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      09-29-2009, 01:26 PM   #1
mastek
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SS Lines (any real difference)

Anyone like certain SS Lines better then others for specific reasons?
Fitment?

Arent they all from the same place? (BF Goodrich)

Just wondering if anyone knows of a real difference between all these SS Lines: StopTech, BFG, these look nice (pricey, tho)http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=305157
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      09-29-2009, 01:42 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mastek View Post
Anyone like certain SS Lines better then others for specific reasons?
Fitment?

Arent they all from the same place? (BF Goodrich)

Just wondering if anyone knows of a real difference between all these SS Lines: StopTech, BFG, these look nice (pricey, tho)http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=305157
It's actually Goodridge. Most kits (including the APs) use the Goodridge lines.

Source: http://www.goodridge.net/
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      09-29-2009, 01:42 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mastek View Post
Anyone like certain SS Lines better then others for specific reasons?
Fitment?

Arent they all from the same place? (BF Goodrich)

Just wondering if anyone knows of a real difference between all these SS Lines: StopTech, BFG, these look nice (pricey, tho)http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=305157
I bought and installed this set: http://www.ecstuning.com/BMW-E90-M3-...ines/ES257353/

As long as it they are SS, made to fit and have a protecting coating, pretty much all the lines are the same to me.
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      09-29-2009, 01:50 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tom @ eas View Post
It's actually Goodridge. Most kits (including the APs) use the Goodridge lines.

Source: http://www.goodridge.net/
oops - thanks
thought they are the same company
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      09-29-2009, 01:51 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Technic View Post
I bought and installed this set: http://www.ecstuning.com/BMW-E90-M3-...ines/ES257353/

As long as it they are SS, made to fit and have a protecting coating, pretty much all the lines are the same to me.
thats what I figured -- so far -- and experienced
just thought I'd raise a flag and see if there were any serious debates about this.

Fanks
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      10-02-2009, 08:14 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Technic View Post
I bought and installed this set: http://www.ecstuning.com/BMW-E90-M3-...ines/ES257353/

As long as it they are SS, made to fit and have a protecting coating, pretty much all the lines are the same to me.
Did you actually install the mid-section that comes with the rear lines in that set? My understanding is that replacing the mid-section requires dropping the rear subframe, which is kind of an excessive thing to do just for the lines. My Stoptech SS kit does not have that section for that reason.
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      10-02-2009, 08:17 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mastek View Post
thats what I figured -- so far -- and experienced
just thought I'd raise a flag and see if there were any serious debates about this.

Fanks
I installed the Stoptech lines and upgraded to Castrol fluid from ATE at the same time as I was having issues with pedal feel after hot laps. Those modifications improved pedal feel and it had less travel. Since I did those mods at the same time, I can't say which one caused what exactly.
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      10-02-2009, 12:26 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucid View Post
Did you actually install the mid-section that comes with the rear lines in that set? My understanding is that replacing the mid-section requires dropping the rear subframe, which is kind of an excessive thing to do just for the lines. My Stoptech SS kit does not have that section for that reason.
curious about this too .... but I suppose someone would be hard-pressed to feel a difference between the 6-line kit vs. 4-line kit ... since the extra 2 lines are in the rear.
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      10-02-2009, 12:32 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucid View Post
Did you actually install the mid-section that comes with the rear lines in that set? My understanding is that replacing the mid-section requires dropping the rear subframe, which is kind of an excessive thing to do just for the lines. My Stoptech SS kit does not have that section for that reason.
Are you referring to the pair of hoses (#7) here?



These hoses are easily accessible, the subframe does not need to be touched.

The AP kit came with all 6 hoses, I would assume Goodrich is doing the same for those that purchase seperately.
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      10-02-2009, 01:17 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tom @ eas View Post
Are you referring to the pair of hoses (#7) here?



These hoses are easily accessible, the subframe does not need to be touched.

The AP kit came with all 6 hoses, I would assume Goodrich is doing the same for those that purchase seperately.
Yes, that is the part I am referring to.

Dave Zeckhausen, who is a high volume distributor of Stoptech products, made the comment about the need to lower the subframe when I posed this exact question earlier this year in this thread:

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=257578

So, who is right? Have you replaced that part yourself without touching the subframe?
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      10-02-2009, 01:17 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucid View Post
Did you actually install the mid-section that comes with the rear lines in that set? My understanding is that replacing the mid-section requires dropping the rear subframe, which is kind of an excessive thing to do just for the lines. My Stoptech SS kit does not have that section for that reason.
Yes, actually those are the easiest and fastest to replace... the other lines are metal, as you can see in the illustration above.
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      10-02-2009, 01:28 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Technic View Post
Yes, actually those are the easiest and fastest to replace... the other lines are metal, as you can see in the illustration above.
Yes, I realize the other lines metal and don't need to be modified. Sounds like Tom is right and that there is no need to mess with the subframe. I was told that wasn't possible (see the thread I referenced above). Maybe Dave Zeckhausen was thinking about the E46 M3 or another car? Who knows...I'd better purchase those 2 parts seperately and install them then. Thanks.
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      10-02-2009, 01:32 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucid View Post
Yes, I realize the other lines metal and don't need to be modified. Sounds like Tom is right and that there is no need to mess with the subframe. I was told that wasn't possible (see the thread I referenced above). Maybe Dave Zeckhausen was thinking about the E46 M3 or another car? Who knows...I'd better purchase those 2 parts seperately and install them then. Thanks.
Not sure what Dave was referring to, but it's easily accessible from underneath the car.

Yes - those were replaced when the AP7100/7150 BBK kits were installed.
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      10-02-2009, 01:41 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tom @ eas View Post
Not sure what Dave was referring to, but it's easily accessible from underneath the car.

Yes - those were replaced when the AP7100/7150 BBK kits were installed.
I will post this info in the other thread to clarify. Thanks.
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      10-02-2009, 02:05 PM   #15
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Good thread. I am planning to add SS lines next time I flush the brake fluid, probably next spring for the beginning of the driving season.

On a related note, if SS lines are so much better, why doesn't BMW include them in the stock setup? What are the pros and cons of SS and Rubber lines, besides cost of course?

Thanks.
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      10-02-2009, 02:41 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrenchBoy View Post
Good thread. I am planning to add SS lines next time I flush the brake fluid, probably next spring for the beginning of the driving season.

On a related note, if SS lines are so much better, why doesn't BMW include them in the stock setup? What are the pros and cons of SS and Rubber lines, besides cost of course?

Thanks.
I am not sure if the SS lines resulted in the improved pedal feel and travel I experienced since I moved to Castrol fluid at the same time. Regardless, they are supposed to flex less, especially when the fluid is hot, and I guess one could argue that they are also less likely to degenerate over time, and therefore, might be safer, but I haven't seen any evidence on that one. About the pedal feel improvement, of course, one can always argue that is just perception since there is no objective test that I've seen with this car on that one either.
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      10-02-2009, 06:43 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrenchBoy View Post
Good thread. I am planning to add SS lines next time I flush the brake fluid, probably next spring for the beginning of the driving season.

On a related note, if SS lines are so much better, why doesn't BMW include them in the stock setup? What are the pros and cons of SS and Rubber lines, besides cost of course?

Thanks.
Simple cost like everything else that this M3 should have but does not, I guess...
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      10-02-2009, 07:15 PM   #18
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I doubt you can feel ANY difference with just lines, when you're braking with your foot aided by a booster (vacuum assisted). I can BARELY feel the difference on a motorcycle, which has no booster and we're braking with our fingers. Of course the only exception is BMW bikes with servo brakes (like my K1200), where I wouldn't bother either.

But the other aspects, like degeneration over time, etc., are valid points. I'd only replace them if I tracked my car, but more for safety than feel. Good day.
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      10-02-2009, 07:46 PM   #19
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I doubt you can feel ANY difference with just lines, when you're braking with your foot aided by a booster (vacuum assisted). I can BARELY feel the difference on a motorcycle, which has no booster and we're braking with our fingers. Of course the only exception is BMW bikes with servo brakes (like my K1200), where I wouldn't bother either.

But the other aspects, like degeneration over time, etc., are valid points. I'd only replace them if I tracked my car, but more for safety than feel. Good day.
I don't know much about the specifics of the brake circuit, so I'll think out loud here. The booster is on the input side of the master cylinder and drives the first master cylinder piston, which indirectly drives the second piston, and the two pistons force the fluid out into the brakes lines, right? So, once the two pistons travel enough so that the reservoir ports are sealed, you have whatever fluid you have in the brake lines at that point (sealed circuit). From then on the more pressure you apply on the pedal, the more pressure the booster will apply to the pistons, and the more pressure you will have in the sealed lines. However, since you have a closed volume on the other side, if the lines flex/expand and try to foce an increase in the volume of the sealed circuit, which can't happen since the fluid cannot expand, the master cylinder pistons will move further forward (since the caliper pistons are still under pressure and won't move back), and the pedal will drop lower. So the booster has nothing to do with keeping the volume of the closed circuit constant, and simply amplifies your pedal force to drive the initial master cylinder piston, and if the lines flex, your pedal will drop lower than it would if you had SS lines, which do not flex (as much). A somewhat similar issue with boiling brake fluid since that reduces the incompressible (fluid) volume and the master cylinder pistons will move further forward and the pedal will drop lower than they should while braking (once the reservoir ports are sealed).

That would be consistent with my experience after the upgrade: my pedal felt "firmer" in the sense that it did not seem to continue to drop while braking the way it with the rubber lines + ATE fluid.

Re: degeneration. Even with the SS lines, the lines are still rubber. It's just that the steel reinforcements would keep the rubber from flexing, so it might degenerate less? Also, if there was impact, the chances of the line being damaged/severed would be decreased?
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      10-05-2009, 03:39 PM   #20
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I've replaced brake lines to SS lines on three cars. I have never felt a difference in pedal feel from SS lines alone. Perhaps I'm just insensitive, but I really could not feel any difference.
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      10-05-2009, 05:03 PM   #21
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I don't feel any difference on the street either. Did you track your car and beat up on the brakes? That's when the pedal drops--when things heat up drastically. That is my perception.
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      10-05-2009, 05:10 PM   #22
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The only way I've ever noticed a difference on the street is by changing lines and pads at the same time. I agree with Lucid though, on the track SS lines and high-temp brake fluid will make a difference .
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