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      09-26-2009, 02:56 PM   #1
lucid
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WGI in my E30 M3

I was at the Glen with my M3 this week. They ran some interesting exercises. We practiced giving point bys into braking zones, and turning in early and trail braking. Since the entire advanced group practiced the drill, the exercise had immediate benefits; you didn't have to wait for a straight to pass (see 3:41 in the video clip) and if you were on the straight coming up to the braking zone, you didn't have to slam on your brakes to get behind the car in front, etc.

It is also a great skill to have in case you realize you are about to go into a corner too hot, and teaches you to turn in early, extend your braking zone into the apex, and trail brake from there if necessary.

The cool thing is that BMW CCA approached this in a structured manner as opposed to people randomly praticing the skill on their own. Actually, passing into turns is not normally allowed in student run groups in BMW CCA events (for a good reason--do you really want people practicing this randomly around you?), but not all clubs have that restriction.

Anyway, the E30 M3 did remarkably well given WGI is a hp track. This was my second event with the car, and after 4 track days with it, I finally started to "get" the car on the 5th day. If you set everything up right before a turn, you can dive in and go WOT before the apex. It's actually not can, but more like should, or otherwise the car gets loose. Obviously, being on power helps in general, but this car really demands it. And if you do it right, the rears really hook up, and you just go! An amazing feeling really. I am also very pleased--even surprised--with the throttle response of the S14. You have so much control, and my drivetrain is bone stock. I must say I am having more fun with it than I did with my E92.

The engineer who maintains the car told me that it should be able to hang with E36 M3s with stock drivetrains. I was a bit skeptical, but it does! Here is a 10 min segment from one of the open track sessions at the end of the day (mix of instructors and group 1 students). I chased an instructor's yellow E36 M3 for about 10 laps, and the E30 pretty much held on.

Finally, 225/50/15 PSCs did really well. Once they warmed up, they stuck like glue, and started singing around the turns. They were more predictable than I expected at the limit, started sliding gradually, and did not snap on me.

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P.S. I am posting this here since the forum does not have an E30 M3 section, and people have been asking me about my experiences with the car.
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      09-26-2009, 03:54 PM   #2
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Lucid,

Nice video and impressive driving. At my last BMW CCA event my instructor took me out in his E30 M3 and it was a blast!
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      09-26-2009, 04:04 PM   #3
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Nice Vid! Great to see the E30 (and the E36 for that matter) get around the track! Looks like a blast!
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      09-26-2009, 06:01 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucid View Post
P.S. I am posting this here since the forum does not have an E30 M3 section, and people have been asking me about my experiences with the car.
Maybe you should be banned

Nice video by the way.
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      09-26-2009, 06:20 PM   #5
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Very nice video Lucid, and good driving to stick with the E36 - fun isn't it. At the BMW club HPDEs I participate in (advance group) allows passing anywhere with a point by, and a lot of passing is done in brakeing zones, turns, and off line. It is a good disipline for all of us to experience, and next to racing, it is a great leaning and teaching tool for us to know. As you say, you quickly learn that you car will do much more than you have normally done driving the "school" line. The last event at VIR with Tarheel, we did a session exercise of side by side at speed, which places each car at an on line and off line position all the way around the track. After a lap or two, we change sides. As I say, this is done at speed, therefore, some passing is necessary as some cars go slower. If you ever get the opportunity to do this, shy of race school, I highly recommend it. You quickly learn how to "trust" the driver you are driving next to.
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      09-26-2009, 06:29 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gearhead999s View Post
Maybe you should be banned
+1

Agreed.
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      09-26-2009, 06:31 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by von_zoom View Post
Very nice video Lucid, and good driving to stick with the E36 - fun isn't it. At the BMW club HPDEs I participate in (advance group) allows passing anywhere with a point by, and a lot of passing is done in brakeing zones, turns, and off line. It is a good disipline for all of us to experience, and next to racing, it is a great leaning and teaching tool for us to know. As you say, you quickly learn that you car will do much more than you have normally done driving the "school" line. The last event at VIR with Tarheel, we did a session exercise of side by side at speed, which places each car at an on line and off line position all the way around the track. After a lap or two, we change sides. As I say, this is done at speed, therefore, some passing is necessary as some cars go slower. If you ever get the opportunity to do this, shy of race school, I highly recommend it. You quickly learn how to "trust" the driver you are driving next to.
vz
I see. I thought they allowed it in instructor groups only in general. I know some chapters have exceptions. I think the White Mountain chapter has the "passing stripes" for instance. If you are trained for passing anywhere, you can put them on, and if the other driver has them as well, then you can pass that car anywhere kind of thing. I am actually planning to attend a club racing school soon.
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      09-27-2009, 08:00 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gearhead999s View Post
Maybe you should be banned

Nice video by the way.
May be we should cut him some slack... Lucid is a good guy. What do you all think??

PS: great driving!
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      09-27-2009, 09:30 AM   #9
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Quote:
I am actually planning to attend a club racing school soon.
Great idea, and it will really help your driving. Some racing schools include the side by side lapping as an exercise, and in some cases, the instructor may even place his car in the middle, so you now have three abreast.

I have noticed that several clubs that I run with allow passing anywhere with a point by, but caution and or/exclude the braking zones. Situation awarness is the key, and one of the reasons why this type of passing is allowed, but limited to advance drivers. The stripe identy is a good idea.

I will cut you some slack on the E30 - M3 video, just so long as you do not post more than one a week.
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      09-27-2009, 09:53 AM   #10
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Lucid, I'm getting a E36 tomorrow that is going to be my track car, so I'll be running a lot more events next season. My goal is to do 5-7 events a season. The ultimate goal is to become an instructor. The E36 is stock so little by little I'll add parts to it and lighten it up.

Next year, I'm hoping to run Mont Tremblant in it, the first weekend in Aug.

Thanks for posting the video, the Glen if my favorite track.

EDIT:Nice lap times. My best is a 2:26 in a stock E36M3, yours were 2:22/2:26/2:25
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Last edited by skierman64; 09-27-2009 at 11:59 AM.
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      09-27-2009, 10:47 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skierman64 View Post
Lucid, I'm getting a E36 tomorrow that is going to be my track car, so I'll be running a lot more events next season. My goal is to do 5-7 events a season. The ultimate goal is to become an instructor. The E36 is stock so little by little I'll add parts to it and lighten it up.

Next year, I'm hoping to run Mont Tremblant in it, the first weekend in Aug.

Thanks for posting the video, the Glen if my favorite track.
Good luck with the E36 purchase. Keep in mind there is considerable cost associated with making a E36 M3 with street miles track worthy. You should replace the control arms before getting on the track because the ball joints have a well documented history of failing under load. You don't want to risk that kind of failure as it happens during a hard g turn. And there is a good chance you'll need to do the bushings and the engine/transmission mounts as those wear out. If you do, go to stiffer (but not solid) parts.

I just had all that done in my E30. The rear trailing arm bushings were gone and the trailing arms had considerable lateral movement and the suspension had slop. That might have contributed to the car being somewhat loose at Mt. Tremblant (as you observed!). And the right engine mount was destroyed and it was sitting on the subframe. Then of course, you should have it caged and all that.

Anyway, you know all this because you owned and tracked your E36, but I thought I'd remind you. The costs do add up, and I kind of did not exactly factor some of them in correctly prior to the purchase.
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      09-27-2009, 10:51 AM   #12
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Great idea, and it will really help your driving.
The problem is that the next one in the NE region is at WGI exactly a year from now. They cancelled this year's CR school because of low participation. I guess I could go south or do it with NASA early next year.
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      09-27-2009, 12:30 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucid View Post
Good luck with the E36 purchase. Keep in mind there is considerable cost associated with making a E36 M3 with street miles track worthy. You should replace the control arms before getting on the track because the ball joints have a well documented history of failing under load. You don't want to risk that kind of failure as it happens during a hard g turn. And there is a good chance you'll need to do the bushings and the engine/transmission mounts as those wear out. If you do, go to stiffer (but not solid) parts.

I just had all that done in my E30. The rear trailing arm bushings were gone and the trailing arms had considerable lateral movement and the suspension had slop. That might have contributed to the car being somewhat loose at Mt. Tremblant (as you observed!). And the right engine mount was destroyed and it was sitting on the subframe. Then of course, you should have it caged and all that.

Anyway, you know all this because you owned and tracked your E36, but I thought I'd remind you. The costs do add up, and I kind of did not exactly factor some of them in correctly prior to the purchase.
Damn, I just lost a long response to this comment. Anyhow, I'm familiar with a lot of the E36 weak points that need to be addressed. So hopefully I won't be surprised too much. I'm planning on with UUC urethane bushings at the front control arm and rear trailing arm bushing. I'm going to have Mike Yaskin go over my car completely, he's a club instructor/racer and mechanic for some BMWCCA class winning drivers. He knows his stuff.

Hopefully, I won't be paying out an arm and a leg, but I plan on doing the safety stuff first and then working on the speed stuff later. If I do it in bits and pieces it should be manageable.

My goal is to do 5-7 events a season and hopefully become an instructor. Hopefully I'll be driving my own car at Mont Tremblant next year.
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      09-27-2009, 01:11 PM   #14
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Hopefully I'll be driving my own car at Mont Tremblant next year.
Yes, you must show up for the whole thing next summer!

I'll be at Thunderbolt with NASA at the end of October in the E30, and at NHMS for two events earlier in the month. Will you make it anyone of those?
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      09-27-2009, 04:39 PM   #15
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+1

Agreed.
Your wish is my command...

Great video L. Now I know what your car looks like from inside.


Best regards,
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      09-27-2009, 05:15 PM   #16
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Your wish is my command...
So, I'm banned now?
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      09-27-2009, 05:26 PM   #17
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So, I'm banned now?
Considering the 6MT Club revenue it was hard to resist, but no, you aren't. You know I'm just kidding?


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      09-27-2009, 06:02 PM   #18
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It's all good S.
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      10-01-2009, 12:36 PM   #19
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Awesome to see and hear you're having so much fun with the new car! Can't wait to see and maybe drive it at NJMP

I had a scare with rotors but I'll be driving my own car at the Glen this weekend with NASA. Sorry you couldn't make it
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      10-01-2009, 12:51 PM   #20
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Awesome to see and hear you're having so much fun with the new car! Can't wait to see and maybe drive it at NJMP

I had a scare with rotors but I'll be driving my own car at the Glen this weekend with NASA. Sorry you couldn't make it
Hey Kieran. I hope your rotors work out at the Glen. I'll see you at Thunderbolt for sure. I think Friday is open track. I've never driven Thunderbolt so maybe you can drive the E30 and show me around then.
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