamera on the streets and honestly it looks awsome, although I thought its ugly on pictures. Also, if BMW releases the M1 or another supercar, I think they will try to compete with Audi's R8 primarily, and perhaps Porsche Turbo or similar luxury+performance oriented products...not Porsche's GT3...So what I'm trying to say is although I have an M3 and in my eyes its overall the best car, its obvious and perfectly normal that some of Posche's cars have superior performance. Finally, I think Nissan's GT-R, and even more so the GT-R Vspec, is superior to anything Porsche and BMW has to offer at the moment.
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      10-13-2009, 07:45 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by urbo73 View Post
What car ISN'T overpriced for what it really is? You think the M3 is priced "fairly"? It costs less, but one can also say it's overpriced. If you are looking for good "values", don't look at cars - sports cars especially. Or buy used.
First off Urbo73, I did buy my M3 used. I don't like to pay msrp or close to it. Second when I was looking at 911, they were 997.1s (2005 or 2006 models) and even back then they were asking for a lot. How about 60k for a car with 355hp, no bluetooth, no workable nav, crappy speakers, and I can keep on going on. How can you have a car with no bluetooth? BTW when brand new, the 911s was close to a 90-100k car. And everything is a option.

Now consider what you can buy for under 100k today: e92 M3, a GTR, for 110k a Audi R8 (which I think is a true 911 killer). So in that context - Yes the 911 is overpriced for what it is.
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      10-14-2009, 10:06 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ruff View Post
As long as BMW fanboys keep making excuses for BMW then BMW Will keep providing M yachts rather than attempt to develop a single competitive car for the track. Nissan spanked Porsche, yes, so you are also saying Nissan absolutely pummeled anything offered by the M Division. How hilarious is that?:


Panamera? Cayenne? Cayenne and Panamera? Again, Cayenne and Panamera?
In regards to the Cayenne or Panamera, sales numbers prove that these two models are not real players in the specific segment. Just compare sales figures.

Also, I guess our wishes may be answered after all on a BMW M3 that competes with a GT3:

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=311551

CSL? We may see an M1 and M3 CSL afterall. I only hope it makes it to the US.

-SZ
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      10-14-2009, 10:07 AM   #54
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That is why the GT3 is so special and a absolute bargain for a supercar.
See:

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=311551


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