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      09-24-2009, 01:35 PM   #23
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I don't think I've ever doubted you or what you know, but 60-90k ? you can buy a complete M5 for that. who would spend that on a motor alone?
The one thing people seem to forget is that other people DO NOT have the same tastes & styles that others might have. I personally HATED the look of the M5 when it first came out...it has grown on me, but still I don't like it as much as I like the look of the E9x M3. So doing something like the V10 or Stroker V8 would allow someone to keep the look of the car they love & make it more of a beast at the same time. That said, there is also the "I HAVE THIS UNIQUE CAR" concept & feeling you get for doing something like this!

I personally was victim to this, unfortunately. Back in '04 I bought an AEV (American Expidition Vehicle) 5.7L Hemi Rubicon, the VERY FIRST one to a customer & was so modded out from out of the box, it was a $73K Jeep Rubicon!!! I was big into off-roading as much as I'm into ///M3s. I'm not telling this to brag, but to bring light to what you are saying. In hind sight, it was a waste of money (I sold it this past July for $23k) but it turned heads & EVERY person that saw or heard it was insanely jealous & loving it at the same time. THAT is what you get for paying for something like this.

I'm a little in the same boat with my Dinan S3-R E46 M3...I origionally wanted to have an unique street drivable show car...Believe me, there is more than the origional price of the car put into it in mods when all is said & done! I wouldn't get anything near what I would like if I sold it, so I'm gonna be tracking it more now, unless I do decide to sell it. In hind sight, I wish I would have just bought a slightly used 360 Modena for how much I put into it, but when I was in the moment buying the mods, it sure felt great & I didn't care about the cost...economy was much better then too!!!

That is the exact feeling someone who does this will have when they do this...But YES, they will probably regret it later! But hay, we love to mod our cars. If we wanted to really be thrifty with money, we wouldn't be driving what we do.
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      09-24-2009, 06:54 PM   #24
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      09-26-2009, 10:56 PM   #25
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Take a look at the following thread, and look at post #64. The cost of that particular conversion is $90,000 USD -- albeit those are $Euro conversions to USD.

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=301846

Whenever we've calculated the costs of the conversion ourselves, we would regularly come up with $60,000-$70,000 -- but that also included stroking the V10 at the same time. So without stroking the V10, I would think the best-case cost of the V10 conversion would be approximately $40,000-$50,000. And by the time you sort out all of the special car programming needs, I'd put the cost closer to $50,000 than $40,000.
PG, did you ever sort out the drop off in the middle of the torque curve on your stroker motor?
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      09-27-2009, 02:31 AM   #26
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even though the dinan costs a bit more i would take that if i was to go stroker bc i would still have my warranty. then again if you got the money to do that you prob don't care about that lol. hence why i don't have a stroker lol

they are both awesome without a doubt and would love to have one
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      09-27-2009, 03:36 PM   #27
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yeah i assumed that being the whole motor was taken out, i just liked the fact dinan gives you a 4/50 warranty with it. i wasn't sure what RD's was but i was sure you would get some kind of warranty with it like you just stated. what is RD's by the way with the stroker??

i always liked that the other Dinan mods were never an issue with warranty for me. i had a Dinan S2 E46 M and a Dinan E39 S2 M and never had a problem ever going to the dealer for warranty work. where other friends of mine always talked trash about dinan and got other mods and always always had issues when bringing there cars in for warranty work. me personally wouldn't want the headaches. i know they have to prove the mod caused the issue but fact is there wasn't one time they didn't have probelms at the dealer and even mod happy dealers. and half the time after all the fighting they didn't cover what there problem was

i know the stroker puts everything into another category though as it is a whole new motor etc

how is that beast by the way?? any regrets?? i'm sure you don't as why wouldn't it be awesome lol

thanks

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Keep in mind, you lose your BMW motor warranty with your Dinan stroker -- in the same manner you lose your motor warranty with the RD Sport stroker. Both companies pick up the motor warranty themselves. So don't be lulled into the misbelief that you still have your factory MOTOR warranty with your Dinan stroker -- because you don't.
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      09-27-2009, 08:02 PM   #28
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Robert, I wasn't pushing one engine over the other. So I guess I was right when I said it's not a penny less than $30k. I still think it is way too much to spend 40-50% of the cost of the vehicle in mods. JMO If it's not a secret then why not list the price on the their website like Dinan(we all know is more expensive with everything they sell, but at least they are open about their pricing)? I know the RD is a great buy 'relatively' speaking. My only point was that expecting Dinan, or anybody else for that matter(RD), to offer this setup for $10k is unrealistic, that's all. BTW, like mentioned above the Dinan engine is now $22,999

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If recovery of investment is part of the equation, I'm sure 12K, they would sell 2x - 3x more kits then at 22K. I'm curious how much of the 22K is parts and how much is research and development recovery.
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      09-27-2009, 09:35 PM   #29
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If recovery of investment is part of the equation, I'm sure 12K, they would sell 2x - 3x more kits then at 22K. I'm curious how much of the 22K is parts and how much is research and development recovery.
I'm sure Ferrari would sell 100x more 458's if they were priced at $50,000. It's not all money, it's also prestige and branding. But $22,000 is pretty competitive, it puts more stress on other companies (Stroker and S/C).
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      09-27-2009, 11:40 PM   #30
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I'm sure Ferrari would sell 100x more 458's if they were priced at $50,000. It's not all money, it's also prestige and branding. But $22,000 is pretty competitive, it puts more stress on other companies (Stroker and S/C).
I completely agree. What I don't agree with is it being a third of the price of the car. Every product has a sweet point. I'm not claiming to know what it is. I'm just saying in my opinion 20K+ is not for this car. For a car priced at 100K like the GT3, then yes.

Personally for me, 12-15K after all is said and done, is the tipping point for a 60K car.
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      09-28-2009, 12:09 AM   #31
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i agree but i don't think most realize the amount of testing and R&D that goes into making something like the 4.6 stroker whether it is Dinans or RD's

if they sold it for 12k they prob would go out of business in my op

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I completely agree. What I don't agree with is it being a third of the price of the car. Every product has a sweet point. I'm not claiming to know what it is. I'm just saying in my opinion 20K+ is not for this car. For a car priced at 100K like the GT3, then yes.

Personally for me, 12-15K after all is said and done, is the tipping point for a 60K car.
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      09-28-2009, 12:31 AM   #32
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i agree but i don't think most realize the amount of testing and R&D that goes into making something like the 4.6 stroker whether it is Dinans or RD's

if they sold it for 12k they prob would go out of business in my op

You are assuming that that they sell the same amount of kits at 12k versus 20k. I do understand the amount of R&D but I don't agree with your statement if it came down to pure economics. If it's about exclusivity then that is understood but I bet at 12k they sell 3x the kits making equal or more profit.

Your statement doesn't hold. Example, it cost the price of getting to the moon to build Windows. They sell it at 299.99. It's all about economics of scale.

27k or whatever you want to argue is not the price point for this buyer of this car. This is way dinan lowered it to 22K. Even at that price I doubt they will find buyers. Look at RDSport, half the buyers were 'development' models who can't discuss the price. You can Be guranteed it is alot less then the asking price.
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      09-28-2009, 09:15 AM   #33
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i hear you, i just don't think they would ever sell it at that price. hell if it was 12k i would buy one but your right at even 22k i won't

i just think at 12k they wouldn't equal profits, but hey you never know. if it was a good economy maybe but then they would never lower it to that

i agree with you though for this car it is not priced right

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You are assuming that that they sell the same amount of kits at 12k versus 20k. I do understand the amount of R&D but I don't agree with your statement if it came down to pure economics. If it's about exclusivity then that is understood but I bet at 12k they sell 3x the kits making equal or more profit.

Your statement doesn't hold. Example, it cost the price of getting to the moon to build Windows. They sell it at 299.99. It's all about economics of scale.

27k or whatever you want to argue is not the price point for this buyer of this car. This is way dinan lowered it to 22K. Even at that price I doubt they will find buyers. Look at RDSport, half the buyers were 'development' models who can't discuss the price. You can Be guranteed it is alot less then the asking price.
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      09-29-2009, 12:17 AM   #34
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hell if it was 12k i would buy one
Me too. That is 2 extra sales right there. 24K I'm sure there would be plenty of others as well. Additionally, it would curb the sales of anyone thinking of a going SC. For this particular product, everytime someone goes SC, you automatically lose a potential customer and shrink the marketplace. It's an OR and not an AND scenario for these competing products.

If I was in the stroker business, Dinan and RDSport wouldn't be the one I would be concerned with. I would be more concerned with the competing supercharger market and it's march towards maturity.
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      09-29-2009, 01:09 AM   #35
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There's a little problem with the assumption of economies of scale in this particular case; it's not a high volume product by nature and it never will be.

1) The sheer cost of parts for the RD motor (I can't say for Dinan since I haven't seen manufacturer receipts, but I'm positive it's high as well) is higher than the MSRP of supercharger kits currently on the market. It doesn't use a single off the shelf part. The labour cost of actually having an extremely skilled technician dismantle and rebuild the entire motor is fixed as well, plus the cost of having someone equally skilled increase the bore size of the block (your average shop cannot do it with enough precision). In addition, the cost of the exhaust, headers, etc... which are all hand made and included in the price in RD's case.

2) The companies that manufacture the pistons, crank, rods, etc... for RD are all of the highest quality and world renowned in both the OEM and racing worlds. Even if RD built fifty motors, that pales in comparison to BMW building tens of thousands, or a race team building hundreds of motors and the associated re-builds.

3) The idea of bulk purchasing to reduce costs only applies if all parts are ordered at one time. Does it make sense for either Dinan or RD to buy eighty pistons, ten cranks, etc... and stock them for the next ten potential customers? Absolutely not since the cost outlay would be enormous, and it's not worth having these parts sit on a shelf. Plus I don't think there would even be a substantial discount on many of the parts even by ordering enough for ten motors.

It is absolutely impossible to build a stroker motor for this car for $12k or $15k. Even if you sold 2x-3x as much there would be very little parts cost benefit to the manufacturer, and the resulting losses would be huge.

If you don't see the inherent value of the parts and labour associated with a fully rebuilt motor then most likely a supercharger will give you everything you want. Does it give more bang for your buck? Is it better value for money? Those answers depend on where your priorities lie.
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      09-29-2009, 01:19 AM   #36
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I agree with you guys. Well over $30K ($22K plus install plus additional parts and install) to get to a true 503 hp is a ton of money to pay for an extra ~90 HP. If you instead use that money to get a slightly used GT3, you get a car that performs better in most ways, AND holds its value much better (you won't recoup much of the cost of the 4.6L; GT3s hold their value quite well).

If the total price, including install, was <$20K an argument can be made.

Seems no matter how much they charge for the kit if they sell almost 0 then they will never re-coup their costs.
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      09-29-2009, 01:34 AM   #37
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There's a little problem with the assumption of economies of scale in this particular case; it's not a high volume product by nature and it never will be.

1) The sheer cost of parts for the RD motor (I can't say for Dinan since I haven't seen manufacturer receipts, but I'm positive it's high as well) is higher than the MSRP of supercharger kits currently on the market. It doesn't use a single off the shelf part. The labour cost of actually having an extremely skilled technician dismantle and rebuild the entire motor is fixed as well, plus the cost of having someone equally skilled increase the bore size of the block (your average shop cannot do it with enough precision). In addition, the cost of the exhaust, headers, etc... which are all hand made and included in the price in RD's case.

2) The companies that manufacture the pistons, crank, rods, etc... for RD are all of the highest quality and world renowned in both the OEM and racing worlds. Even if RD built fifty motors, that pales in comparison to BMW building tens of thousands, or a race team building hundreds of motors and the associated re-builds.

3) The idea of bulk purchasing to reduce costs only applies if all parts are ordered at one time. Does it make sense for either Dinan or RD to buy eighty pistons, ten cranks, etc... and stock them for the next ten potential customers? Absolutely not since the cost outlay would be enormous, and it's not worth having these parts sit on a shelf. Plus I don't think there would even be a substantial discount on many of the parts even by ordering enough for ten motors.

It is absolutely impossible to build a stroker motor for this car for $12k or $15k. Even if you sold 2x-3x as much there would be very little parts cost benefit to the manufacturer, and the resulting losses would be huge.

If you don't see the inherent value of the parts and labour associated with a fully rebuilt motor then most likely a supercharger will give you everything you want. Does it give more bang for your buck? Is it better value for money? Those answers depend on where your priorities lie.
Thanks for posting. Bingo. Thanks for clearing up the cost of parts. That was the question mark.

With the information you posted, the product price seems reasonable in relations to the cost of raw parts. Though I still don't think it matches the target vehicle, but I guess that is up to the market.

110K + 30K sounds a lot more reasonable compared to 60K + 30K.

Strokers are definitely going to be rare and exclusive.

Props to those who can swallow that bill. The car is a beast! I've driven one.
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      02-23-2010, 01:02 AM   #38
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I'm getting a Dinan motor

Call me crazy, but -- yes -- I can afford one and I'm spending the "dime" to get one. Here's my reasoning and it's two fold: First, it's a Dinan and from what I understand BMW has a special relationship with them compared to others. I've been told that your car is registered in BMW's systems as a Dinan car and you get to keep your warranty because of it. I looked at a number of superchargers, but don't want to have to buy a new motor just yet...simply because there's not enough history with them and the warranty evaporates the second you start the car. Naturally aspirated power like the Dinan motor (at worse) is a pretty decent foundation (stronger bottom end) for a supercharger later, which is still a consideration for my car. Second, and it's pure speculation, there are not that many cars that will be equipped with a Dinan registered motor in it. I've dabbled in Pontiac GTO's over the years and some of these cars, with the right options and low production numbers, do appreciate...handsomely if you ever owned a "bobcat" GTO or a Ram Air IV (I consider the GTO to be the BMW of today from a production performance perspective but I realize many would disagree). I plan on driving my car, but I also plan on taking care of it. If it appreciates over time, great. And if it doesn't I won't lose a wink of sleep. When this M3 came out I made it a point to get one and enjoy it because it was the first V8 M3 ever made. Getting it "Dinanized" only enhances the M3 experience even more to me (heck, I won't be able to take it with me so I might as well enjoy it while I'm here). Will this M3 hold up over time? My guess is that BMW will try hard to make the next generation M3 faster and better, but I'm betting against it. A V8 is a powerful motor on its own and this one is no slouch. The only real disadvantage with this car is that there won't be enough production out there to get the aftermarket companies to invest in real R&D to develop enough parts to make this thing a real legend. Again, I know a bunch of you have your own opinion (and some of you might be right), but I'm willing to take that chance with the Dinan motor and see what happens. I'll keep you posted on how the "upgrade" performs when I get it back in a few weeks. Thanks for letting me share my thoughts on this.
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      02-24-2010, 10:41 AM   #39
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It takes a certain breed of customer who drops $70k on a car and another $30k in mods. Most would go for the 100k car and leave it stock.
oh Jesus, I think I'm in crap then!! In my case 120K for the car plus $43k for mods
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But it sure as hell is better than any $163K car in my book, same price as an M3 GTS and better in my opinion
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      02-24-2010, 10:47 AM   #40
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Call me crazy, but -- yes -- I can afford one and I'm spending the "dime" to get one. Here's my reasoning and it's two fold: First, it's a Dinan and from what I understand BMW has a special relationship with them compared to others. I've been told that your car is registered in BMW's systems as a Dinan car and you get to keep your warranty because of it. I looked at a number of superchargers, but don't want to have to buy a new motor just yet...simply because there's not enough history with them and the warranty evaporates the second you start the car. Naturally aspirated power like the Dinan motor (at worse) is a pretty decent foundation (stronger bottom end) for a supercharger later, which is still a consideration for my car. Second, and it's pure speculation, there are not that many cars that will be equipped with a Dinan registered motor in it. I've dabbled in Pontiac GTO's over the years and some of these cars, with the right options and low production numbers, do appreciate...handsomely if you ever owned a "bobcat" GTO or a Ram Air IV (I consider the GTO to be the BMW of today from a production performance perspective but I realize many would disagree). I plan on driving my car, but I also plan on taking care of it. If it appreciates over time, great. And if it doesn't I won't lose a wink of sleep. When this M3 came out I made it a point to get one and enjoy it because it was the first V8 M3 ever made. Getting it "Dinanized" only enhances the M3 experience even more to me (heck, I won't be able to take it with me so I might as well enjoy it while I'm here). Will this M3 hold up over time? My guess is that BMW will try hard to make the next generation M3 faster and better, but I'm betting against it. A V8 is a powerful motor on its own and this one is no slouch. The only real disadvantage with this car is that there won't be enough production out there to get the aftermarket companies to invest in real R&D to develop enough parts to make this thing a real legend. Again, I know a bunch of you have your own opinion (and some of you might be right), but I'm willing to take that chance with the Dinan motor and see what happens. I'll keep you posted on how the "upgrade" performs when I get it back in a few weeks. Thanks for letting me share my thoughts on this.
I would love to go this route but shipping engines to the US from where I am, is just crazy money, tempting though but a really cant go any further
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      02-24-2010, 11:07 AM   #41
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I have driven a customer's Dinan 4.6L E9x M3

Will be happy to answer any questions off the forum
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      02-24-2010, 11:41 AM   #42
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I laugh when I look at that engine and see the "Add to cart" button.
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      02-24-2010, 01:06 PM   #43
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I have driven a customer's Dinan 4.6L E9x M3

Will be happy to answer any questions off the forum
Why must they be off the forum LOl?
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      02-24-2010, 01:11 PM   #44
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I have driven a customer's Dinan 4.6L E9x M3

Will be happy to answer any questions off the forum
Why making it a secret Sam?
Everybody wants to know the difference between the RD and the Dinan upgrade!
But to be honest - i would be surprised if the Dinan engine would win in your rating...
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